Are the Sabres that far off?

[SabresRepublic]

I truly believe if the Sabres can return to their style of play in Nov-Dec, they can beat anyone in the playoffs. They have enough scoring to win 3-2, 3-1, 2-1. It takes a dedication to playing a defensive minded system that doesn't allow odd man rushes, protects the crease and kills penalties. A hot goalie (check), a solid defense (check) and an opportunistic offense (check) can win it all.

 

Definitely Agree! The Sabres played at a 70% success rate right up through the Phoenix game - 47 games. They were the #1 defense and they were tied for 1st in the Eastern Conference and they were third overall in the league - NOT TOO SHABBY!

 

Perhaps they were peaking too soon? That and the Olympics may have played a part in the subsequent swoon. However, unlike some members on this board, I refuse to throw the baby out with the bath water!

 

The Sabres played to the level of their design - aptitude and skill! They came out of that abbreviated pre-Olympic season without any injuries and the knowledge that they can play with any team and therefore can get back to achieving the pinnacle of their concerted effort when play resumes. GO BUFFALO SABRES!!!

[deluca67]

And, other than Pronger and Brind'Amour, how exactly are you quantifying that toughness? As for Orpik, first I think he's overated, second I think Lydman is his equal.

First off, Lydman does not have the physical game Orpik does. That is just as ridiculous a point as you have ever made.

 

Toughness????

 

It goes way beyond just dropping the gloves. Toughness is a attitude and a willingness to self sacrifice. It's finishing a check. It's blocking a shot. It's pushing back when pushed. It's pushing back when your teammate has been pushed. It's more of a mental thing than physical. You don't have to be 6' 4" 220 lbs to be tough. Not all 6' 4" 220 lbs are tough.

 

The problem the Sabres have is that no one in their "core" have any of the characteristics that can be described as toughness. If your core is soft your team is soft. If you want to devalue toughness and the need to have your best players have those characteristics that define toughness? That's fine. We will have have plenty of time to discuss when this team falls off of Miller's shoulders.

[BuffalOhio]

Unfortunately, Kennedy is a good center but is not capable of winning a faceoff.

 

Which, unfortunately, make him a liability. He's also pretty bad defensively.

[tom webster]

First off, Lydman does not have the physical game Orpik does. That is just as ridiculous a point as you have ever made.

 

Toughness????

 

It goes way beyond just dropping the gloves. Toughness is a attitude and a willingness to self sacrifice. It's finishing a check. It's blocking a shot. It's pushing back when pushed. It's pushing back when your teammate has been pushed. It's more of a mental thing than physical. You don't have to be 6' 4" 220 lbs to be tough. Not all 6' 4" 220 lbs are tough.

 

The problem the Sabres have is that no one in their "core" have any of the characteristics that can be described as toughness. If your core is soft your team is soft. If you want to devalue toughness and the need to have your best players have those characteristics that define toughness? That's fine. We will have have plenty of time to discuss when this team falls off of Miller's shoulders.

 

You still haven't answered the question, which is why should they apologize for Miller being their best player? The point is this thread was, other then the big 4, which team is better then Buffalo. You take any other team and the league and they ride their top player as well. And as I pointed out, at least 2 of the big 4 have goaltender issues. So how many teams would they have no chance against?

As for toughness, I know what toughness is. The point is your are taking the 82 games you watch the Sabres play and comparing it to the few games you see their opponents play. I can't remember one game this year where I left thinking the Sabres lost because the other team out-toughed them.

I know there are those that yearn for the Ted Nolan days. All I remember is that his team got punked when they tried to out- tough the Flyers. The next year with essentially the same team, Ruff's team punked the Flyers by out finessing them.

[TomSmith]

Which, unfortunately, make him a liability. He's also pretty bad defensively.

Kennedy wasn't a liability on the 3rd line, he didn't start racking up minuses until he was moved to the 4th line.

It was Gaustad who was the liability on the 3rd line.

He was a minus 7 and went 19 games without a goal.

[TomSmith]

Unfortunately, Kennedy is a good center but is not capable of winning a faceoff.

I've never seen a team win a cup with centers that do nothing more offensively than win faceoffs.

In the trade off I'd rather have a 3rd line center that can skate and play hockey.

They're far better off with Gaustad on the 4th line and Kennedy on the 3rd.

 

Last year they traded for Dominic Moore, and this year I don't expect to see Gaustad playing 3rd line center going into the playoffs.

If not they're making a mistake.

[TomSmith]

First off, Lydman does not have the physical game Orpik does. That is just as ridiculous a point as you have ever made.

 

Toughness????

 

It goes way beyond just dropping the gloves. Toughness is a attitude and a willingness to self sacrifice. It's finishing a check. It's blocking a shot. It's pushing back when pushed. It's pushing back when your teammate has been pushed. It's more of a mental thing than physical. You don't have to be 6' 4" 220 lbs to be tough. Not all 6' 4" 220 lbs are tough.

 

The problem the Sabres have is that no one in their "core" have any of the characteristics that can be described as toughness. If your core is soft your team is soft. If you want to devalue toughness and the need to have your best players have those characteristics that define toughness? That's fine. We will have have plenty of time to discuss when this team falls off of Miller's shoulders.

This team is playing good defense in front of Miller for most of the season and his numbers have a lot to do with that.

Part of the reason the scoring is down is because they are playing a defensive system.

[PromoTheRobot]

We lost skill players and need to replace them with skill players to return to contention.

But the majority of fans I see on forums think the opposite.

Most of them think players like Gaustad and Grier lead teams to cups and they're looking for a heavier dose of that.

 

I see posts where fans want to trade Roy and picks for players like Jarrett Stoll, it's moronic.

While my post may come off as simple minded, what I was saying is that I think the Sabres have the talent. What we lack is a leader. I really believe Chris Drury would elevate the players we already have. Look, we know our current Sabres can play with anyone...when they feel like it. What they need is a real captain who will hold the slackers accountable and lead by example. That's why we need to trade back for Chris Drury.

 

PTR

[TomSmith]

Yes the Sabres scored 24 more goals in 06/07, but league scoring was down and continued to drop until this year.

League scoring or not, 2005-2007 is proof positive that what you said about the Sabres team being an aberation relying on calls to score was complete MYTH.

With or without a season where officials called more penalties that team scored goals.

Officials didn't stop them and neither did league scoring.

And they'd still be scoring today, other skill teams are.

 

 

 

More to the point, however, is that that style of play that allowed them to score so well during the season proved ineffective in the playoffs. No team has ever won the Cup trying to play 3 equal lines as opposed to having 2 top scoring lines.

You call all 3 of those lines Buffalo had equal because you choose to, but that demonstrates nothing.

If you believe that The Penguins or the RedWings had 5 or 6 skill players backed up by a bunch of Guastads Mairs and Ellis's etc you'd be sadly mistaken.

These teams winning stanley cups bare no resemblance to that model.

 

I never said that today's NHL renders Roy, or Briere for that matter, ineffective. Its Roy stubbornness and refusal to play the way he is told that is the problem and that almost got him traded this off season. He will be lucky to be here next year if he makes it past the trade deadline.

This is according to who?

What do you do just blurt out rumors that suit your argument and expect them to be taken as fact?

This sound like the type of gossip that would come from fans that follow the likes of Wrg's Bulldog or Paul Hamilton.

 

 

As for Kennedy's demotion coinciding with their losing streak, the connection is that Kennedy's poor play contributed to their losses. It happens. Young players hit a wall. He will be an important part of this team's future, maybe even the immediate future.

No, as soon as they went on their campaign to showcase Gaustad for the olympics it started to go south.

Putting Gaustad with Tim Connolly is retarded.

Gaustad belongs on the 4th line and as a side note he has no business on any olympic team.

[TomSmith]

While my post may come off as simple minded, what I was saying is that I think the Sabres have the talent. What we lack is a leader. I really believe Chris Drury would elevate the players we already have. Look, we know our current Sabres can play with anyone...when they feel like it. What they need is a real captain who will hold the slackers accountable and lead by example. That's why we need to trade back for Chris Drury.

 

PTR

I wasn't referring to you in my reply.

Drury's contract is an impossibility.

[SabresRepublic]

First off, Lydman does not have the physical game Orpik does. That is just as ridiculous a point as you have ever made.

 

Toughness????

 

It goes way beyond just dropping the gloves. Toughness is a attitude and a willingness to self sacrifice. It's finishing a check. It's blocking a shot. It's pushing back when pushed. It's pushing back when your teammate has been pushed. It's more of a mental thing than physical. You don't have to be 6' 4" 220 lbs to be tough. Not all 6' 4" 220 lbs are tough.

 

The problem the Sabres have is that no one in their "core" have any of the characteristics that can be described as toughness. If your core is soft your team is soft. If you want to devalue toughness and the need to have your best players have those characteristics that define toughness? That's fine. We will have have plenty of time to discuss when this team falls off of Miller's shoulders.

 

I am NOT going out of my way to contradict you (translation - PLEASE DON'T SHOOT; I really am one of the good guys!) I am watching the Finland vs Czech Republic and the announcers just confirmed what I thought was a magnanimous defensive move by Lydman vs Jagr saying.."that was the greatest defensive move of the hockey Olympics thus far." Actually, Lydman has excelled on odd man defense for the Sabres, IMHO!

 

Lydman on the ice when his teammates score the only goal of the game with less than 6 minutes left. I would rather USA play the Finns in the semifinal!

[tom webster]

League scoring or not, 2005-2007 is proof positive that what you said about the Sabres team being an aberation relying on calls to score was complete MYTH.

With or without a season where officials called more penalties that team scored goals.

Officials didn't stop them and neither did league scoring.

And they'd still be scoring today, other skill teams are.

 

 

 

 

You call all 3 of those lines Buffalo had equal because you choose to, but that demonstrates nothing.

If you believe that The Penguins or the RedWings had 5 or 6 skill players backed up by a bunch of Guastads Mairs and Ellis's etc you'd be sadly mistaken.

These teams winning stanley cups bare no resemblance to that model.

 

 

This is according to who?

What do you do just blurt out rumors that suit your argument and expect them to be taken as fact?

This sound like the type of gossip that would come from fans that follow the likes of Wrg's Bulldog or Paul Hamilton.

 

 

 

No, as soon as they went on their campaign to showcase Gaustad for the olympics it started to go south.

Putting Gaustad with Tim Connolly is retarded.

Gaustad belongs on the 4th line and as a side note he has no business on any olympic team.

 

A) Until this year's Washington Capitals, no team has come close to the numbers the Sabres' put up in 06/07. In fact, in 07/08, 262 goals led the league.

B) you may want to look at the stats from the Penguins roster last year. Two guys had over 100 points, no one else over 49. The year before, the Red Wings had only 2 forwards over 42 points. Championship teams have role players. Ask Pittsburgh how important Talbot was to their team.

C) Roy was almost gone and will be gone unless he adapts his game.

D) Talk about ridiculous rumors. Showcasing Gaustad for the Olympics? That's just what they were doing. You would think they would have known the team was set when they started showcasing him. I guess another blunder on their part. Gaustad's play, as well as Kennedy's, was a big factor in how well the team was playing. Gaustad will be a big part of the rest of the season and hopefully Kennedy will be refreshed by the break and turn his season back around.

Say hi to Tim's mom, by the way.

[deluca67]

You still haven't answered the question, which is why should they apologize for Miller being their best player? The point is this thread was, other then the big 4, which team is better then Buffalo. You take any other team and the league and they ride their top player as well. And as I pointed out, at least 2 of the big 4 have goaltender issues. So how many teams would they have no chance against?

As for toughness, I know what toughness is. The point is your are taking the 82 games you watch the Sabres play and comparing it to the few games you see their opponents play. I can't remember one game this year where I left thinking the Sabres lost because the other team out-toughed them.

I know there are those that yearn for the Ted Nolan days. All I remember is that his team got punked when they tried to out- tough the Flyers. The next year with essentially the same team, Ruff's team punked the Flyers by out finessing them.

If you take Miller off of the Sabres and the top player from every other team the Sabers would fall in the standings. They would plummet past teams like Philly, the NY Rangers, Montreal and Tampa Bay. And let's not forget the Sabres right now with Miller are not as good as the Sens. It would be wrong for me not to include the Leafs as well. With the changes Burke has made? The Leafs have a much stronger defensive corp than the Sabres, if the Sabres have a advantage at forward it is not a huge one.

 

Getting back to the toughness issue. You keep referring back to the Flyers. You haven't seen the Sabres get "out-toughed" because you, like Regier, can't recognize it. The Sabres don't hit, they don't sacrifice their bodies to block shots and they don't engage the opposition when challenged (ie. goalie getting hit).

 

This team is soft form the top to it's core. They have a GM who is afraid of change. A coach that has given up on the thought of playing tough, they don't even mention "team toughness" anymore. A core that is as soft they come in the NHL. Any toughness they do have is either old or not talented enough to make a huge difference.

[LabattBlue]

This team is soft form the top to it's core. They have a GM who is afraid of change. A coach that has given up on the thought of playing tough, they don't even mention "team toughness" anymore. A core that is as soft they come in the NHL. Any toughness they do have is either old or not talented enough to make a huge difference.

I may be delusional on this one, but I am clinging to the hope that when the playoffs role around, most of the players will find a way to exorcise the softness from their systems and become body checking, shot blocking, do whatever it takes to win players.

 

They are going nowhere in the playoffs if the current style of play continues.

[inkman]

I may be delusional on this one, but I am clinging to the hope that when the playoffs role around, most of the players will find a way to exorcise the softness from their systems and become body checking, shot blocking, do whatever it takes to win players.

If players like Kotalik and Kalinin can make this transformation, then I guess anyone can. I'm not holding my breath though...

[nfreeman]

I guess I just assumed you were talking hockey when you said you didn't like Roy.

I'm tired of hearing all this soft garbage, it's overstated to the point of being pathetic.

I see posts where fans want to trade Roy and picks for players like Jarrett Stoll, it's moronic.

You call all 3 of those lines Buffalo had equal because you choose to, but that demonstrates nothing.

If you believe that The Penguins or the RedWings had 5 or 6 skill players backed up by a bunch of Guastads Mairs and Ellis's etc you'd be sadly mistaken.

This is according to who?

What do you do just blurt out rumors that suit your argument and expect them to be taken as fact?

This sound like the type of gossip that would come from fans that follow the likes of Wrg's Bulldog or Paul Hamilton.

I'll mention this once more and then drop it: you should really lighten up or you're almost certainly going to get kicked off this board again.

[nfreeman]

[/b]

No they don't and have said as much. They are too focused on the future to take advantage of the now. The only thing the Sabres have going for them is Miller. He has to been exceptional for the Sabres to even compete. The "core" of this team is soft and continues to disappoint. The so called "leadership" brought in from the outside has had little or no effect. The Sabres have Miller, Myers and a bunch of question marks.

 

To answer your question. Pittsburg and Washington's second best players are better than any Sabre skater or group of skaters. I would take Malkin and Semin and easily give up four or five players from the current roster including Myers. The Sabres are what they are, a team with a hot goaltender. That's it. They are nothing more. Any thoughts that Regier will make a move to change that is wishful thinking.

Right, but I wouldn't trade Miller and Myers for Malkin and Semin (although I would for Malkin and Crosby, of course).

 

I think the rest is well overstated. If the brought-in leadership has had no effect, why are the Sabres near the top of the EC, when before the leadership was imported they were nowhere?

 

I picked these two lines out because they stuck out to me, specifically the part about the d-man and the scoring forward. In terms of them making that move or two, are you talking about it happening this season or in the future? I can't help but think that they hope to fill that stay at home guy and the scoring forward roles long-term with Weber and Ennis. That seems like the ideal situation, obviously hoping that they do in fact pan out. The best case scenario is that all the pieces are in house already, but obviously that's not all that likely. I don't see anything in house filling those other two roles, so maybe that comes in the one or two deals you hope/expect to see.

This sounds right, but I would of course love to see an import or 2 at the deadline.

 

I may not have been clear when talking about a a solid face off man. I want a guy that is a capable 2nd or 3rd line center who excels at face offs.

+1

 

I think they will make a move or two at the deadline and I think they expect Ennis and Weber to play next year. I don't think they see Ennis as the scoring forward, however, but as the eventual replacement for Roy. As I said a few times in the past. I can't see a team succeeding with two guys the size and skill set of Roy and Ennis among the top 6 forwards.

I think Roy and Ennis can coexist in the top 6, but when you add Pommer then you are very close to having too many smurfs. I'd be quite happy to turn either Roy or Pommer into a blood-and-guts top 6 forward who can score a little (ie a guy like Stafford but with Brenden Morrow's attitude).

 

Unfortunately, Kennedy is a good center but is not capable of winning a faceoff.

It will be interesting to see whether he can improve. This might be one of those facets of the game where size and strength really matter.

 

Roy was the third center in 05/06 and that year was an abheration because of how the game was called. And neither Roy or Ennis is working out aas 3rd or 4th liners so its top 6 or nothing for both.

Wasn't he actually the #4 center that year (behind Briere, TC and Drury)?

 

I'm not sure Roy can't be the #3 center.

 

I forget there are only two levels of toughness. Soft and Broad Street Bullies :doh: I see that you have the same eye for "toughness" as Regier. Look at the Penguins last year. One of their most talented players, Malkin, is also pretty f'n tough and played like it during the playoffs. No one in the Sabres "core" has the talent and ability to play with such toughness. Crosby plays a tough relentless game. The Sabres don't have a player who can play a Brooks Orpik type of game on the blueline. And don't forget the toughness a Bill Guerin brought to the team.

 

I'm looking at the list of recent Stanly Cup Champions and I can't a winner that didn't far much more toughness than the Sabres do right now. It most every case the best players on the Stanley Cup Champions were also some of their toughest :

 

Malkin

Zetterberg

Pronger

Brind A'Mour

St Louis

Niedermayer

 

All examples of talent and toughness. The Sabres have no equivalent.

I agree with this post 100% (except for including St. Louis in that list). The Sabres have no one in their top 6 forwards or their top 3 defensemen who plays with any kind of edge. Cup winners need guys like that.

 

As for Kennedy's demotion coinciding with their losing streak, the connection is that Kennedy's poor play contributed to their losses. It happens. Young players hit a wall. He will be an important part of this team's future, maybe even the immediate future.

One final point, remember I started this thread to point out that I thought the Sabres were in a position to contend for the Cup this year. While I would like their chances better if Roy was playing wing or better yet on another team, I don't think his being on the team is a major detriment to those chances.

I agree on Kennedy and even that the Sabres could be a contender this year IF a couple of strong moves are made at the deadline. They do need a couple of pieces to get there though.

 

As for Orpik, first I think he's overated, second I think Lydman is his equal.

Gotta call BS on this.

 

I can't remember one game this year where I left thinking the Sabres lost because the other team out-toughed them.

I hate to say it, but I felt this happened in the last Ottawa game.

[shrader]

League scoring or not, 2005-2007 is proof positive that what you said about the Sabres team being an aberation relying on calls to score was complete MYTH.

With or without a season where officials called more penalties that team scored goals.

Officials didn't stop them and neither did league scoring.

And they'd still be scoring today, other skill teams are.

 

I wasn't about the calls that were made so much as the fear that certain calls would occur. The D didn't hold up attacking forwards then thinking that the interference call would be made. That opened up the ice allowing speed and skill to have some fun. That fear is gone now and the D obstructs at will. The game has slowed down again and skill has been dampened. Sure, some teams can find their ways, but not many.

[tom webster]

Right, but I wouldn't trade Miller and Myers for Malkin and Semin (although I would for Malkin and Crosby, of course).

 

I think the rest is well overstated. If the brought-in leadership has had no effect, why are the Sabres near the top of the EC, when before the leadership was imported they were nowhere?

 

 

This sounds right, but I would of course love to see an import or 2 at the deadline.

 

 

+1

 

 

I think Roy and Ennis can coexist in the top 6, but when you add Pommer then you are very close to having too many smurfs. I'd be quite happy to turn either Roy or Pommer into a blood-and-guts top 6 forward who can score a little (ie a guy like Stafford but with Brenden Morrow's attitude).

 

 

It will be interesting to see whether he can improve. This might be one of those facets of the game where size and strength really matter.

 

 

Wasn't he actually the #4 center that year (behind Briere, TC and Drury)?

 

I'm not sure Roy can't be the #3 center.

 

 

I agree with this post 100% (except for including St. Louis in that list). The Sabres have no one in their top 6 forwards or their top 3 defensemen who plays with any kind of edge. Cup winners need guys like that.

 

 

I agree on Kennedy and even that the Sabres could be a contender this year IF a couple of strong moves are made at the deadline. They do need a couple of pieces to get there though.

 

 

Gotta call BS on this.

 

 

I hate to say it, but I felt this happened in the last Ottawa game.

 

In that game the Sabres took complete control of that game in the third period only to have a defensive breakdown cost them a late goal followed by an empty net goal. A physically beaten team doesn't come on in the third period like that.

 

I'll stand by my Orpik being overrated statement.

[deluca67]

Right, but I wouldn't trade Miller and Myers for Malkin and Semin (although I would for Malkin and Crosby, of course).

 

I think the rest is well overstated. If the brought-in leadership has had no effect, why are the Sabres near the top of the EC, when before the leadership was imported they were nowhere?

 

 

This sounds right, but I would of course love to see an import or 2 at the deadline.

 

 

+1

 

 

I think Roy and Ennis can coexist in the top 6, but when you add Pommer then you are very close to having too many smurfs. I'd be quite happy to turn either Roy or Pommer into a blood-and-guts top 6 forward who can score a little (ie a guy like Stafford but with Brenden Morrow's attitude).

 

 

It will be interesting to see whether he can improve. This might be one of those facets of the game where size and strength really matter.

 

 

Wasn't he actually the #4 center that year (behind Briere, TC and Drury)?

 

I'm not sure Roy can't be the #3 center.

 

 

I agree with this post 100% (except for including St. Louis in that list). The Sabres have no one in their top 6 forwards or their top 3 defensemen who plays with any kind of edge. Cup winners need guys like that.

 

 

I agree on Kennedy and even that the Sabres could be a contender this year IF a couple of strong moves are made at the deadline. They do need a couple of pieces to get there though.

 

 

Gotta call BS on this.

 

 

I hate to say it, but I felt this happened in the last Ottawa game.

I was not including Miller in the group of players I would trade for either Malkin or Semin.

 

I will disagree on St Louis, I think he play with a tremendous edge. He can even be a little dirty at times. I would love for a Roy, Gerbe or Ennis to have his all around game.

[TomSmith]

I'll mention this once more and then drop it: you should really lighten up or you're almost certainly going to get kicked off this board again.

Are you a moderator?

You shouldn't be.

A moderator should be someone that is even handed and not someone targeting specific people based on the fact that they might not like their hockey opinions.

 

I don't scour through your posts looking to list each comments out of contaxt that might be construed as out of line in an effort to drop hints to a mod.

That thought wouldn't cross my mind, too trivial.

 

It's a more than a little bit disingenuous when you filter the other parties comments out.

But then again the game you are trying to play is underhanded and as transparent as it gets.

 

It's nothing new, there's only a small number of people on forums that debate topics without out any need or intention of engaging in that garbage.

[TomSmith]

I wasn't about the calls that were made so much as the fear that certain calls would occur. The D didn't hold up attacking forwards then thinking that the interference call would be made. That opened up the ice allowing speed and skill to have some fun. That fear is gone now and the D obstructs at will. The game has slowed down again and skill has been dampened. Sure, some teams can find their ways, but not many.

The game has slowed down for teams choosing to play slow down systems like Buffalo.

League scoring isn't significantly different than in 2006-2007 when Buffalo had it's big season scoring wise.

That same team taking the same approach would score goals the same way today.

 

Buffalo's struggles with scoring are two fold, that don't have as many skill players and Ruff's system reduces scoring chances.

Evidenced by the fact that scoring is down for nearly all of his forwards.

[tom webster]

The game has slowed down for teams choosing to play slow down systems like Buffalo.

League scoring isn't significantly different than in 2006-2007 when Buffalo had it's big season scoring wise.

That same team taking the same approach would score goals the same way today.Buffalo's struggles with scoring are two fold, that don't have as many skill players and Ruff's system reduces scoring chances.

Evidenced by the fact that scoring is down for nearly all of his forwards.

 

 

This is simply not true. While scoring has come back a little, scoring was significantly down the last two years. Only Washington, this year is going to come close to topping the 300 goal mark.

 

Last year, only 2 teams topped 270 goals. The year before, only two teams topped 260.

 

I have no problem with you stating your hockey opinions but please let the facts get in the way. I've enjoyed our little tet a tet even if I think you undervalue role players but to argue that the game hasn't changed and that scoring isn't significantly down flies in the face of factual evidence to the contrary.

[shrader]

I'll mention this once more and then drop it: you should really lighten up or you're almost certainly going to get kicked off this board again.

 

 

Are you a moderator?You shouldn't be.

 

Well freeman, I think we just got proof for what you were implying in your post.

[TomSmith]

This is simply not true. While scoring has come back a little, scoring was significantly down the last two years. Only Washington, this year is going to come close to topping the 300 goal mark.

 

Last year, only 2 teams topped 270 goals. The year before, only two teams topped 260.

 

I have no problem with you stating your hockey opinions but please let the facts get in the way. I've enjoyed our little tet a tet even if I think you undervalue role players but to argue that the game hasn't changed and that scoring isn't significantly down flies in the face of factual evidence to the contrary.

Before you claim to have the facts, state what they are.

 

What is the league scoring for each year since the lockout and what pace is the league on this year.

 

I have no problem with you stating opinion but don't tell me that you have the facts without presenting them.

 

Telling me that last year only 2 teams scored over 270 goals is proof of nothing.

GUESS HOW MANY TEAMS SCORED OVER 270 in 2006-2007?

ANSWER: 2

NOW DOES IT LOOK LIKE YOU'VE EDUCATED ANYONE, LET ALONE ME, ON THE FACTS?

ANSWER: HELL NO

 

 

Here's a link

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fetchKey=20072ALLAAAAll&sort=goals&viewName=goalsFor

 

Know the topic before you start lecturing me as if you do.

You stand corrected.