Are the Sabres that far off?

[tom webster]

During the Olympic break I have had numerous conversations with posters I respect who feel that Buffalo is a ways away from being a contender. I, too have been of that belief.

I do believe they are a flawed team. I am not a fan of Derek Roy, feel they need another scoring forward, would like a rugged, stay at home defenseman, a quarterback for the power play and a face-off specialist.

However, as I turn 50, I hope that I have learned something about sports, the teams and their fans. One absolute is that even the most optimistic fans are usually overly critical of the team they see 70 to 80 games per year as opposed to players they see once, twice or maybe 6 times a year. If Ovechkin and Crosby really gave 100% every shift, wouldn't they have like 150 goals and 300 points?

Anyway, I spent some time going over the rosters and stats of some of the other probable playoff teams. In my humble opinion, only 4 teams have a clear talent advantage over the Sabres. Pittsburgh, Washington, San Jose and Chicago. And Washington and Chicago have serious goaltender issues.

I know that a lot is reliant on Miller but aren't Pittsburgh and Washington similarly reliant on Crosby and Ovechkin? If Miller truly elevates his play to among the league's best, doesn't that compensate for some of the flaws? And do they have to apologize for that?

 

I think the Sabres will make a move or two. I will be disappointed if they don't. And the biggest reason I think they will is because they think they can win it all.

[TomSmith]

A player that scored 70 points last season at $4 million is the weak link on this team?

 

We need a faceoff specialist even though they have Gaustad at $2.4 mil who skill wise doesn't do much more than take faceoffs?

 

Why do fans want stay at home one way Dmen?

If you had a choice wouldn't you rather have a Dman with a complete game?

[deluca67]

During the Olympic break I have had numerous conversations with posters I respect who feel that Buffalo is a ways away from being a contender. I, too have been of that belief.

I do believe they are a flawed team. I am not a fan of Derek Roy, feel they need another scoring forward, would like a rugged, stay at home defenseman, a quarterback for the power play and a face-off specialist.

However, as I turn 50, I hope that I have learned something about sports, the teams and their fans. One absolute is that even the most optimistic fans are usually overly critical of the team they see 70 to 80 games per year as opposed to players they see once, twice or maybe 6 times a year. If Ovechkin and Crosby really gave 100% every shift, wouldn't they have like 150 goals and 300 points?

Anyway, I spent some time going over the rosters and stats of some of the other probable playoff teams. In my humble opinion, only 4 teams have a clear talent advantage over the Sabres. Pittsburgh, Washington, San Jose and Chicago. And Washington and Chicago have serious goaltender issues.

I know that a lot is reliant on Miller but aren't Pittsburgh and Washington similarly reliant on Crosby and Ovechkin? If Miller truly elevates his play to among the league's best, doesn't that compensate for some of the flaws? And do they have to apologize for that?

 

I think the Sabres will make a move or two. I will be disappointed if they don't. And the biggest reason I think they will is because they think they can win it all.

No they don't and have said as much. They are too focused on the future to take advantage of the now. The only thing the Sabres have going for them is Miller. He has to been exceptional for the Sabres to even compete. The "core" of this team is soft and continues to disappoint. The so called "leadership" brought in from the outside has had little or no effect. The Sabres have Miller, Myers and a bunch of question marks.

 

To answer your question. Pittsburg and Washington's second best players are better than any Sabre skater or group of skaters. I would take Malkin and Semin and easily give up four or five players from the current roster including Myers. The Sabres are what they are, a team with a hot goaltender. That's it. They are nothing more. Any thoughts that Regier will make a move to change that is wishful thinking.

[shrader]

I am not a fan of Derek Roy, feel they need another scoring forward, would like a rugged, stay at home defenseman, a quarterback for the power play and a face-off specialist.

 

I think the Sabres will make a move or two. I will be disappointed if they don't. And the biggest reason I think they will is because they think they can win it all.

 

I picked these two lines out because they stuck out to me, specifically the part about the d-man and the scoring forward. In terms of them making that move or two, are you talking about it happening this season or in the future? I can't help but think that they hope to fill that stay at home guy and the scoring forward roles long-term with Weber and Ennis. That seems like the ideal situation, obviously hoping that they do in fact pan out. The best case scenario is that all the pieces are in house already, but obviously that's not all that likely. I don't see anything in house filling those other two roles, so maybe that comes in the one or two deals you hope/expect to see.

 

 

Why do fans want stay at home one way Dmen?If you had a choice wouldn't you rather have a Dman with a complete game?

 

Personally, I want balance. The most favorable setup I've seen had 4 mobile all around guys and 2 stay at home types in the lineup on any given night. Obviously it's even better if you can get your hands on a Pronger type who can do it all, but they don't grow on trees. I want balance and versatility out of my 6-7 d-men.

[tom webster]

[/b]

No they don't and have said as much. They are too focused on the future to take advantage of the now. The only thing the Sabres have going for them is Miller. He has to been exceptional for the Sabres to even compete. The "core" of this team is soft and continues to disappoint. The so called "leadership" brought in from the outside has had little or no effect. The Sabres have Miller, Myers and a bunch of question marks.

 

To answer your question. Pittsburg and Washington's second best players are better than any Sabre skater or group of skaters. I would take Malkin and Semin and easily give up four or five players from the current roster including Myers. The Sabres are what they are, a team with a hot goaltender. That's it. They are nothing more. Any thoughts that Regier will make a move to change that is wishful thinking.

 

 

You keep harping on one interview without paying any attention to two or three contradictory comments. The same way you keep harping on "soft." Other than Anahem, what team since the Broad Street Bullies "toughed" their way to the Cup?

[tom webster]

A player that scored 70 points last season at $4 million is the weak link on this team?

 

We need a faceoff specialist even though they have Gaustad at $2.4 mil who skill wise doesn't do much more than take faceoffs?

 

Why do fans want stay at home one way Dmen?

If you had a choice wouldn't you rather have a Dman with a complete game?

 

1) Didn't call Roy a "weak link." I said I didn't like him.

2) Need another guy to take draws besides Gaustad and they don't have one.

3) A championship team has players playing certain roles. I don't believe a team full of 18 well rounded players wins anything.

[MattPie]

However, as I turn 50, I hope that I have learned something about sports, the teams and their fans. One absolute is that even the most optimistic fans are usually overly critical of the team they see 70 to 80 games per year as opposed to players they see once, twice or maybe 6 times a year. If Ovechkin and Crosby really gave 100% every shift, wouldn't they have like 150 goals and 300 points?

 

I think you're spot on with this one. I remember thinking, 'WhyTF would Calgary trade Phaenuf?' but you listen they the Calgaray fans and he's a bum. I suspect he's a bit like Campbell. You see the big hits on SportsCenter, the goals, and a couple good plays and suddenly this guys is amazing. I suspect you could watch any player for a season and see some bad games, lazy shifts, etc.

 

Golfers are the same way, incidentally. When I was kid my Dad and I followed Greg Norman around for an entire round at the Canadian open. While fewer than Joe Hacker, he hit his share into the rough, missed greens, etc.

[TomSmith]

1) Didn't call Roy a "weak link." I said I didn't like him.

2) Need another guy to take draws besides Gaustad and they don't have one.

3) A championship team has players playing certain roles. I don't believe a team full of 18 well rounded players wins anything.

I guess I just assumed you were talking hockey when you said you didn't like Roy.

On a personal basis I don't like or dislike him, because I really don't know who or what he is outside of hockey.

 

As far as faceoffs go, I agree that it is a problem but maybe not in the same way you do.

I think it hurts the team to constantly throw a low skill player out there to take faceoffs.

In my mind they're losing more then they're gaining by doing that.

[PromoTheRobot]

We need Chris Drury. Period.

 

PTR

[TomSmith]

You keep harping on one interview without paying any attention to two or three contradictory comments. The same way you keep harping on "soft." Other than Anahem, what team since the Broad Street Bullies "toughed" their way to the Cup?

Answer: None

 

Anaheim won it with a team losded with talent.

I'm tired of hearing all this soft garbage, it's overstated to the point of being pathetic.

[tom webster]

I guess I just assumed you were talking hockey when you said you didn't like Roy.

On a personal basis I don't like or dislike him, because I really don't know who or what he is outside of hockey.

 

As far as faceoffs go, I agree that it is a problem but maybe not in the same way you do.

I think it hurts the team to constantly throw a low skill player out there to take faceoffs.

In my mind they're losing more then they're gaining by doing that.

 

a) I do mean hockey whem I'm talking about Roy. But not liking his play is a far cry from calling him a weak link.

b) I may not have been clear when talking about a a solid face off man. I want a guy that is a capable 2nd or 3rd line center who excels at face offs.

[TomSmith]

We need Chris Drury. Period.

 

PTR

We lost skill players and need to replace them with skill players to return to contention.

But the majority of fans I see on forums think the opposite.

Most of them think players like Gaustad and Grier lead teams to cups and they're looking for a heavier dose of that.

 

I see posts where fans want to trade Roy and picks for players like Jarrett Stoll, it's moronic.

[TomSmith]

a) I do mean hockey whem I'm talking about Roy. But not liking his play is a far cry from calling him a weak link.

b) I may not have been clear when talking about a a solid face off man. I want a guy that is a capable 2nd or 3rd line center who excels at face offs.

I can agree on the second point you make to the extent that on the 3rd line we have Gaustad who is good at faceoffs but is not a capable 3rd line center.

 

I think 3rd line center is the #1 problem for this team and I strongly favor putting Kennedy there unless they have someone better.

 

Playing Gaustad there is huge handicap in my opinion.

[tom webster]

I picked these two lines out because they stuck out to me, specifically the part about the d-man and the scoring forward. In terms of them making that move or two, are you talking about it happening this season or in the future? I can't help but think that they hope to fill that stay at home guy and the scoring forward roles long-term with Weber and Ennis. That seems like the ideal situation, obviously hoping that they do in fact pan out. The best case scenario is that all the pieces are in house already, but obviously that's not all that likely. I don't see anything in house filling those other two roles, so maybe that comes in the one or two deals you hope/expect to see.

 

 

 

 

Personally, I want balance. The most favorable setup I've seen had 4 mobile all around guys and 2 stay at home types in the lineup on any given night. Obviously it's even better if you can get your hands on a Pronger type who can do it all, but they don't grow on trees. I want balance and versatility out of my 6-7 d-men.

 

 

I think they will make a move or two at the deadline and I think they expect Ennis and Weber to play next year. I don't think they see Ennis as the scoring forward, however, but as the eventual replacement for Roy. As I said a few times in the past. I can't see a team succeeding with two guys the size and skill set of Roy and Ennis among the top 6 forwards.

[TomSmith]

I think they will make a move or two at the deadline and I think they expect Ennis and Weber to play next year. I don't think they see Ennis as the scoring forward, however, but as the eventual replacement for Roy. As I said a few times in the past. I can't see a team succeeding with two guys the size and skill set of Roy and Ennis among the top 6 forwards.

It worked pretty good with Roy and Briere.

Back to back ECFs and likely a cup if it wasn't for a ton of injuries on defense.

As far as them both being in the top six that's not a must, but it could work either way.

 

I don't think for a second that their objective is to use Ennis as a replacement for Roy.

[carpandean]

I can agree on the second point you make to the extent that on the 3rd line we have Gaustad who is good at faceoffs but is not a capable 3rd line center.

 

I think 3rd line center is the #1 problem for this team and I strongly favor putting Kennedy there unless they have someone better.

 

Playing Gaustad there is huge handicap in my opinion.

Unfortunately, Kennedy is a good center but is not capable of winning a faceoff.

[tom webster]

It worked pretty good with Roy and Briere.

Back to back ECFs and likely a cup if it wasn't for a ton of injuries on defense.

As far as them both being in the top six that's not a must, but it could work either way.

 

I don't think for a second that their objective is to use Ennis as a replacement for Roy.

 

 

Roy was the third center in 05/06 and that year was an abheration because of how the game was called. And neither Roy or Ennis is working out aas 3rd or 4th liners so its top 6 or nothing for both.

[TomSmith]

Roy was the third center in 05/06 and that year was an abheration because of how the game was called. And neither Roy or Ennis is working out aas 3rd or 4th liners so its top 6 or nothing for both.

Abberation because of how the game was called?

LOL oh Lord!

 

Ennis or Roy isn't working out as a 3rd liner?

I didn't catch those games where they played there.

 

You might have missed the fact they they played a rookie named Kennedy there and he's no giant.

That worked well, then Kennedy was moved to the 4th line and they went on a losing streak.

[tom webster]

Abberation because how the game was called?

LOL oh Lord!

 

Ennis or Roy isn't working out as a 3rd liner?

I didn't catch those games where they played there.

 

You might have missed the fact they they played a rookie named Kennedy there and he's no giant.

That worked well, then Kennedy was moved to the 4th line and they went on a losing streak.

 

 

Apparently you have missed the fact that the game was called different after the lockout then it is now. I could list 20 guys that had career years that year that are non factors now.

 

Its not the size that disqualifies them from being a third line center but rather how they play. Also, Ennis is back at wing and that is probably where he will end up. When I say he will end up replacing Roy, its by playing wing and another center being brought in to replace Roy.

[TomSmith]

Apparently you have missed the fact that the game was called different after the lockout then it is now. I could list 20 guys that had career years that year that are non factors now.

 

Its not the size that disqualifies them from being a third line center but rather how they play. Also, Ennis is back at wing and that is probably where he will end up. When I say he will end up replacing Roy, its by playing wing and another center being brought in to replace Roy.

You think that the game was called differently and suddendly players like Roy and Breire are rendered ineffective.

ARE you going to give me that garbage about today's NHL?

 

Didn't Roy score 70 points last year?

 

Another thing you might nor know is that 2005-2006 was the year when they called an inordinate number of penalties.

 

BUT BUFFALO'S BIGGEST SCORING YEAR SINCE THE LOCKOUT WAS IN 2006-2007

HOW DO YOU PLAN ON EXPLAINING AWAY THAT 'ABBERATION'?

HUH?

 

I don't know where you get the idea that they are bring in another player to replace Roy, and I don't even think you know where you got that idea from.

[deluca67]

You keep harping on one interview without paying any attention to two or three contradictory comments. The same way you keep harping on "soft." Other than Anahem, what team since the Broad Street Bullies "toughed" their way to the Cup?

I forget there are only two levels of toughness. Soft and Broad Street Bullies :doh: I see that you have the same eye for "toughness" as Regier. Look at the Penguins last year. One of their most talented players, Malkin, is also pretty f'n tough and played like it during the playoffs. No one in the Sabres "core" has the talent and ability to play with such toughness. Crosby plays a tough relentless game. The Sabres don't have a player who can play a Brooks Orpik type of game on the blueline. And don't forget the toughness a Bill Guerin brought to the team.

 

I'm looking at the list of recent Stanly Cup Champions and I can't a winner that didn't far much more toughness than the Sabres do right now. It most every case the best players on the Stanley Cup Champions were also some of their toughest :

 

Malkin

Zetterberg

Pronger

Brind A'Mour

St Louis

Niedermayer

 

All examples of talent and toughness. The Sabres have no equivalent.

[tom webster]

You think that the game was called differently and suddendly players like Roy and Breire are rendered ineffective.

ARE you going to give me that garbage about today's NHL?

 

Didn't Roy score 70 points last year?

 

Another thing you might nor know is that 2005-2006 was the year when they call an inordinate number of penalties.

 

BUT BUFFALO'S BIGGEST SCORING YEAR SINCE THE LOCKOUT WAS IN 2006-2007

HOW DO YOU PLAN ON EXPLAINING AWAY THAT 'ABBERATION'?

HUH?

 

I don't know where you get the idea that they are bring in another player to replace Roy, I don't think you know where you get that idea from.

 

Yes the Sabres scored 24 more goals in 06/07, but league scoring was down and continued to drop until this year. More to the point, however, is that that style of play that allowed them to score so well during the season proved ineffective in the playoffs. No team has ever won the Cup trying to play 3 equal lines as opposed to having 2 top scoring lines.

I never said that today's NHL renders Roy, or Briere for that matter, ineffective. Its Roy stubbornness and refusal to play the way he is told that is the problem and that almost got him traded this off season. He will be lucky to be here next year if he makes it past the trade deadline.

What I have said, is that you cannot have too many of the same kind of players on the team and you cannot have two players the size and style of Ennis and Roy amongst your top 6.

As for Kennedy's demotion coinciding with their losing streak, the connection is that Kennedy's poor play contributed to their losses. It happens. Young players hit a wall. He will be an important part of this team's future, maybe even the immediate future.

One final point, remember I started this thread to point out that I thought the Sabres were in a position to contend for the Cup this year. While I would like their chances better if Roy was playing wing or better yet on another team, I don't think his being on the team is a major detriment to those chances.

[wjag]

I truly believe if the Sabres can return to their style of play in Nov-Dec, they can beat anyone in the playoffs. They have enough scoring to win 3-2, 3-1, 2-1. It takes a dedication to playing a defensive minded system that doesn't allow odd man rushes, protects the crease and kills penalties. A hot goalie (check), a solid defense (check) and an opportunistic offense (check) can win it all.

[tom webster]

I forget there are only two levels of toughness. Soft and Broad Street Bullies :doh: I see that you have the same eye for "toughness" as Regier. Look at the Penguins last year. One of their most talented players, Malkin, is also pretty f'n tough and played like it during the playoffs. No one in the Sabres "core" has the talent and ability to play with such toughness. Crosby plays a tough relentless game. The Sabres don't have a player who can play a Brooks Orpik type of game on the blueline. And don't forget the toughness a Bill Guerin brought to the team.

 

I'm looking at the list of recent Stanly Cup Champions and I can't a winner that didn't far much more toughness than the Sabres do right now. It most every case the best players on the Stanley Cup Champions were also some of their toughest :

 

Malkin

Zetterberg

Pronger

Brind A'Mour

St Louis

Niedermayer

 

All examples of talent and toughness. The Sabres have no equivalent.

 

 

And, other than Pronger and Brind'Amour, how exactly are you quantifying that toughness? As for Orpik, first I think he's overated, second I think Lydman is his equal.

[SabresRepublic]

Answer: None

 

Anaheim won it with a team losd with talent.

I'm tired of hearing all this soft garbage, it's overstated to the point of being pathetic.

 

I totally agree! What is actually aptitude and skill in the aggregate as far as the Sabres season thus far is eclipsed by the cry

from those who would tilt the game toward an earlier time when the NHL was courting brutes and bullies.

 

I heard it said twice in Vancouver that NHL is the premier hockey venue(NOT exact words) in the world but the KHL wants to change all that!

The Russians and in general the international hockey community are committed to perfection of aptitude and skill!