Is Buffalo the smallest market in the NHL?

[Ted's Hot Dogs]

I was just pondering this exact question. The only city that could give Buffalo a run for it's money in the small market debate id Raliegh. So can anybody confirm that Buffalo is the smallest market in the nhl, because in my mind it is.

 

Also, I want to point out something that has plauged me for a while now. Would it be smart for Montreal and Toronto to build arenas that could house 30,000.

[static70]

I was just pondering this exact question. The only city that could give Buffalo a run for it's money in the small market debate id Raliegh. So can anybody confirm that Buffalo is the smallest market in the nhl, because in my mind it is.

 

Also, I want to point out something that has plauged me for a while now. Would it be smart for Montreal and Toronto to build arenas that could house 30,000.

The Oilers I believe are a smaller market.

As for the Arena's, you won't see any major projects like that for atleast 5 years. But when the time comes, ya, I wouldn't say so much Montreal, but Toronto, Detroit and Denver I can see building Super Arena's for professional hockey.

[rbochan]

Nashville? Phoenix? Florida? Tampa Bay? Columbus?

[Eleven]

Nashville? Phoenix? Florida? Tampa Bay? Columbus?

 

Depends on "market." If that includes "appetite for hockey," well, Buffalo might just be bigger than LA (now that Anaheim has decided--humorously--that it exists independently of LA). But otherwise, most if not all of those are bigger than Buffalo. But they're not hockey cities.

[Stoner]

Depends on "market." If that includes "appetite for hockey," well, Buffalo might just be bigger than LA (now that Anaheim has decided--humorously--that it exists independently of LA). But otherwise, most if not all of those are bigger than Buffalo. But they're not hockey cities.

 

This is a great point. New Delhi is a huge market, but I wouldn't open up a Philly Cheesesteak joint there.

[Eleven]

This is a great point. New Delhi is a huge market, but I wouldn't open up a Philly Cheesesteak joint there.

 

But would you open a new deli?

[Stoner]

But would you open a new deli?

 

I had a feeling that was coming!

[Ohiofan]

In my experience, Ohio is not much of a hockey state...but I would say Columbus is a hockey city. They love that team down there and they do a good job of selling tickets. And Columbus is bigger than you think...bigger than Cleveland, definitely bigger than Buffalo.

[SabresFan526]

I, personally, tend to associate market size by either population or economic prosperity which to a great extent is a function of population. Using either of those definitions Buffalo should easily be the smallest market in the NHL and the NFL as well. I do not consider Phoenix, Nashville, Columbus, or Miami/Fort Lauderdale to be small markets at all. They are just bad markets not small markets and I think Columbus is actually a pretty decent market. Bottom line and I truly believe this is that bad hockey doesn't sell. Frankly bad sports teams don't sell period. How many people were showing up to Sabres games in 2002-2004? Sure much of the team's failure was due to the Rigases being crooks and their budget getting eliminated but if the product on the ice was good I'm sure people would have come to the games. In general those are not small markets but bad teams that result in poor revenues. Growing up in Texas, I've seen how effective hockey can be in non traditional markets and how fielding a consistently good team can drive revenues.

[Eleven]

I, personally, tend to associate market size by either population or economic prosperity which to a great extent is a function of population. Using either of those definitions Buffalo should easily be the smallest market in the NHL and the NFL as well. I do not consider Phoenix, Nashville, Columbus, or Miami/Fort Lauderdale to be small markets at all. They are just bad markets not small markets and I think Columbus is actually a pretty decent market. Bottom line and I truly believe this is that bad hockey doesn't sell. Frankly bad sports teams don't sell period. How many people were showing up to Sabres games in 2002-2004? Sure much of the team's failure was due to the Rigases being crooks and their budget getting eliminated but if the product on the ice was good I'm sure people would have come to the games. In general those are not small markets but bad teams that result in poor revenues. Growing up in Texas, I've seen how effective hockey can be in non traditional markets and how fielding a consistently good team can drive revenues.

 

By population, Edmonton is smaller than Buffalo (metro area, not city limits; we all know Buffalo is a doughnut), and Ottawa is damned close.

 

Ohiofan, I know Columbus is the largest city in Ohio, and I'll have to trust you as to whether it has as many hockey fans as does Buffalo. I suspect, though, that even with the size advantage and enthusiasm of Columbus, Buffalo has the bigger hockey market.

 

Doesn't Buffalo routinely shred most other US markets in hockey TV ratings?

[JohnRobertEichel]

Going by the simple metric of population size for each city's defined metropolitan area (as defined during census taking), Buffalo ranks 27th among the 30 NHL markets:

 

1-3. New York City

4-5. Los Angeles

6. Chicago

7. Dallas

8. Philadelphia

9. Miami

10. Atlanta

11. Washington, D.C.

12. Toronto

13. Boston

14. Detroit

15. Phoenix

16. Montreal

17. Minneapolis

18. St. Louis

19. Tampa

20. Denver

21. Pittsburgh

22. Vancouver

23. San Jose

24. Columbus

25. Nashville

26. Ottawa

27. Buffalo

28. Raleigh

29. Calgary

30. Edmonton

 

Note that this ranking doesn't incorporate nearby metro areas that are considered part of another city's NHL territory...for example, San Francisco for San Jose, Baltimore for D.C., Cleveland for Columbus, Memphis for Nashville, Charlotte for Raleigh, Rochester for Buffalo, etc...

[Ted's Hot Dogs]

This is a little wrong..how are they going to put Toronto 12th when the city is just as big as chicago

[static70]

This is a little wrong..how are they going to put Toronto 12th when the city is just as big as chicago

Very simple, population wise, Chicago is a monster compared to Toronto. Not even close. Land wise, Chicago is 7x as large (including all subarbs). Population wise, Chicago is over 1.5 million more (including all subarbs).

Identity wise, hockey or otherwise, Chicago smokes Toronto.

 

In other words, no matter what Toronto thinks it has, when it comes to a New York, Chicago or Detroit, there are a variable of instances that lead up to Toronto falling in the ranks, Canadian or not.

[SabresFan526]

Going by the simple metric of population size for each city's defined metropolitan area (as defined during census taking), Buffalo ranks 27th among the 30 NHL markets:

 

1-3. New York City

4-5. Los Angeles

6. Chicago

7. Dallas

8. Philadelphia

9. Miami

10. Atlanta

11. Washington, D.C.

12. Toronto

13. Boston

14. Detroit

15. Phoenix

16. Montreal

17. Minneapolis

18. St. Louis

19. Tampa

20. Denver

21. Pittsburgh

22. Vancouver

23. San Jose

24. Columbus

25. Nashville

26. Ottawa

27. Buffalo

28. Raleigh

29. Calgary

30. Edmonton

 

Note that this ranking doesn't incorporate nearby metro areas that are considered part of another city's NHL territory...for example, San Francisco for San Jose, Baltimore for D.C., Cleveland for Columbus, Memphis for Nashville, Charlotte for Raleigh, Rochester for Buffalo, etc...

You know what's shocking to me is Detroit is 14th. I'm shocked they are even that high. People are leaving Detroit in droves. There are virtually no jobs left and you can buy a house for dirt cheap. I imagine Detroit is going to continue to fall further and further down the list over the next few years. I would not be surprised if one day within the very near future we are talking about Detroit as a small market team.

[Ted's Hot Dogs]

Very simple, population wise, Chicago is a monster compared to Toronto. Not even close. Land wise, Chicago is 7x as large (including all subarbs). Population wise, Chicago is over 1.5 million more (including all subarbs).

Identity wise, hockey or otherwise, Chicago smokes Toronto.

 

In other words, no matter what Toronto thinks it has, when it comes to a New York, Chicago or Detroit, there are a variable of instances that lead up to Toronto falling in the ranks, Canadian or not.

 

Ok there is no way Miami,Dallas,Atlanta, Philadelphia, are bigger than toronto

[deluca67]

By population, Edmonton is smaller than Buffalo (metro area, not city limits; we all know Buffalo is a doughnut), and Ottawa is damned close.

 

Ohiofan, I know Columbus is the largest city in Ohio, and I'll have to trust you as to whether it has as many hockey fans as does Buffalo. I suspect, though, that even with the size advantage and enthusiasm of Columbus, Buffalo has the bigger hockey market.

 

Doesn't Buffalo routinely shred most other US markets in hockey TV ratings?

I would love to see numbers on this. Home many viewers do the Sabres get for each telecast on MSG and VS? And where does it rank on average against other teams. That and actual attendance should be what matters. The NHL needs to concentrate on the fans it does have and not as much about fans they don't.

[JohnRobertEichel]

This is a little wrong..how are they going to put Toronto 12th when the city is just as big as chicago

 

The ranking I posted was based on the most recent data from both the U.S. Census Bureau and the Canada Census, so it's certainly possible that the two countries define their metropolitan area borders differently?

 

Also bear in mind that many Golden Horseshoe cities like Hamilton, Kitchener, St. Catharines, etc. are not officially considered part of Toronto's metropolitan area.

 

One other thing: you might be confusing city size with metropolitan size, where the latter category makes Chicago definitively the third largest city in the U.S. and nearly twice as big as Toronto.

[Claude_Verret]

I'm almost certain that Raleigh would now be ahead of Buffalo, this is one of the fastest growing metro areas in the nation. However, as others have stated, a hockey town this is not.

[SwampD]

I would love to see numbers on this. Home many viewers do the Sabres get for each telecast on MSG and VS? And where does it rank on average against other teams. That and actual attendance should be what matters. The NHL needs to concentrate on the fans it does have and not as much about fans they don't.

Here are some fun facts (I've looked them up over last couple of years, so I won't be providing links).

 

- During the last three SCFs, Buffalo was ranked third in viewership, only behind the two cities that were in it.

 

- Buffalo had the highest viewership during that least the last three All Star games.

 

- (Now this is good one and continues to blow my mind) During the playoff series with the Rangers, Buffalo had more televisions tuned to the game than New York had viewers.

 

 

Some other thoughts. In the city of Windsor, Ont. (you know that little Canadian town on the other side from Detroit, the one that actually has the same population as Buffalo) the split between Leafs/Wings fans is said to be about 60/40. There are probably more Wings fans in Windsor than there are Canes fans in NC ;) . It just makes me wonder why the Canadian support is ALWAYS mentioned when taling about Buffalo but rarely when talking about Detroit. I bet it was the Canadian fans that ketp that team afloat during the lean years.

[cdexchange]

- (Now this is good one and continues to blow my mind) During the playoff series with the Rangers, Buffalo had more televisions tuned to the game than New York had viewers.

 

 

 

That's just awesome... :thumbsup:

[TheChimp]

Classic case of market envy if you ask me.

[Eleven]

Classic case of market envy if you ask me.

 

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