Phoenix Coyotes close to moving to Winnipeg

[bunomatic]

In order for Bettman to start moving teams out of the southern markets what he has to do first is admit he was wrong and that arrogant little weasel will never admit to that.Remember,this is a guy that begins sentences with 'thus'.He truly believes that he is smarter than everyone so he has nothing left to learn.I have a feeling that as soon as the majority of his bosses realize he's led them down the garden path and get tired of transfer payments to losing markets they'll fire him.When that happens we'll see the league not only become smaller with contraction but teams will move.They've moved south,they can move north.The loonie will be worth more than the greenback by summer anyways so that'll work in the Canadian markets favor as well.Rabid hockey crazy canucks fill buildings.Thats something that does'nt happen in southern markets.

[FogBat]

In order for Bettman to start moving teams out of the southern markets what he has to do first is admit he was wrong and that arrogant little weasel will never admit to that.Remember,this is a guy that begins sentences with 'thus'.He truly believes that he is smarter than everyone so he has nothing left to learn.I have a feeling that as soon as the majority of his bosses realize he's led them down the garden path and get tired of transfer payments to losing markets they'll fire him.When that happens we'll see the league not only become smaller with contraction but teams will move.They've moved south,they can move north.The loonie will be worth more than the greenback by summer anyways so that'll work in the Canadian markets favor as well.Rabid hockey crazy canucks fill buildings.Thats something that does'nt happen in southern markets.

Have you ever been on I-95 in the Carolinas and Georgia? If you haven't, the next time you do so, look and see how many cars pass you that have Quebec license plates. Perhaps they could relocate a few of those teams to, say, Fayetteville, NC, Florence, SC, Savannah, GA, and Jacksonville, FL.

 

j/k, but you know them crazy Canucks gotta have their hockey fix.

[darksabre]

You can go to which ever site you want to, i never said don't, but, don't expect miracles with that site. They know just as much as if me and you started a rumor page..... which is absolutely nothing.

 

That's bullsh*t and you know it. When you start calling trade deadline deals with Dreger and SourcesSay, you come let me know.

[Two or less]

I'm man enough to admit when i'm wrong, and it looks like i was wrong here. Looks like this web site d4rksabre posted actually did have some inside information to them afterall.....

 

This from Nick Kypreos from tonight-

 

RealKyper Hearing some truth to the report of billionaire Thomson in play to move PHO to Winnipeg. An deal in principle that dates back to Olympics.

 

[Hank]

I still think the yotes will stay in Phoenix, and I think they should.

[henysgol]

This thread is a waste of bytes. The Coyotes aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

 

Indeed. And if they do move, it's going to be to Kansas City. I just have this feeling KC is next. And if one of the SE teams move, it will be to Seattle. Then the Nashville Predators will be placed in the SE division where they belong. A lot of the fans and the media down here really wonder why they're not already in the SE.

[henysgol]

Have you ever been on I-95 in the Carolinas and Georgia? If you haven't, the next time you do so, look and see how many cars pass you that have Quebec license plates. Perhaps they could relocate a few of those teams to, say, Fayetteville, NC, Florence, SC, Savannah, GA, and Jacksonville, FL.

 

j/k, but you know them crazy Canucks gotta have their hockey fix.

 

Not only the Canadian transplants, but the Northern U.S. transplants down here as well. Carolina LOVES their Hurricanes, Nashville LOVES their Predators. Atlanta is very adamant about keeping their Thrashers, believe it or not. If any Southern team goes bye bye, I think it'll be one of the Florida teams.

[ntjacks79]

I'm man enough to admit when i'm wrong, and it looks like i was wrong here. Looks like this web site d4rksabre posted actually did have some inside information to them afterall.....

 

This from Nick Kypreos from tonight-

 

 

 

If this is true, good for Winnipeg. It's a good hockey town as long as it has an up-to-date arena. I don't think many non-Canadian players are going to relish the thought of being a Winnipeg Jet (weather and size of city) but it's a trade-off for NHL jobs. Honestly, however, Quebec City deserves a team more than Winnipeg if we're moving teams to Canada. There seem to be three Canadian options if the NHL is interested... another team in Ontario, Winnipeg, and Quebec. If you took the worst performing US franchises and put them in those three places, it would probably be good for the league. On the other hand, the less teams there are in the US, the less likely there will be a good US TV contract - something I know Bettman realizes.

[JCBoston]

This thread is a waste of bytes. The Coyotes aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

 

Don't worry, we'll make more.

[svedishsven]

in 2008, phoenix averaged 14,000 per game. Well below a sellout. but if Winnipeg can only hold 15,000, they aren't better off going there.

 

Say the average ticket price is $50.00 over 41 games that's 28.7 million in ticket sales if the game is in Phoenix at their average attendance...

If the game is in Winnipeg and it's a sellout: 30.75 million. But it's in Canadian coin. which translates to 29.5MM USD.

 

Add in concession and souvenir sales and jersey sales, etc (I couldn't find figures on this but i'd assume it's well over the .8 million difference).. it's well worth it to stay in Phoenix if Winnipeg is the only option.

 

Some of you are probably saying can't they just jack up the ticket price in Winnipeg? Probably they could, but Canada is feeling the recession just as much as we are and it's not like Winnipeg is a bigger market. Winnipeg and the surrounding area has a population of 1.2MM while in just the city (not counting any suburbs), Phoenix is 1.3 million.

 

While I love the idea of the Jets being back in the league it just doesn't make financial sense to me to put it back in Winnipeg where it's already failed.

 

How do you guys think a team in Seattle would do?

 

This is a highly ignorant comment. You have obviously done little to no research...

 

In their BEST season (1996-97), Phoenix averaged 15,604. These numbers have recently been discovered to be false anyways.

 

http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/6/3/897211/the-coyotes-attendance-figures

 

Former owner of the Coyotes, Jerry Moyes was discovered to be buying his own tickets so that he would meet the NHL's minimum attendance figures to receive revenue sharing. Actual in-game attendance across 2006-2009 was around 11,200 with ticket sales averaging about 1000 more (in reality). When the NHL gave up on Winnipeg, the team was averaging roughly 13,000 fans in attendance (which was fairly close to capacity).

 

It's true, Winnipeg's largest arena (MTS centre) has a hockey capacity of 15,015. If the Vancouver's AHL affiliate, Manitoba Moose is any indication, then there's a market for hockey in Winnipeg. The Moose are considered the AHL's most sought after place to play. Twice, the NHL has gone to Winnipeg for Pre-season games. In 2006, the Oilers and Coyotes played in front of a sold out MTS Centre crowd and in 2008, Calgary and Phoenix attracted a crowd of 12,621 (Keeping in mind...PRE-SEASON).

 

This is all beside the point, which is that Phoenix is bankrupt due to the fact that they have a terrible deal with their current home, Jobing.com Arena. Even if the Phoenix Coyotes sold out every seat in the building at their season ticket prices, they would still lose money. For the 2009 season, the Coyotes have tickets priced as low as $10... in comparison, Canadian markets like Calgary and Edmonton charge a minimum of $32 and $45 for general admission; AND these teams sell out regularly (Calgary has had a sold out attendance of 19,289 since 2005).

 

There is absolutely no reason why the NHL shouldn't come back to Winnipeg. I still believe they won't because the NHL is currently run by a smegma licking American who refuses to move any market North of the border.

[Wayne VanDorp]

Hockey Night In Canada had a lengthy feature on the situation Saturday night:

 

Link

 

Other media outlets have also speculated that the move is imminent:

 

Link

 

Apparently the girls in Winnipeg are also a factor:

 

Link

 

 

In all seriousness though it sounds like the end might finally be near in the desert for the Dogs. In what other sport would it make sense to leave one of the bigget cities in the US and a barand new arena for a region with only 750k people and an undersized 15,000 seat building? All that being said it looks like it makes sense in this case.

[Weave]

Now to get one of the poor attendance teams in the south back to Quebec City......

[Wayne VanDorp]

Now to get one of the poor attendance teams in the south back to Quebec City......

 

Atlanta?

 

Heck the "new Jets" hompage even has them and Phoenix under the heading "Who would you rather have?":

 

Link

[LabattBlue]

My memory is fading. There has been an NHL team in Phoenix for 14 years! I would have guessed somewhere around 8-10 years.

 

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/display_standings.php?tmi=7450

[Iron Crotch]

My memory is fading. There has been an NHL team in Phoenix for 14 years! I would have guessed somewhere around 8-10 years.

 

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/display_standings.php?tmi=7450

 

Yeah, and they've lost millions every year for 14 straight years. It is about to the point where Bettman can no longer force the team to stay there. I have a theory on hockey in the south:

The markets that don't have a basketball team seem to do fine (Carolina, Nashville, Tampa) whereas some of the other southern markets are "basketball cities" and always will be (Miami, Atlanta, Phoenix). Dallas seems to be able to support both for some reason.

[LabattBlue]

Yeah, and they've lost millions every year for 14 straight years. It is about to the point where Bettman can no longer force the team to stay there. I have a theory on hockey in the south:

The markets that don't have a basketball team seem to do fine (Carolina, Nashville, Tampa) whereas some of the other southern markets are "basketball cities" and always will be (Miami, Atlanta, Phoenix). Dallas seems to be able to support both for some reason.

Dallas has been averaging over 17,000 since 00-01(as far back as espn numbers go), but their attendance is under 15,000 this year. Don't really now what is going on since they are having a good year. Maybe because they have missed the playoff the last two years?

 

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

[Weave]

Yeah, and they've lost millions every year for 14 straight years. It is about to the point where Bettman can no longer force the team to stay there. I have a theory on hockey in the south:

The markets that don't have a basketball team seem to do fine (Carolina, Nashville, Tampa) whereas some of the other southern markets are "basketball cities" and always will be (Miami, Atlanta, Phoenix). Dallas seems to be able to support both for some reason.

 

The city of Dallas has over 1.5M people and Metro Dallas-Ft Worth has a population of over 6.3M people and is the 4th largest metropolitan area in the US. I would think that a metro area that big would ahve no problem finding enough fans to support basketball and hockey. Hell, with that many people there is probably as many Stars fans in Dal-Ft Worth as there are Sabres fans in metro Buffalo. And plenty of corporations to buy up the luxury suites too.

[Sabre Dance]

Yeah, and they've lost millions every year for 14 straight years. It is about to the point where Bettman can no longer force the team to stay there. I have a theory on hockey in the south:

The markets that don't have a basketball team seem to do fine (Carolina, Nashville, Tampa) whereas some of the other southern markets are "basketball cities" and always will be (Miami, Atlanta, Phoenix). Dallas seems to be able to support both for some reason.

 

Yep - I think Bettman's "experiment" with hockey in Southern markets should come to an end. Phoenix was never a hockey city and never will be. I have grave doubts about Atlanta (where an NHL team failed once already). Florida probably doesn't need two teams (Tampa seems viable, but the Panthers maybe not so much.) Other than the Coyotes debacle, the fact that a former Cup winning team (Carolina) can't come close to filling it's barn is shameful and that blame can be shared equally between the league and the citizens of Raleigh).

Winnipeg and Quebec City are both dying for NHL hockey - why not let Phoenix go back to Winnipeg and send Atlanta up to Quebec? (The NBA doesn't seem to have so much of an issue with moving franchises). As for other weak teams, let the NHL do what they did with the Cleveland Barons - let them merge with an existing team that could use some propping up. With fewer teams, you might actually get to see teams from the other conference more than once a season.

[Iron Crotch]

The city of Dallas has over 1.5M people and Metro Dallas-Ft Worth has a population of over 6.3M people and is the 4th largest metropolitan area in the US. I would think that a metro area that big would ahve no problem finding enough fans to support basketball and hockey. Hell, with that many people there is probably as many Stars fans in Dal-Ft Worth as there are Sabres fans in metro Buffalo. And plenty of corporations to buy up the luxury suites too.

 

Yeah, I was thinking that too, but Miami is the 7th biggest MSA, Atlanta is 9th biggest, and Phoenix is 12th biggest. At face value they should have enough people (northern transplants, etc.) to sustain teams. One possibility is the demographic makeup of these cities are different than that of Dallas? Or maybe there is variance in the entertainment options across these markets? Or both?

 

We'll be discussing this very topic (southern hockey economics) in a course that I teach next week. It is a bit of a ruse... I get to talk hockey for 3 hours under the guise of "teaching important concepts." :)

[IKnowPhysics]

The city of Dallas has over 1.5M people...

 

The other cities are considerable markets as well, but you're headed in the right direction. I think the real difference maker is that the Stars are the only NHL team in Texas (25M people, 2nd most populous state in the US) and the closest NHL teams are really far away (St Louis and Nashville, both ~650 driving miles- only Colorado is more isolated with nearest teams ~800-850 miles away).

 

I think the Dallas fanbase also got a boost on arrival from receiving a successful franchise (the North Stars were in the Cup Finals only two years prior to departing the Twin Cities)- the real reason for moving was the constant fan hatred of Norman Green's (owner) ######ups. Since being in Dallas, the Stars have made the playoffs 12 of 16 seasons (and 10 of their first 12).

 

Obligatory: I hate the ###### Dallas Stars.

 

I hope they get bounced out the playoffs and that failing to make the playoffs three years in a row imposes some magic juju that makes them bad-Red-Wings bad or expansion-Ottawa-Sentors bad.

[Wayne VanDorp]

Other than the LA Raiders moving back to Oakland has any team ever moved back to a city it left?

 

There is also some talk of the Sacramento Kings moving back to Kansas City if this proposed Anaheim move falls through. IIRC KC has a brand new arena and is looking to lure an NBA or NHL team there. There was some talk a few years ago of the Penguins (pre-new arena) or the Isles relocating there.

[Weave]

Other than the LA Raiders moving back to Oakland has any team ever moved back to a city it left?

 

There is also some talk of the Sacramento Kings moving back to Kansas City if this proposed Anaheim move falls through. IIRC KC has a brand new arena and is looking to lure an NBA or NHL team there. There was some talk a few years ago of the Penguins (pre-new arena) or the Isles relocating there.

 

 

This is Atlanta and Colorado's 2nd go around at hockey. The first time around Atlanta had the Flames and Colorado was the Rockies.

 

Edit: NM I get now thjat you are talking about the actual team that left moving back. I can't think of any that did that.

[PromoTheRobot]

Everyone loves dumping on Bettman but the NHL is stronger and more popular in the USA than ever, despite shaky teams in in ATL and PHX. He's been right more than he's been wrong.

 

PTR

[SabresFan526]

I used to live in Dallas for a number of years. It's pretty simple, people go to games when teams are good. Bad hockey or bad professional teams in general never draw attendance. I believe during 2001-2004 when the Sabres entered bankruptcy, attendance figures pegged HSBC at less than 10,000 people regularly. Those three seasons alos happen to be when the Sabres had terrible teams that were not very competitive and had no chance of making the playoffs which resulted in Vanek, Thomas being drafted quite hit. Having lived much of my life in the South, I get very irritated when I hear hockey does not work in the South (I am not addressing any one person in particular on this thread, by the way, just a general comment). Similarly, where were all those diehard Chicago Blackhawks fans before the last 2 years? How about those rabid Washington Capitals fans that just so happened to show up during the 2006-2007 season when lo and behold the Caps made it to the playoffs. I don't really buy the basketball theory either as the Kings seem to do pretty well at the gate and they have Lakers playing in the same arena.

 

It's a pretty simple formula, good teams perform well at the gate. Bad teams do not. It does not matter one bit where that team is located. If I am wrong, then why did the Nordiques leave Quebec City and why did the Jets leave Winnepeg in the first place. The Nordiques finally made the playoffs in their final year in Quebec before they moved after about 10 seasons of being one of the worst teams in the Adams division on a consistent basis. Why did the Whalers leave Hartford? Teams are always going to lose money if they put a bad product on the ice because nobody wants to pay money to see a team lose. You can call it bandwagon, you can call it not being loyal, you can call it whatever you want. It's reality. The key to running a successful hockey team that can earn operating profit is to be able to field a competitive team that will generate good revenue through attendance and put the team in the playoffs when you no longer have to pay player salaries and basically are running in the black.

 

The Dallas Stars are performing worse than normal at the gate this year due to missed playoffs over the last couple of years as well as the ownership turmoil and uncertainty of the state of the team. That's the most likely reason why this year is an off year in attendance. If the Stars make the playoffs, I can almost guarantee that the American Airlines Center will be packed.

 

That's my thought.

[shrader]

Yep - I think Bettman's "experiment" with hockey in Southern markets should come to an end. Phoenix was never a hockey city and never will be. I have grave doubts about Atlanta (where an NHL team failed once already). Florida probably doesn't need two teams (Tampa seems viable, but the Panthers maybe not so much.) Other than the Coyotes debacle, the fact that a former Cup winning team (Carolina) can't come close to filling it's barn is shameful and that blame can be shared equally between the league and the citizens of Raleigh).

Winnipeg and Quebec City are both dying for NHL hockey - why not let Phoenix go back to Winnipeg and send Atlanta up to Quebec? (The NBA doesn't seem to have so much of an issue with moving franchises). As for other weak teams, let the NHL do what they did with the Cleveland Barons - let them merge with an existing team that could use some propping up. With fewer teams, you might actually get to see teams from the other conference more than once a season.

 

Winnipeg and Quebec City have a lot in common with Atlanta seeing as how hockey failed there too. There are still the same longterm problems in place in those two cities as their were when they originally lost their teams. Winnipeg now has a 15k seat arena which is below NHL numbers and Quebec still needs an arena.