Someone convince me that these players would not have been an improvement over what is there today...

[Mbossy]

You can pick only three. If you're young and rich and depraved (that's your assumption about all athletes, apparently), you can't beat South Beach, LA and Hotlanta. Lived all three places when I was a model photographer.

Pics man. We want pics!

 

What did you guys think of Danny Gare with Kevin?

 

I actually really liked listening to what Gare had to say.

One of my favorite players growing up. He stepped in pretty well. A bit slow, but a good non -KS opinion. It's fun to hear from the outside what people think.

 

They had a little under two mil in cap space. When factoring in the prorated contract they could have easily brought in a player with a 3-4 mil contract(even after subtracting Paetsch and MacArthur and adding Torres).

 

$5,579,801.02, but yeah, they could have. IMO, they could have waived Mair and Ellis to make some room, move some guys down a line a get a top 6 scorer. To DR, as usual, it was too expensive for a rental.

[inkman]

Pics man. We want pics!

 

 

One of my favorite players growing up. He stepped in pretty well. A bit slow, but a good non -KS opinion. It's fun to hear from the outside what people think.

 

 

 

$5,579,801.02, but yeah, they could have. IMO, they could have waived Mair and Ellis to make some room, move some guys down a line a get a top 6 scorer. To DR, as usual, it was too expensive for a rental.

Well, it wasn't like top 6 forwards were flying off he shelves. Cullen is the only guy I would have wanted on the radar. He would have been perfect. As far as Kovi and Poni go, no thanks. Soft Euro floaters, the last thin this team needs.

[Mbossy]

Well, it wasn't like top 6 forwards were flying off he shelves. Cullen is the only guy I would have wanted on the radar. He would have been perfect. As far as Kovi and Poni go, no thanks. Soft Euro floaters, the last thin this team needs.

 

You would've gone more centerman than wing? I'd take Cullen for a center, but I like Torres to get Hecht off that line.

[shrader]

As for this summer is Darcy's real test, i agree with that. Assuming the Sabres will want to spend more, they will have like $13 million of available cap space to add. Also, Darcy has loaded up on draft picks. If i have counted correctly, they have 1st, 3rd, 3rd (Bos), 3rd (Atl), 4th, 4th (Bos), 4th (Atl), 5th, 6th, 7th, 7th (SJ). That is 11 draft picks.

 

I'm too lazy to look this up, but the 2nd they traded for Torres wasn't originally theirs. They got it in the Bernier deal last year. So unless they traded their own 2nd rounder somewhere a long the line, they should still have a 2nd.

[carpandean]

I'm too lazy to look this up, but the 2nd they traded for Torres wasn't originally theirs. They got it in the Bernier deal last year. So unless they traded their own 2nd rounder somewhere a long the line, they should still have a 2nd.

Rivet.

[inkman]

You would've gone more centerman than wing? I'd take Cullen for a center, but I like Torres to get Hecht off that line.

Any scoring forward will do. I would have liked Torres and Cullen. Couple that with Corvo and the deadline wouldn't have felt so empty. Miller isn't going to have many years like this, they should have sold the farm.

 

I will root for them to win, but if they lose and miss the playoffs, a small part of me will know it's a necessesary evil.

[theend]

Dude, I wish you'd joined this board like, say, 3-4 years ago. I'll be up front and tell you that I am not the best poster on here...not by a long shot. Having said that, from what I've read on your posts, a lot of what you have said on here makes sound, logical hockey sense. In spite of the fact that you're new around here, I feel like I am learning from you. You rank right up there with nfreeman as being one of the most intelligent hockey posters on here.

 

I'm also thinking back to trade deadline day where a lot of us were getting frustrated with Darcy's lack of making any movement. In retrospect, it's a good thing he passed on some of the big names who obviously have some age and health issues. Torres isn't a rookie, but at least he's not nearing the twilight of his career anytime soon.

 

Let's also look at the fact that some hockey pundits have said that the Sabres draft pretty well. Obviously, they're not going to get someone like a John Tavares or a Phil Kessel from recent years' past. However, we also have to look at who gets sent to Portland and eventually gets called up. They're not going to be like Sidney Crosby, but they have the energy and drive and would salivate at the opportunity to make it to the big time.

 

 

Thanks, Crosschecking, for the compliments. And nfreeman, as well. Despite technically being a 'noob' (I was reading this forum for a good 2 years before I got the guts to join a couple months ago), I feel welcome by everyone here. I enjoy having these debates, since hockey's always been a big part of my life - I grew up in Rochester and have always been a Sabres fan.

 

I understand a lot of the frustration around the board lately, but I feel that a lot of people are getting over-anxious and impatient over the development of the team. It's not always a fun or easy thing to watch, because we all want to win now, but I truly believe Darcy and Lindy are trying to build a successful team. We're operating in cycles here - in '98-'99 we were in the Conference and Cup Finals. Then we tailed off a bit, losing in the 1st and 2nd round. Then, we went through three years of rebuilding. And we came out of the gate flying, two Conference finals (and what would've been a Cup except for those freak D-man injuries) in a row.

 

I feel now we're in another three-year rebuilding period. Lindy and Darcy are trying to get the kids to grow and create a strong base for years to come. This is what good management and coaches do, because snap personnel decisions lead to volatile team performance. The real disappointing part is that they (and all of us) are learning that this group is not capable of becoming an elite team. Darcy already shed some of that dead weight in Kotalik and Afinogenov. And he's done the same with MacArthur, Paille, and will probably (hopefully) do more this summer.

 

I'm just not a fan of strong, impulse reactions like firing Lindy because this group isn't performing. Bringing in a new coach isn't the answer - this isn't Pittsburgh where we're sitting on Crosby and Malkin and a coaching change will suddenly wake everyone up. The attitude problem obviously runs deeper. You could bring in Babcock, Quenneville, or any other top NHL coach right now, and I don't think they would be able to wake these guys out of their funk - they have to do it themselves. Darcy sees talent in Portland, and he's going to bring it up next season. I just hope he's also smart enough to realize that the 'veteran' leadership on this team also needs some heavy tweaking if we're going to be truly successful.

[nfreeman]

Thanks, Crosschecking, for the compliments. And nfreeman, as well. Despite technically being a 'noob' (I was reading this forum for a good 2 years before I got the guts to join a couple months ago), I feel welcome by everyone here. I enjoy having these debates, since hockey's always been a big part of my life - I grew up in Rochester and have always been a Sabres fan.

 

I understand a lot of the frustration around the board lately, but I feel that a lot of people are getting over-anxious and impatient over the development of the team. It's not always a fun or easy thing to watch, because we all want to win now, but I truly believe Darcy and Lindy are trying to build a successful team. We're operating in cycles here - in '98-'99 we were in the Conference and Cup Finals. Then we tailed off a bit, losing in the 1st and 2nd round. Then, we went through three years of rebuilding. And we came out of the gate flying, two Conference finals (and what would've been a Cup except for those freak D-man injuries) in a row.

 

I feel now we're in another three-year rebuilding period. Lindy and Darcy are trying to get the kids to grow and create a strong base for years to come. This is what good management and coaches do, because snap personnel decisions lead to volatile team performance. The real disappointing part is that they (and all of us) are learning that this group is not capable of becoming an elite team. Darcy already shed some of that dead weight in Kotalik and Afinogenov. And he's done the same with MacArthur, Paille, and will probably (hopefully) do more this summer.

 

I'm just not a fan of strong, impulse reactions like firing Lindy because this group isn't performing. Bringing in a new coach isn't the answer - this isn't Pittsburgh where we're sitting on Crosby and Malkin and a coaching change will suddenly wake everyone up. The attitude problem obviously runs deeper. You could bring in Babcock, Quenneville, or any other top NHL coach right now, and I don't think they would be able to wake these guys out of their funk - they have to do it themselves. Darcy sees talent in Portland, and he's going to bring it up next season. I just hope he's also smart enough to realize that the 'veteran' leadership on this team also needs some heavy tweaking if we're going to be truly successful.

Another excellent post. It's always nice to have another grownup on the board.

 

I largely agree with this post. However, I do think that at some point it's fair to hold DR and LR accountable. I think that LQ and TG realized what a mess they'd made and stepped back to let DR run the show by the summer of 2008. If that's right, then he's had two offseasons, two drafts, two trading deadlines and the better part of 2 full seasons to right the ship. The Rivet trade, the Bernier trade, the Hecht, Pommer, Miller and Connolly extensions, the additions of Lalime, Montador and Grier, the trades of Paille and MacArthur, the trading up and drafting of Myers, the drafting of Ennis, and bringing in Dominic Moore and Raffi Torres at the deadline were all DR's moves.

 

Significantly, the lack of any other moves (I'm probably missing something but I don't think anything big) since then was also Darcy's choice. He's said, and it's true enough, that the cap makes trading and free agency harder than it used to be, but good players still become available and change teams. Darcy has chosen not to pay the price necessary to bring in guys like Ryan Smyth, Brian Rolston, Dion Phaneuf, Chris Pronger, etc. -- even when those guys were available and did ultimately change teams. One assumes he chose not to make those moves because he felt that the price he'd have to pay was too high -- i.e. that he'd rather keep the money/picks/prospects/roster players the Sabres have than give those up in favor of those guys.

 

Sabres fans have been dying for a true #1 center and a top 6 forward with skill and guts (as if they grew on trees), but DR hasn't shopped in the expensive aisles for those guys. Instead, he's chosen to wait for guys like Stafford and Roy to develop, guessed that TC would stay healthy and made less expensive "value" moves. To this point, these choices haven't led to a return to glory.

 

Now, if the Sabres right the ship this year and win a round in the playoffs -- I think it will be fair to say at that point that DR's plan is working, and that he should have another offseason to continue to cultivate this team. But if they continue to act like fragile little kids and get bounced easily in the first round, then it will be fair to conclude that DR has made too many miscalculations and it's time to give someone else a try. (And maybe that new GM is LR -- I'd be fine with that.)

[theend]

Another excellent post. It's always nice to have another grownup on the board.

 

I largely agree with this post. However, I do think that at some point it's fair to hold DR and LR accountable.

 

Thanks, nfreeman - and I agree that DR and LR shouldn't be untouchable, too. DR, to me, has this offseason to remedy the problems and make a difference. He had a plan that started in '08 when he received more control, and this is his final season to show that he's making the right decisions. His contract runs out at the end of next season, and though many here despise LQ and TG as disinterested in 'real success', they're not going to renew his contract again if he hasn't put this team on a positive course.

[static70]

After 12 seasons, it is fair to say a good assesment of DR and LQ's abilities at the management level can be made.

For myself, its a mixed bag really. I do believe they did a good job coming out of the bankrupcty and lockout, but in the same token, they did show some incompetence with the Drury/Briere fiasco. That is water under the bridge though, these past 3 seasons have been plenty enough time to assess the current roster. I would have to believe if significant moves are not made this off season, DR will most likely loose his job. I am not sure on Ruff, but the roster make up sits squarely on DR's shoulders.

 

I also believe some mistakes were made this deadline as well. Specifically with regards to the Lydman/Tallinder UFA situation. It is abundantly clear they kept them for the profit margin with respect to the playoff appearance the team is sure to make this season. Not a bad move financially, but I would question the move with regards to future plans for the teams roster itself. Which would lead me to believe they are going to be significant players this off season. Just some thoughts on the situation.

 

Torres is off to Toronto after this season, with this in mind, identifying off season moves becomes a bit more clear, specifically on the forwards situation. Ennis will probably hit the roster next season. They will most likely address the LW situation either through a trade draft day or in FA. I don't see significant movement at center from the outside, but I do see the RW issue also being addressed via a trade draft day or the FA market.

 

All in all, I think Buffalo fans will have much to be excited about next season. This current roster may even surprise us in the 2nd round of the playoffs should they make it that far and Miller could really push the issue with a playoff performance that parallels his Olympic performance. Just some more thoughts on the team.

[nfreeman]

After 12 seasons, it is fair to say a good assesment of DR and LQ's abilities at the management level can be made.

For myself, its a mixed bag really. I do believe they did a good job coming out of the bankrupcty and lockout, but in the same token, they did show some incompetence with the Drury/Briere fiasco. That is water under the bridge though, these past 3 seasons have been plenty enough time to assess the current roster. I would have to believe if significant moves are not made this off season, DR will most likely loose his job. I am not sure on Ruff, but the roster make up sits squarely on DR's shoulders.

 

I also believe some mistakes were made this deadline as well. Specifically with regards to the Lydman/Tallinder UFA situation. It is abundantly clear they kept them for the profit margin with respect to the playoff appearance the team is sure to make this season. Not a bad move financially, but I would question the move with regards to future plans for the teams roster itself. Which would lead me to believe they are going to be significant players this off season. Just some thoughts on the situation.

 

Torres is off to Toronto after this season, with this in mind, identifying off season moves becomes a bit more clear, specifically on the forwards situation. Ennis will probably hit the roster next season. They will most likely address the LW situation either through a trade draft day or in FA. I don't see significant movement at center from the outside, but I do see the RW issue also being addressed via a trade draft day or the FA market.

 

All in all, I think Buffalo fans will have much to be excited about next season. This current roster may even surprise us in the 2nd round of the playoffs should they make it that far and Miller could really push the issue with a playoff performance that parallels his Olympic performance. Just some more thoughts on the team.

Good post. I have a hard time believing that they will be significant players this summer though. Still, anything is possible and if the Sabres get bounced in the first round (or don't make it at all), I would think DR (or his successor) will unload at least one "core" forward.

[shrader]

I also believe some mistakes were made this deadline as well. Specifically with regards to the Lydman/Tallinder UFA situation. It is abundantly clear they kept them for the profit margin with respect to the playoff appearance the team is sure to make this season. Not a bad move financially, but I would question the move with regards to future plans for the teams roster itself. Which would lead me to believe they are going to be significant players this off season. Just some thoughts on the situation.

 

So would you have moved them both? Yes, there is a financial gain to be made by keeping them both, specifically, making the playoffs. But that also has just as much of an impact on the team's future as well. Getting some playoff experience under the belts of guys like Myers and Kennedy is a big deal. If they had moved all three of their UFA d-men (not sure if this is what you're advocating here), that was going to be a lot of slots to fill. Personally, I'd say they stand a better chance of advancing a bit with Tallinder/Lydman instead of Weber/whoever else. It doesn't seem to me like it's mostly financial motivation here as you're suggesting.

[shrader]

I also believe some mistakes were made this deadline as well. Specifically with regards to the Lydman/Tallinder UFA situation. It is abundantly clear they kept them for the profit margin with respect to the playoff appearance the team is sure to make this season. Not a bad move financially, but I would question the move with regards to future plans for the teams roster itself. Which would lead me to believe they are going to be significant players this off season. Just some thoughts on the situation.

 

So would you have moved them both? Yes, there is a financial gain to be made by keeping them both, specifically, making the playoffs. But that also has just as much of an impact on the team's future as well. Getting some playoff experience under the belts of guys like Myers and Kennedy is a big deal. If they had moved all three of their UFA d-men (not sure if this is what you're advocating here), that was going to be a lot of slots to fill. Personally, I'd say they stand a better chance of advancing a bit with Tallinder/Lydman instead of Weber/whoever else. It doesn't seem to me like it's mostly financial motivation here as you're suggesting.

[static70]

So would you have moved them both? Yes, there is a financial gain to be made by keeping them both, specifically, making the playoffs. But that also has just as much of an impact on the team's future as well. Getting some playoff experience under the belts of guys like Myers and Kennedy is a big deal. If they had moved all three of their UFA d-men (not sure if this is what you're advocating here), that was going to be a lot of slots to fill. Personally, I'd say they stand a better chance of advancing a bit with Tallinder/Lydman instead of Weber/whoever else. It doesn't seem to me like it's mostly financial motivation here as you're suggesting.

Well, yes, I would have moved both Tallinder and Lydman at the deadline. But I think the question you should be asking is not if I would have moved them, but for what. And in my case, I would have made an attempt at a package deal to bring in a Horton/Boyes/Penner type RWer who has an existing contract beyond this season. But, picks would have been ok as well, you can use them as chips come draft day or just pick your player with em, really a toss up.

 

Since your question was answered I'll respond to the "Advocating" part. I was expressing my opinion with the utilization of assests. I may have a biased view based on this experience. But the underlying issue isn't based on my opinion, I was just expressing it. As for who would fill those holes, Sekera and Montador with Weber and Gragnani waiting in the wings in case of injury. I think your view is also slanted if you don't honestly believe the decision wasn't based on profit projection. Tallinder and Lydman aren't significant weapons on the offensive side, and with the way the team has performed this season over all in conjuction with Darcy's statements with regard to gearing up for a run next season, Sekera/Montador/Weber could of done no worse than Lydman and Tallinder on the roster considering the problem really isn't defensive in nature with this team, its forechecking, offensive threats through finishing and an abundantly clear lack of desire to play to the level necessary to be considered contenders.

 

No, that being the case, I happen to stand by my assesment that it was for profit.

[shrader]

I don't think we can ignore the impact Tallinder has had on Myers. Maybe it's the impact Myers has had on him, we can't really be sure, but I think Tallinder is far more valuable to this team than most would suspect. Anyway, I went into the deadline fully expecting them to move just one of the UFA d-men, I just never would've expected it to be Paetsch. I'm just confused as to how keeping both of them has such the major financial impact that you're talking about. With our without them, it won't change the ticket or merchandise sales in any way. The only financial boost in store is from making the playoffs and possible winning a round or two. Yeah, Tallinder-Lydman would have a much bigger impact there than any of the kids. Hell, if it was a financial decision, they move them for picks and remove a decent chunk from their payroll.

 

I also think you're overvaluing Gragnani quite a bit here. They have a bit of a log jam on the blue line in the system and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he isn't offered a QO after this season.

[static70]

I don't think we can ignore the impact Tallinder has had on Myers. Maybe it's the impact Myers has had on him, we can't really be sure, but I think Tallinder is far more valuable to this team than most would suspect. Anyway, I went into the deadline fully expecting them to move just one of the UFA d-men, I just never would've expected it to be Paetsch. I'm just confused as to how keeping both of them has such the major financial impact that you're talking about. With our without them, it won't change the ticket or merchandise sales in any way. The only financial boost in store is from making the playoffs and possible winning a round or two. Yeah, Tallinder-Lydman would have a much bigger impact there than any of the kids. Hell, if it was a financial decision, they move them for picks and remove a decent chunk from their payroll.

 

I also think you're overvaluing Gragnani quite a bit here. They have a bit of a log jam on the blue line in the system and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he isn't offered a QO after this season.

Well, I happen to be a managing partner of a successful business. I can tell you that making the playoffs is very significant, this would be the simplistic answer your looking for. As for removing them from the roster as opposed to the playoff financial impact, it doesn't even compare. You have to take their salaries from March 3rd to the end of the season and look at selling 18 + thousand playoff tickets for a minimum of 2 games. The numbers aren't even close, so that argument is just a pipe dream.

 

As for merchandise sales, it absolutely affects it, all studies from the past 60+ years of any business will show you that a known commodity moves more merchandise than an unknown, whether it be brand name or other wise, that does include sports franchises by the way.

 

As for Gragnani, that is Dineen's assesment, not mine, he is the one that stated, not once, but 4 times in the past 45 days that Gragnani is ready for the NHL. I have seen a few Pirates games in person, and I can tell you, I happen to agree.

[carpandean]

I also think you're overvaluing Gragnani quite a bit here. They have a bit of a log jam on the blue line in the system and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he isn't offered a QO after this season.

As for Gragnani, that is Dineen's assesment, not mine, he is the one that stated, not once, but 4 times in the past 45 days that Gragnani is ready for the NHL. I have seen a few Pirates games in person, and I can tell you, I happen to agree.

Listen to 12:30 on.

Darcy says that there are a few players that are progressing and are pressing. He names Gragnani as the offensive defenseman (13:27) with Weber as the defensive defenseman.

[FearTheReaper]

Listen to 12:30 on.

Darcy says that there are a few players that are progressing and are pressing. He names Gragnani as the offensive defenseman (13:27) with Weber as the defensive defenseman.

 

That sounds like an excellent pair to me. Gragnani is a bit underrated in my view. I feel he has a temendous amount of potential and he's starting to scratch at the NHL door. I hope he runs Shakira out of a job.

[SwampD]

From the title on down, this thread has too many words.

[nfreeman]

No, that being the case, I happen to stand by my assesment that it was for profit.

Well, while we can't ignore the profit motive, I also think there's an important psychological value in making the playoffs. It's important to dispel the losing aura that settled in around the team in the last 2 years (and re-emerged in the last month). Lydman and Tallinder give the team the best chance to make the playoffs and win a round. That would create positive energy and raise expectations for next year.

 

As far as the financial impact of unloading them now vs. playoff receipts, I seem to remember something like $1MM in profits per playoff game. Dumping Lydman and Tallinder for picks would've saved something like $1.5MM in total. So you are right that 2 playoff games would be a net financial gain, although not by that much. Certainly if they get to the 2nd round and get to 5 or 6 home playoff games, there is a bigger spread.

 

All in all, though, I'd guess that the psychological motive is about as big a factor as the profit motive in terms of DR's decision-making process.

 

I also think you're overvaluing Gragnani quite a bit here. They have a bit of a log jam on the blue line in the system and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he isn't offered a QO after this season.

Listen to 12:30 on.

Darcy says that there are a few players that are progressing and are pressing. He names Gragnani as the offensive defenseman (13:27) with Weber as the defensive defenseman.

That sounds like an excellent pair to me. Gragnani is a bit underrated in my view. I feel he has a temendous amount of potential and he's starting to scratch at the NHL door. I hope he runs Shakira out of a job.

I've liked the limited amount I've seen of Gragnani. If he really is in the mix for next year, it just makes it more likely that the Sabres won't try too hard to keep either Tallinder or Lydman. This will free up $6MM for our forward wish list.

[shrader]

 

As far as the financial impact of unloading them now vs. playoff receipts, I seem to remember something like $1MM in profits per playoff game. Dumping Lydman and Tallinder for picks would've saved something like $1.5MM in total. So you are right that 2 playoff games would be a net financial gain, although not by that much. Certainly if they get to the 2nd round and get to 5 or 6 home playoff games, there is a bigger spread.

 

They were going to make the playoffs with or without Tallinder-Lydman though.

[FearTheReaper]

Well, while we can't ignore the profit motive, I also think there's an important psychological value in making the playoffs. It's important to dispel the losing aura that settled in around the team in the last 2 years (and re-emerged in the last month). Lydman and Tallinder give the team the best chance to make the playoffs and win a round. That would create positive energy and raise expectations for next year.

 

As far as the financial impact of unloading them now vs. playoff receipts, I seem to remember something like $1MM in profits per playoff game. Dumping Lydman and Tallinder for picks would've saved something like $1.5MM in total. So you are right that 2 playoff games would be a net financial gain, although not by that much. Certainly if they get to the 2nd round and get to 5 or 6 home playoff games, there is a bigger spread.

 

All in all, though, I'd guess that the psychological motive is about as big a factor as the profit motive in terms of DR's decision-making process.

 

 

 

 

I've liked the limited amount I've seen of Gragnani. If he really is in the mix for next year, it just makes it more likely that the Sabres won't try too hard to keep either Tallinder or Lydman. This will free up $6MM for our forward wish list.

 

I'd like to see Gragnani in the fold for next season. But i believe Weber's style of D is going to be needed more than the offensive upside Marc will bring in. If both Lydman and Hank bolt come the summer, which is entirly possible, then i dont feel too comfortable with such a young blueline. I would want at least one more experienced dman in the lineup. But if Shakira is sent on his way, then i want Marc here right away. Andrej has played well as of late, but i'd rather see what Marc brings to the table.

 

Did you factor in Pommer's and Stafford's well deserved raises? I dont know the fine details about next years projected payroll. But if they have 4 mil in cap space, and Raffi plays well and fits in here, he better get a contract.

 

I see Raffi ending the year close to the following numbers.

25(to 28) g

16 to 24 a

for 52 to 41 points.

 

That type of production would merit a contract from 3 to 4.2 mil a season.

[nfreeman]

They were going to make the playoffs with or without Tallinder-Lydman though.

Good point and most likely true -- so the question is how many additional home playoff games would their presence be likely to cause?

[nfreeman]

Did you factor in Pommer's and Stafford's well deserved raises?

?? Both of them are making the same amount next year as they are this year.

[static70]

?? Both of them are making the same amount next year as they are this year.

Actually, Pomminstein makes 1 million more, his cap hit is the same though. 5.3 million - per CapGeek.

Stafford makes 800 thousand more, but once again, 1.9 million on the Cap hit - per CapGeek.

 

So, it may be the same on the cap hit, but not on the cash flow for the organization. Per CapGeek.