GAME DISCUSSION THREAD

[deluca67]

Excellent post.

 

 

While it might be nice to see Ovechkin brought in today for Stafford and MacArthur, a major trade at this point isn't likely to happen. (Yeah, I know you aren't expecting a trade that unrealistic, it was merely used for emphasis.) I assume that you are looking to see the Sabres bring in a top 6 forward rather than another Paille.

 

The reason it won't happen today isn't due to Darcy making no trades in season prior to the trade deadline (he does in fact on occassion make in season trades); and it is only partially due to Darcy trying to get absolute top value for the assets he currently holds.

 

A big part of the reason that there won't be many major trades prior to the deadline is that you currently have 13 teams in the Wales that are w/in 4 points of the playoffs and 13 teams in the Campbell that are w/in 8 points of the playoffs (11 are w/in 6 pts). So 26 teams are w/in 1 hot streak of being in the playoffs. There are only 2 teams in the league that MIGHT be willing to admit today that they have no possible way to make the playoffs this year.

 

How do you figure that an opposing GM is willing to accept less today to admit that he's building for the future and is writing off this year than he will be ~1 month from now at the deadline? Most GMs are not overly anxious to trade today's asset for tomorrow's one before he has to. Why would LA trade Ryan Smyth for prospects today when they are in a battle for the last playoff spot? Wouldn't Lombardi be MORE willing to trade him for that sort of package at the deadline if the Kings were drifting severely downward? Right now there are probably ~10-15 teams that would be interested in picking up Smyth; at the deadline that # would definitely decrease and possibly even be cut in 1/2. So there are likely fewer parties vying for his services at the deadline than there are today. While there may be more desperation on the part of buyers at the deadline, there will also be a larger pool of "available" rentals which will likely in large part offset the "desperation premium." There is also additional desperation on the part of sellers (see Kovy below).

 

Or do you figure that a team that is looking to go D for F or vice versa (shoring up a weakness by weakening a strength) and believes it can make the playoffs will want a Paetsch today but will want a Tallinder or Lydman in 1 month?

 

Or do you figure that a guy that is going to become an UFA will be traded cheaper today that he will be when the GM is looking at a hard and fast 1 hour left to deal him or he gets nothing? Waddell knows he has to either sign Kovy (not likely) or trade him (ding, ding, ding, we have a winner) or lose him for nothing (extremely not likely, but hey this is Don friggin' Waddell we're talking about, so anything's possible). If Kovy goes at a discount it isn't going to occur prior to the Olympics, I can guarantee you that.

 

If those aren't the basis for the statement, please tell me what the basis was.

I must be really old, I remember when trades were made before the idea o f a "rent-a-player" or salary dumps. It truly is a sad state of the franchise if they can not execute a trade to improve the current roster unless they sellout the future or over spend money wise. There are a lot of players out there that can improve this teams overall defense and ability to get more consistent scoring. It wont take a all-star to improve either.

[Eleven]

I must be really old, I remember when trades were made before the idea o f a "rent-a-player" or salary dumps. It truly is a sad state of the franchise if they can not execute a trade to improve the current roster unless they sellout the future or over spend money wise. There are a lot of players out there that can improve this teams overall defense and ability to get more consistent scoring. It wont take a all-star to improve either.

 

They certainly can make a trade now, if they choose to. They can get a better deal closer to the deadline, though.

[nucci]

I have the same question. My thinking is that it's a lot of "coach speak" going into the playoffs. But things are different once they get there. There is definately more of a premium paid to the defensive end of things once the playoffs start. IMHO it has a lot to do with estabishing momentum. For whatever reason scoring that first goal in a playoff game and not giving it up is critical. Even the refs change their style. What's called in the regular season isn't in the playoffs and they essentially swallow their whistles in the 3rd period where nothing short of a mugging will be called.

 

GO SABRES!!!

Not so true anymore.

[Taro T]

I must be really old, I remember when trades were made before the idea o f a "rent-a-player" or salary dumps. It truly is a sad state of the franchise if they can not execute a trade to improve the current roster unless they sellout the future or over spend money wise. There are a lot of players out there that can improve this teams overall defense and ability to get more consistent scoring. It wont take a all-star to improve either.

I covered that situation in the "shoring up a weakness by weakening a strength" part of my post.

 

As you conveniently ignored my question, please riddle me this Batman (I'd imagine you're old enough to remember that phrase as well ;) ) how is the price of making even this sort of trade going to go UP at the deadline?

 

Who says they have to sellout the future or overspend money wise? I am simply stating that the price of players that would come back to Buffalo in a trade do not necessarily go up in price, and quite often can go down in price at the deadline.

[nucci]

Islanders just put 46 shots on Devils winning 4-0.

[wjag]

Islanders just put 46 shots on Devils winning 4-0.

 

 

ergo.... the Devils must suck..

[nucci]

ergo.... the Devils must suck..

Well, yeah. They need to start playing a full 60 minutes.

[NowDoYouBelieve]

ergo.... the Devils must suck..

 

 

Well, yeah. They need to start playing a full 60 minutes.

 

Wow, the Devils have lost 3 must win games in a row!

[deluca67]

I covered that situation in the "shoring up a weakness by weakening a strength" part of my post.

 

As you conveniently ignored my question, please riddle me this Batman (I'd imagine you're old enough to remember that phrase as well ;) ) how is the price of making even this sort of trade going to go UP at the deadline?

 

Who says they have to sellout the future or overspend money wise? I am simply stating that the price of players that would come back to Buffalo in a trade do not necessarily go up in price, and quite often can go down in price at the deadline.

If we are talking about bringing in a difference maker at the deadline the Sabres can't compete with the NHL big spenders. They are going to drive the price up out of the Sabres price range. The Sabres should be aggressive now and get a deal done instead of the old "waiting to see what the market bares." Identify player(s) that fill the needs of this team and start negotiations today. I'm not talking Kovy simply because he is out of the Sabres price range for what it would take to simply get his rights. There are players out there that can/will help this team in the playoffs. They don't have to be players a team is even thinking about trading at this point. A old fashion mutually beneficial trade. Don't wait to pick the bones for another useless Dominic Moore type. Bring in a quality forward that makes this team better. Bring in a top four level blueliner to sure up this teams defense.

[Taro T]

If we are talking about bringing in a difference maker at the deadline the Sabres can't compete with the NHL big spenders. They are going to drive the price up out of the Sabres price range. The Sabres should be aggressive now and get a deal done instead of the old "waiting to see what the market bares." Identify player(s) that fill the needs of this team and start negotiations today. I'm not talking Kovy simply because he is out of the Sabres price range for what it would take to simply get his rights. There are players out there that can/will help this team in the playoffs. They don't have to be players a team is even thinking about trading at this point. A old fashion mutually beneficial trade. Don't wait to pick the bones for another useless Dominic Moore type. Bring in a quality forward that makes this team better. Bring in a top four level blueliner to sure up this teams defense.

You have heard that there is a salary cap in place, correct? With that being the case, please explain to me how the "NHL big spenders" can "drive the price up out of the Sabres price range" "at the deadline." I can see how the price could be too high during the off-season, but right now budgets are set and teams have whatever cap room they have. Or are you referring to a team spending assets such as players? If that's what you refer to, how could the Sabres "outspend" them today but not at the deadline?

 

I am also waiting for your explanation of how LA (or whatever team you prefer) would want less for Ryan Smyth (or whatever player you prefer) today than they'd want for him at the deadline.

 

DeLuca, I am fine w/ the Sabres making a trade to improve the team. I simply disagree that the price of such a deal will be higher at the deadline, and haven't seen any reason yet to suspect that the price will be higher. If anything, the price should be lower at the deadline.

[deluca67]

You have heard that there is a salary cap in place, correct? With that being the case, please explain to me how the "NHL big spenders" can "drive the price up out of the Sabres price range" "at the deadline." I can see how the price could be too high during the off-season, but right now budgets are set and teams have whatever cap room they have. Or are you referring to a team spending assets such as players? If that's what you refer to, how could the Sabres "outspend" them today but not at the deadline?

 

I am also waiting for your explanation of how LA (or whatever team you prefer) would want less for Ryan Smyth (or whatever player you prefer) today than they'd want for him at the deadline.

 

DeLuca, I am fine w/ the Sabres making a trade to improve the team. I simply disagree that the price of such a deal will be higher at the deadline, and haven't seen any reason yet to suspect that the price will be higher. If anything, the price should be lower at the deadline.

Referring to "assets", right now they would only be bidding against themselves. Identify a player and come with a strong offer. Don't give the teams that toss around draft picks and prospects as if they mean nothing a chance. I'm telling you this, you don't have to like the messenger just don't ignore the message, with Miller's season the Sabres are close. He has them at he top of the standings. This team needs to get more aggressive on the ice and in making the improvements needed. It's time to look at this team in regards to are they playoff ready. Are they a team that will do the little dirty selfless things that Stanley Cup Champions do? I don't see it.

[Eleven]

Referring to "assets", right now they would only be bidding against themselves. Identify a player and come with a strong offer. Don't give the teams that toss around draft picks and prospects as if they mean nothing a chance. I'm telling you this, you don't have to like the messenger just don't ignore the message, with Miller's season the Sabres are close. He has them at he top of the standings. This team needs to get more aggressive on the ice and in making the improvements needed. It's time to look at this team in regards to are they playoff ready. Are they a team that will do the little dirty selfless things that Stanley Cup Champions do? I don't see it.

 

I can't speak for Taro T, but since my posts and his have had the same points, I'll say this: I don't dislike the messenger at all. It's good having you around this board. But I completely disagree with the message. No team is doing the dirty selfless things that Stanley Cup Champions do right now, because it isn't the playoffs. And deals just are cheaper at the deadline.

[BetweenThePipes00]

I can't speak for Taro T, but since my posts and his have had the same points, I'll say this: I don't dislike the messenger at all. It's good having you around this board. But I completely disagree with the message. No team is doing the dirty selfless things that Stanley Cup Champions do right now, because it isn't the playoffs. And deals just are cheaper at the deadline.

It's too early to say that ... all it takes is one other team bidding on a guy to drive the price of the trade up. Generally I think this evens out the fact that teams will be desperate to get something so they might take less. They MIGHT, but someone else might pay more, too. It doesn't hurt anything to start poking around now like DeLuca suggests.

[Eleven]

It's too early to say that ... all it takes is one other team bidding on a guy to drive the price of the trade up. Generally I think this evens out the fact that teams will be desperate to get something so they might take less. They MIGHT, but someone else might pay more, too. It doesn't hurt anything to start poking around now like DeLuca suggests.

 

I get that. But I don't think teams are ready to give up on their seasons, and on their best soon-to-be UFAs, just yet. I'll re-use the Campbell example; no way would the Sabres have made that trade in January.

 

I also agree that there's no harm in shopping right now. But I'm not sure there's a reason to disturb this roster right now, either.

[BetweenThePipes00]

I get that. But I don't think teams are ready to give up on their seasons, and on their best soon-to-be UFAs, just yet. I'll re-use the Campbell example; no way would the Sabres have made that trade in January.

 

I also agree that there's no harm in shopping right now. But I'm not sure there's a reason to disturb this roster right now, either.

 

 

Can't hurt to call Carolina or Edmonton at least, I think they are pretty much done ... besides, DeLuca even mentioned making a REAL hockey trade ... don't just look at rentals, be willing to give something to get something that will stay around a while and deal with another team also looking to get better or shake things up for the playoffs ... see if you can help Chicago out of cap jail next year and take a run at Sharp or Byufglien ... Calgary is struggling like crazy right now, they might be MORE desperate right now than at the deadline.

 

I like the run they are on too but it's not like they would be disturbing the 76 Canadiens here. I don't know if I would go as far as DeLuca to try to win it THIS YEAR, but I would be poking around for sure.

[deluca67]

I get that. But I don't think teams are ready to give up on their seasons, and on their best soon-to-be UFAs, just yet. I'll re-use the Campbell example; no way would the Sabres have made that trade in January.

 

I also agree that there's no harm in shopping right now. But I'm not sure there's a reason to disturb this roster right now, either.

I'm not talking dealing only in the potential UFA market. The Sabres should consider any player on any roster a possible Buffalo Sabre. Identify and be aggressive. People are comparing this team to the one three years ago. I think goaltending alone makes them better. This may be their closest chance since the Hasek days. I implore Regier to not let another chance at the Cup slip through this franchise's fingers.

 

The Campbell example doesn't work since the Sabres where still carrying the Drury and Briere baggage at that time. Had it been a normal situation with a team that is open to player movement who knows.

[JJFIVEOH]

It amazes me there are still people looking to make changes to this team. We're now #1 in the conference, and within reach of #1 in the league. The Sabres have the most balanced offense in the league, probably the most consistent team in the league and probably the largest group of 25+ potential goal scorers in the league. IMO the overall defensive scheme is second to none in the NHL. Most of the core players are signed long-term, most of the young players are progressing.

 

I still see people talking about adding a high scoring superstar to the team which would be one of the worst moves possible. When you start relying on one person you're doomed for failure. If he gets hurt or goes into a slump consider yourself done. Look at how up and down the teams are who only have one solid line. It's funny, all the out of town broadcasts I hear, all the forums I read, all the hockey shows I listen to........ all of them praise the Sabres as one of the best if not the best team in the league, with the best coaching and most discipline. The ONLY place I ever hear any criticism is from Sabres fans. It's all good, makes for a good discussion. But how picky can you get?

 

With the defensive style of play and balanced scoring on the team, most if not all of your favorite players are NOT going to live up to your perceived scoring potential. Doesn't mean they're not playing well, it's just not going to happen so get over it!:rolleyes:

Just like I said last year, this team is a team in progress. The organization groomed this club to learn from experience, learn from the coach and grow up around each other learning each others weaknesses and strengths. Unlike most teams that just try to buy a championship for a year. This team is only going to get better and will also keep the majority of its players for at least another few years. We should consider ourselves fortunate because there isn't any other team out there with the patience to do that.

[JujuFish]

When you start relying on one person you're doomed for failure.

This sentence here contradicts your entire post. The Sabres do rely on one person, Ryan Miller. Thus, it makes sense to add another strong player who can help this team succeed when Miller is off his game.

[SwampD]

The Isles are 8-2-1 in their last 11. When they figure out how to play with DiPietro, their are going to be pretty scary.

[JJFIVEOH]

This sentence here contradicts your entire post. The Sabres do rely on one person, Ryan Miller. Thus, it makes sense to add another strong player who can help this team succeed when Miller is off his game.

 

Perhaps, but that's a singular position. I'm talking about consistent/inconsistent teams as a whole. Yeah Miller has been a big part of the success, but the best teams will never go anywhere with a bad goaltender and a great goaltender will never go anywhere with a bad team (right Luongo?).

[Lethbridge Broncos]

Michael Angelo, after painting the chaple, according to reporters, wanted to go in and paint jsut a little more. The moral? Even when you have the right tonic -- you can improve. And the hockey come april and MAy will be nasty, emotional and hideous for any wimp. So you better go out now and at the deadline and add the fiber and passion and talent to the club -- be proactive. What the conference looks like now, adn whcih the sabres lead, is nothing like the storms they will be in -- once their first 7 games series starts. Me, i want to look down the bench and a see a few hired gun slingers who are ready to destroy everthing they approach for a cup ring. if that means lydman, butler and kenendy and sit -- then so be it.

 

 

 

 

It amazes me there are still people looking to make changes to this team. We're now #1 in the conference, and within reach of #1 in the league. The Sabres have the most balanced offense in the league, probably the most consistent team in the league and probably the largest group of 25+ potential goal scorers in the league. IMO the overall defensive scheme is second to none in the NHL. Most of the core players are signed long-term, most of the young players are progressing.

 

I still see people talking about adding a high scoring superstar to the team which would be one of the worst moves possible. When you start relying on one person you're doomed for failure. If he gets hurt or goes into a slump consider yourself done. Look at how up and down the teams are who only have one solid line. It's funny, all the out of town broadcasts I hear, all the forums I read, all the hockey shows I listen to........ all of them praise the Sabres as one of the best if not the best team in the league, with the best coaching and most discipline. The ONLY place I ever hear any criticism is from Sabres fans. It's all good, makes for a good discussion. But how picky can you get?

 

With the defensive style of play and balanced scoring on the team, most if not all of your favorite players are NOT going to live up to your perceived scoring potential. Doesn't mean they're not playing well, it's just not going to happen so get over it!:rolleyes:

Just like I said last year, this team is a team in progress. The organization groomed this club to learn from experience, learn from the coach and grow up around each other learning each others weaknesses and strengths. Unlike most teams that just try to buy a championship for a year. This team is only going to get better and will also keep the majority of its players for at least another few years. We should consider ourselves fortunate because there isn't any other team out there with the patience to do that.

[carpandean]

Michael Angelo, after painting the chaple, according to reporters, wanted to go in and paint jsut a little more.

Paint? I thought he played guitar ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rcc7IL18m0I

[Eleven]

I'm not talking dealing only in the potential UFA market. The Sabres should consider any player on any roster a possible Buffalo Sabre. Identify and be aggressive. People are comparing this team to the one three years ago. I think goaltending alone makes them better. This may be their closest chance since the Hasek days. I implore Regier to not let another chance at the Cup slip through this franchise's fingers.

 

The Campbell example doesn't work since the Sabres where still carrying the Drury and Briere baggage at that time. Had it been a normal situation with a team that is open to player movement who knows.

 

 

(1) If you can trade Connolly for Smyth and a third-round pick or something, by all means, do it.

 

(2) Your facts are wrong, and the example works just fine.. The Sabres were NOT carrying Drury and Briere when they traded Campbell. Drury already had been a Ranger for almost a season, and Briere, a Flyer. They left in 2007. That's why the Sabres traded Campbell; they realized (a) no run at the Cup in 2008, and (b) no way was Campbell worth the salary he would demand in the summer of 2008. And they waited until the deadline because no one was going to give up anything substantial before the deadline. AT the deadline, the best they could do was Bernier. This happens every year. This time, the Sabres will be buyers, if they feel the need to make a move at all (and as posters above have suggested, maybe they should not).

[Taro T]

Referring to "assets", right now they would only be bidding against themselves. Identify a player and come with a strong offer. Don't give the teams that toss around draft picks and prospects as if they mean nothing a chance. I'm telling you this, you don't have to like the messenger just don't ignore the message, with Miller's season the Sabres are close. He has them at he top of the standings. This team needs to get more aggressive on the ice and in making the improvements needed. It's time to look at this team in regards to are they playoff ready. Are they a team that will do the little dirty selfless things that Stanley Cup Champions do? I don't see it.

1st off, just because the Sabres offer x for player y from team a, what leads you to believe that team a won’t ask team b (or even teams c, d, and e) for package z for player y? There is no reason to believe a GM will only consider a single offer for a player or package of players unless there is a something significantly unusual about the trade and the GM is afraid that the whole thing will explode in his face if he shops the new package around. (The only recent one that fits that criteria off the top of my head is Joe Thornton being on the block and the B’s only talking to SJ about him for fear that if the deal fell through and Thornton and the team knew he was being shopped it would torpedo the B’s morale and chemistry and significantly lower Thornton’s trade value.) The opposing GM is going to look to maximize HIS assets (again w/ the possible exception of Don Waddell, but even he is going to TRY to maximize the Threshers’ assets), he is not going to look to help the Sabres (or any other team) any more than he has to. And if you are offering enough that the other GM isn't even going to try to solicit other offers, haven't you offered too much by definition?

 

I HIGHLY doubt that Darcy has NOT been inquiring around to others for what is available and roughly what it will take to get a deal done. EVERY GM is looking to improve his team and I’d be shocked if an entire week goes by that Darcy hasn’t talked to at minimum 75% of the league’s GM’s and it is probably closer to talking to 100% of them.

 

Every team should always be looking to improve (even the ’76 Habs and the ’85 Oilers). If a trade is available that is expected to make the Sabres better, they should make the trade. Every player is on the block (at some price), but some have non-hockey related intangibles that make them essentially untradeable. Some potential trades that might make the team better have non-hockey related issues which make them undoable (Briere for anyone back in ’07; Miller getting traded today (off the top of my head, I can’t think of what trade might be available for him (realistically or figuratively) that would make the team better although if the trade becomes theoretical enough I’m sure there is some package that would work)) unless the trade is ridiculously one sided in the Sabres favor and certain players (Miller, Myers) are essentially untouchable.

 

The Campbell example most certainly does work and it contradicts your thesis. The fact that it doesn’t fit your view of the world doesn’t mean that it doesn’t fit. Soupy would not have been traded in January for Bernier and a 1st, the Sabres had at least 1 better option - keeping him on their roster. By March the 3 best options left were: keep his services for that season and have 0 value left on that asset come July 1; take Bernier and a 1st for him; some other trade package that was determined by Darcy to have less value than Bernier and a 1st. By waiting until March to pull the trigger on the Bernier deal rather than making the trade in January, the Sabres got 2 months of Campbell’s services AND Bernier (minus 2 months of service) and a 1st (who’s value probably didn’t change over that stretch, but had SJ had Campbell all that time, maybe it’s value would have dropped a little as well) AND they didn't tell the team & fans that they didn't think they could make the playoffs back in January when they were in 5th place in the conference. The only risk the Sabres took in looking for a better deal was the possibility that Campbell would get injured (and he has been pretty resilient through his career) and that keeping Campbell around when everybody knew he’d get traded eventually would be more distracting than officially throwing in the towel in January and reducing the talent level on that club that particular year by converting “All-Star” Brian Campbell into “lots of potential” Bernier and “no benefit today, but potentially a stud in the future” 1st round pick. And the Sabres DID get value during those 2 months – they had Campbell playing hockey for them and THEORETICALLY could have signed him back then.

 

Believe it or not, I don’t have an issue w/ the messenger. I just think that you are trying to get a message to Pismo Beach and while looking at a road map are choosing the proverbial left turn in Albuquerque.

 

And I agree w/ 11, you aren't going to see many (any?) teams playing playoff hockey in January. If they are, they are not likely to have anything left in the tank come April.