Vanek for Kovalchuk?

[biodork]

Any team looking to deal a difference maker to the Sabres is going to start and end their negotiations with Tyler Myers. The Sabres are dealing from tremendous weakness. They are 20th in goals per game and 19th in power play. Other teams knows there is pressure not only to make the playoffs but to also not waste probably the best non-Hasek season by a Buffalo Sabres goalie ever.

 

 

Great point. When this team is playing like they did Wed. against the Caps, they are a blast to watch and I'd put odds on them against any other team in the NHL. Other nights they remind me more of the Panthers when Luongo was still playing there -- fantastic goalie effort wasted by a team that couldn't score. Will the real Buffalo Sabres please stand up?

[nfreeman]

nfreeman, Lindy is a good coach, this is true, but he's a good coach on the defensive side of the game itself.

Although playing defense is a very important aspect of the game, especially for the forwards, scoring goals wins you championships. I don't know, I don't see Lindy winning a Cup with his style.

I mean really, the proof is already in place with 11 years passed already. Nothing against Lindy mind you, the amount of Stanley Cup's brought to Buffalo under his tenure speaks for itself really.

 

You are correct, this is all theory, but, if dumping Ruff brings in Kovalchuck through a trade, Darcy would be wise to make this move. Goal scorers attract more organizational earnings than defensive players and it reignites the flame in the fan base to truly beieve this team is making an effort to win a Championship.

 

Miller is in place, Myers isn't going anywhere, niether is Ennis. Nope, Vanek and 1 of the other top 6 and a D-man and/or prospects/picks should get it done, as long as Kovy signs a longterm contract, probably between 9 and 10 million is my guess for 8 to 10 years.

 

The point is, you can build a team around Kovalchuck, he instantly gives others inflated numbers and value by the virtue of his skill and talent alone, Vanek can't do that I'm afraid.

 

But, its all for not, Ruff is here to stay and Kovalchuck wouldn't dream of playing for him. Darcy is afraid to make a trade of this caliber, why, I honestly don't know, alot of others see the upside.

I agree that Kovalchuk is a terrific player and one who would elevate the rest of the offense. I also would gladly trade Vanek and the other items you mentioned for him. But firing Lindy in the attempt to recruit him would be insane and a completely bush league move.

 

As to Lindy being a defensive coach -- the Sabres were top 5 in the NHL in scoring for 3 seasons in a row. When he has the horses, he's quite capable of coaching an offensive style.

 

You, PAFan and others seem to think that a new coach could get more out of guys like Vanek, Pommer, TC and/or Roy. Fair enough, and certainly possible. IMHO, when I look at those guys, I don't see anyone approaching the level of the elite offensive guys in the league, regardless of who their coach is.

 

Also, stating that Lindy has been here for 11 years and not won a cup without acknowledging that during his tenure, the team has gone bankrupt, was taken over by the NHL, almost moved, and lost 3 captains, a 2-time MVP, an all-star defenseman and several very important supporting players, all through senior management incompetence, is like criticizing Abe Lincoln for not finishing the play without acknowledging Booth's role in the whole affair.

[biodork]

 

Also, stating that Lindy has been here for 11 years and not won a cup without acknowledging that during his tenure, the team has gone bankrupt, was taken over by the NHL, almost moved, and lost 3 captains, a 2-time MVP, an all-star defenseman and several very important supporting players, all through senior management incompetence, is like criticizing Abe Lincoln for not finishing the play without acknowledging Booth's role in the whole affair.

 

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[BetweenThePipes00]

I agree that Kovalchuk is a terrific player and one who would elevate the rest of the offense. I also would gladly trade Vanek and the other items you mentioned for him. But firing Lindy in the attempt to recruit him would be insane and a completely bush league move.

 

As to Lindy being a defensive coach -- the Sabres were top 5 in the NHL in scoring for 3 seasons in a row. When he has the horses, he's quite capable of coaching an offensive style.

 

You, PAFan and others seem to think that a new coach could get more out of guys like Vanek, Pommer, TC and/or Roy. Fair enough, and certainly possible. IMHO, when I look at those guys, I don't see anyone approaching the level of the elite offensive guys in the league, regardless of who their coach is.

 

Also, stating that Lindy has been here for 11 years and not won a cup without acknowledging that during his tenure, the team has gone bankrupt, was taken over by the NHL, almost moved, and lost 3 captains, a 2-time MVP, an all-star defenseman and several very important supporting players, all through senior management incompetence, is like criticizing Abe Lincoln for not finishing the play without acknowledging Booth's role in the whole affair.

 

QFT.

 

I would also add that you don't HAVE to play an offensive style to win the Cup. How did New Jersey ever win a Stanley Cup? How did Dallas win the Stanley Cup? Anaheim scored plenty of goals but their style was not about offense, it was about defense and playing physical. And what happened to the 2006-07 Sabres? Or the Ottawa team that beat them? Plenty of offense there. The league's leading scorer has won the Stanley Cup in the same year, what, ONCE, I believe? It's not a magic bullet to win a Stanley Cup.

 

Perhaps a team can be built around a guy like Kovalchuk, but right now all we know is he can score a lot of goals on a bad team. You can't deny, Lindy or no Lindy, there is a dynamic in the Sabres room that works from Miller on out ... that is the organization's philosophy when building a team (not just Lindy's) and it has become Miller's team. How does Kovy deal with that? Would he even care? Lindy is going to be gone at some point either way, but if you are handing Kovy an 8-10 year deal, Miller and Kovy have to be the highest paid players and leaders in the same room ... would they be on the same page? Is Kovy ANY kind of leader at all? I have no idea, but for $9 million one could argue you don't want a passenger who wants to fade into the background. Nor do you want someone who is not on the same page as Miller. You are hitching your wagon to this guy for the better part of a decade, and his huge cap hit could affect your ability to keep Myers ... are you SURE this is the guy you want to be your franchise player along with Miller?

 

Just playing devil's advocate, there is a lot more to a deal like this than "we need more offense."

[static70]

Every organization goes through some type of rebuilding period and I fully recognize the Buffalo Sabres are no different. The organization has had its moments of down sides, I do concede this. And you are correct, when the horses are in the stable Lindy does use them, however, when Lindy becomes the epicenter of reason as to why a truly gifted player will not come here it is up to the owner to look at the bottom line for the team.

 

Tommy G as an owner may or may not be involved in any decisions by management, but at the end of the day, Kovalchuck is a no brainer for any team owner to seriously look at. As stated, he enhances the fiscal bottom line. That in conjuction with the ability to elevate this team to almost an ensured top 3 contender this season and potentially beyond is a very handsome enticement.

 

Would I have Ruff fired to enhance the organization fiscally and attempt to give credibility to the notion that the organizaiton made the move to attempt to bring a Championship to Buffalo? As a business owner myself, you bet your bippy I would. If its Ruff's presence that is a portion of or the primary reasoning for talent like this not coming here, well, as a business owner I have to take that into consideration.

 

But, as was stated previously, Ruff isn't going anywhere and with the team currently showing a decent record, there is no reason to abandon ship just yet. If the team were to continue to show its inability to be consistent on scoring through the month of Jan. then ya, as an owner, I would demand the move. Miller is in prime form, the team has vastly improved their defensive corp, It would just be good business sense and also, as previously stated, increases the bottom line.

 

Plus, I think the fan base wouldn't mind loosing Ruff if (a really big if I know) the coach brought into be his replacement finds instant success. This is where I think we could potentially run into troubled waters.

[LabattBlue]

You're both right. Good call.

 

 

I'd gladly give up Vanek plus our #1 next year for Kovy with an extension.

If Kovalchuk agreed to a 10 year deal a month prior to being traded, do you really believe that Vanek and a #1(chances are it would be somewhere between the 10th and 20th picks) would be anywhere close to what Atlanta would be looking for?

[BetweenThePipes00]

If Kovalchuk agreed to a 10 year deal a month prior to being traded, do you really believe that Vanek and a #1(chances are it would be somewhere between the 10th and 20th picks) would be anywhere close to what Atlanta would be looking for?

 

 

No, the whole thing is based on the ability to sign him AFTER the trade ...

[nfreeman]

If Kovalchuk agreed to a 10 year deal a month prior to being traded, do you really believe that Vanek and a #1(chances are it would be somewhere between the 10th and 20th picks) would be anywhere close to what Atlanta would be looking for?

No -- that wouldn't nearly be enough. I was just thinking that if Kovy told Atlanta there was NFW he was extending with them, but that in order to help Atlanta's ability to trade him, he would agree to an extension with the other team as part of the trade (which effectively gives him an approval right over the trade), Vanek and a #1 (and probably a good prospect -- maybe Enroth or Kassian) might get it done. Vanek is after all a 2-time 40-goal scorer.

[Vanek Nation]

If you wanted to get kovi and and an extension, vanek, myers, connolly, and 4 1sts round pick would be goin the other way... hes a top 5 talent in the nhl. An organization can go for 50 years without getting a talent like him.

[BetweenThePipes00]

If you wanted to get kovi and and an extension, vanek, myers, connolly, and 4 1sts round pick would be goin the other way... hes a top 5 talent in the nhl. An organization can go for 50 years without getting a talent like him.

 

 

The rest of that team must suck way more than I thought if that is the case.

[Stoner]

QFT.

 

I would also add that you don't HAVE to play an offensive style to win the Cup. How did New Jersey ever win a Stanley Cup? How did Dallas win the Stanley Cup? Anaheim scored plenty of goals but their style was not about offense, it was about defense and playing physical. And what happened to the 2006-07 Sabres? Or the Ottawa team that beat them? Plenty of offense there. The league's leading scorer has won the Stanley Cup in the same year, what, ONCE, I believe? It's not a magic bullet to win a Stanley Cup.

 

Perhaps a team can be built around a guy like Kovalchuk, but right now all we know is he can score a lot of goals on a bad team. You can't deny, Lindy or no Lindy, there is a dynamic in the Sabres room that works from Miller on out ... that is the organization's philosophy when building a team (not just Lindy's) and it has become Miller's team. How does Kovy deal with that? Would he even care? Lindy is going to be gone at some point either way, but if you are handing Kovy an 8-10 year deal, Miller and Kovy have to be the highest paid players and leaders in the same room ... would they be on the same page? Is Kovy ANY kind of leader at all? I have no idea, but for $9 million one could argue you don't want a passenger who wants to fade into the background. Nor do you want someone who is not on the same page as Miller. You are hitching your wagon to this guy for the better part of a decade, and his huge cap hit could affect your ability to keep Myers ... are you SURE this is the guy you want to be your franchise player along with Miller?

 

Just playing devil's advocate, there is a lot more to a deal like this than "we need more offense."

 

Great point about The Miller Factor. After the Devil game, Ryan said the Devils have built their sytem around Brodeur's style for a long time and this is what every goalie wants. He has said the Sabres have been trying for three years to do the same -- build around his style -- and are perhaps finally getting it right. Ryan has said a few times this year the system allows him to make reads and not worry about anything else. So I wonder how a Kovalchuk, a different coach and a different style would make a Miller feel.

[Calvin]

Great point about The Miller Factor. After the Devil game, Ryan said the Devils have built their sytem around Brodeur's style for a long time and this is what every goalie wants. He has said the Sabres have been trying for three years to do the same -- build around his style -- and are perhaps finally getting it right. Ryan has said a few times this year the system allows him to make reads and not worry about anything else. So I wonder how a Kovalchuk, a different coach and a different style would make a Miller feel.

Miller: "Oh crap, Kovy's on ice? Here comes another odd man rush.."

[LabattBlue]

No, the whole thing is based on the ability to sign him AFTER the trade ...

My point is that if he is signed to a contract prior to being traded or signed to a contract after being traded with conditional picks/prospects coming back, it's a kings ransom going to Atlanta either way.

[static70]

Miller: "Oh crap, Kovy's on ice? Here comes another odd man rush.."

Miller faced Ovie 1 on 1 due to Myers making a huge mistake. Other team members giving the puck away have also put Miller in compromising positions already this season, to many to list here.

Its more like he would be saying this:

 

Miller:"Thank god kovy's on the ice, now the play will go down to the other end"!

[BetweenThePipes00]

Miller faced Ovie 1 on 1 due to Myers making a huge mistake. Other team members giving the puck away have also put Miller in compromising positions already this season, to many to list here.

Its more like he would be saying this:

 

Miller:"Thank god kovy's on the ice, now the play will go down to the other end"!

 

No matter how many goals he has scored he is an unknown as THE GUY on a good team, let alone a Cup contender, which you made very clear is your only goal. So far, he has done nothing but score a lot of goals with no pressure on him on a team where he does whatever he wants ... fire Lindy all you want but ANY coach capable of winning a Cup is going to ask him to buy into some sort of system and it will require playing at both ends.

[static70]

No matter how many goals he has scored he is an unknown as THE GUY on a good team, let alone a Cup contender, which you made very clear is your only goal. So far, he has done nothing but score a lot of goals with no pressure on him on a team where he does whatever he wants ... fire Lindy all you want but ANY coach capable of winning a Cup is going to ask him to buy into some sort of system and it will require playing at both ends.

Yes BetweenThePipes00 I agree, he is a -4 right now and is offensive minded, not defensive. But, he currently has 16 goals, more than double any current Sabre and 28 points in only 23 games. Ya, I like those numbers a whole lot as a "business owner" in the NHL. Lets not forget, all 6 of our top forwards just 3 games ago were all in the negative in the +/- department.

As far as my goal, its not to be a contender, but to actually win the Cup, I, like many fans, don't follow the team to watch them fall short. Many fans, a good majority, actually almost all of them, follow the team in anticipation of them winning the Cup. Thats what makes it worth while to watch them, Hope.

As far as no pressure on him, well, looks to me like he's having fun playing a game he loves and very successfully I might add. Not to mention 5 GWG's, sounds to me like a go to guy. Haven't had one of those here in Buf since Drury left. Just an observation.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Yes BetweenThePipes00 I agree, he is a -4 right now and is offensive minded, not defensive. But, he currently has 16 goals, more than double any current Sabre and 28 points in only 23 games. Ya, I like those numbers a whole lot as a "business owner" in the NHL. Lets not forget, all 6 of our top forwards just 3 games ago were all in the negative in the +/- department.

As far as my goal, its not to be a contender, but to actually win the Cup, I, like many fans, don't follow the team to watch them fall short. Many fans, a good majority, actually almost all of them, follow the team in anticipation of them winning the Cup. Thats what makes it worth while to watch them, Hope.

As far as no pressure on him, well, looks to me like he's having fun playing a game he loves and very successfully I might add. Not to mention 5 GWG's, sounds to me like a go to guy. Haven't had one of those here in Buf since Drury left. Just an observation.

 

And again, he's never won a playoff GAME. Not saying "absolutely not!" because I would not mind adding a talent LIKE him to the team ... but you are talking about firing the longest-tenured coach in the league (who would get another job in 30 seconds, by the way) and hitching your wagon to this guy for a DECADE with a contract that is out of line with the way the team is built ... you are basically blowing it all up and starting over and hoping this guy is not Alexei Yashin (look at their careers ... they are not that different so far).

 

I am just not sold on Kovalchuk as THE guy that you win a Cup with. But I do like the idea of finding that guy.

[nfreeman]

Yes BetweenThePipes00 I agree, he is a -4 right now and is offensive minded, not defensive. But, he currently has 16 goals, more than double any current Sabre and 28 points in only 23 games. Ya, I like those numbers a whole lot as a "business owner" in the NHL. Lets not forget, all 6 of our top forwards just 3 games ago were all in the negative in the +/- department.

As far as my goal, its not to be a contender, but to actually win the Cup, I, like many fans, don't follow the team to watch them fall short. Many fans, a good majority, actually almost all of them, follow the team in anticipation of them winning the Cup. Thats what makes it worth while to watch them, Hope.

As far as no pressure on him, well, looks to me like he's having fun playing a game he loves and very successfully I might add. Not to mention 5 GWG's, sounds to me like a go to guy. Haven't had one of those here in Buf since Drury left. Just an observation.

I think everyone likes Kovy and would give up quite a bit to get him. But firing the coach and/or paying $9MM x 9 years or thereabouts? When that's the price, it's pretty reasonable to be concerned about the zero career playoff wins and the questionable commitment to backchecking.

 

Having said that (which I cannot say or write ever again without thinking of Curb Your Enthusiasm), I will also say that if the Sabres announced a trade of Vanek, any of their D except Myers and a #1 for Kovy plus a fat contract extension, I'd be ecstatic.

[spndnchz]

Not that it really says anything but here's an update on Kovalchuk's contract negotiations

 

"Some guys remain with their team throughout the year. we have many options. If we can't sign him a trade isn't the only option. we have other options."

http://thrashers.nhl...vid=DL|ATL|home

[SabresRepublic]

And again, he's never won a playoff GAME. Not saying "absolutely not!" because I would not mind adding a talent LIKE him to the team ... but you are talking about firing the longest-tenured coach in the league (who would get another job in 30 seconds, by the way) and hitching your wagon to this guy for a DECADE with a contract that is out of line with the way the team is built ... you are basically blowing it all up and starting over and hoping this guy is not Alexei Yashin (look at their careers ... they are not that different so far).

 

I am just not sold on Kovalchuk as THE guy that you win a Cup with. But I do like the idea of finding that guy.

 

I agree with you pipes!

 

Kovalchuk is good but he is a premadonna, Haven't the Sabres had experience with guys like that in the past? Bottom line if he goes down - as in major injury - what do you got?

 

Bitching!!! :censored:

 

Sabres last 14 games 10 - 3 - 1 75% & now 5th best in the league & the most balanced scoring of any team in the NHL. Beat that Kovy! (In a seven game series)

 

The previous owners knew & present owners know the tremendous value in LR & DR. They grew the team pre-lockout & now growing it post lockout. The best is yet to come! GO SABRES!!!

[static70]

I think everyone likes Kovy and would give up quite a bit to get him. But firing the coach and/or paying $9MM x 9 years or thereabouts? When that's the price, it's pretty reasonable to be concerned about the zero career playoff wins and the questionable commitment to backchecking.

 

Having said that (which I cannot say or write ever again without thinking of Curb Your Enthusiasm), I will also say that if the Sabres announced a trade of Vanek, any of their D except Myers and a #1 for Kovy plus a fat contract extension, I'd be ecstatic.

I posted this to see what all of you thought on it. Many good counter-points from many different angles nfreeman. I started to wonder what other potential talent good be brought in with a lower price tag. I noticed people tended to discount alot of possible trades out of loyalty to players, if we put that aside for a moment, take a look at the other teams rosters, which players do you think could be had to help bring a little stability to our top 2 lines? Also, what would we potentially be looking at giving up to get it in your mind?

 

People are mentioning Sharp from Chicago, but there are other teams that we could deal with. My preferrence is to bring in 1 (possibly 2) players to add stability and a bump in chemistry based on current skills on those lines. But I also look inside the organization, even though he is 20 (pretty young yet) I did enjoy Ennis and his energy and skills in the 1 game he played in this season. Also, Gerbe may be 1 to contribute as well, although I must confess, his size does concern me, from an injury standpoint. I was saying this before he got injured and although he did get injured I saw alot of fire in his play as well. What are your thoughts on our younger talents?

 

Thanks.

[rbochan]

After what he said about Ruff in the press, does anyone seriously think he'd sign with Buffalo?

[static70]

I agree with you pipes!

 

Kovalchuk is good but he is a premadonna, Haven't the Sabres had experience with guys like that in the past? Bottom line if he goes down - as in major injury - what do you got?

 

Bitching!!! :censored:

 

Sabres last 14 games 10 - 3 - 1 75% & now 5th best in the league & the most balanced scoring of any team in the NHL. Beat that Kovy! (In a seven game series)

 

The previous owners knew & present owners know the tremendous value in LR & DR. They grew the team pre-lockout & now growing it post lockout. The best is yet to come! GO SABRES!!!

I would never make this statement about managements ability to "grow" this team internally. If you look at all of the draft picks that turned out to be busts, were not talking about 2nd or 3rd rounders here, were talking 1st round draft picks. The Buffalo Sabres have the absolute worst record in that regard. Thomas Vanek and Tyler Myers are the only 2 1st round picks worth a dam on this team at this time. Stafford may get better with the right linemates. That says something about management.

I mean, lets be realistic here, Paille, Zagrapan, Novotny, Kirukov, Heisten, Kalinin, Noronen. These picks don't exactly inspire success stories. Lets look at who has been able to contribute, Vanek, Stafford, Myers.

Ennis, Persson and Kassian in the pipeline, no way to be sure they will contribute at the level expected until they get up with the big club fulltime.

 

So I would think looking at FA talent and possible trade situations are not only warranted, but actually have merit based on a multitude of variables on this team. If not Kovalchuck, then what player/players are out there that may add significant upsides to help this team reach its maximum potential?

[static70]

After what he said about Ruff in the press, does anyone seriously think he'd sign with Buffalo?

Money talks, no matter who says what about who. The right offer and he's here, plain and simple. This may be a passion for us fans, its a lively hood for the players and a business for the owners. Lets not loose sight of this. Many deals have been made where players went to other teams for the right price.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

Let Vanek get healthy and let him do what he can do.