inkman Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 There has been plenty of mention of the Sabres new style of play or their system if you will. I'd like to discuss the technical aspects, and obviously the success they are having. From everything I've heard, the system largely depends on puck possession. I'm not exactly a student of the game, so how do the Sabres go about possessing the puck more than they have in the past. One would think puck possession would always be a desired attribute in hockey.
Calvin Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 There has been plenty of mention of the Sabres new style of play or their system if you will. I'd like to discuss the technical aspects, and obviously the success they are having. From everything I've heard, the system largely depends on puck possession. I'm not exactly a student of the game, so how do the Sabres go about possessing the puck more than they have in the past. One would think puck possession would always be a desired attribute in hockey. Not when you don't have the skill to hold and distribute it. From my limited understanding (i never played ice hockey) it's radically different from dump-and-chase, where you try to gain possession of the other teams blue line by whacking the puck deep and hoping it cycles back to the point by the time the slower guys on the rush can get up to it. This system breaks out en masse, holds it with short, tape-to-tape passes.. and falls back in a group too, hence the excellent forechecking and backchecking we're seeing.
inkman Posted October 14, 2009 Author Report Posted October 14, 2009 From my limited understanding (i never played ice hockey) it's radically different from dump-and-chase... I don't recall the Sabres relying on dumping-and-chasing all that much last year. Every team does it, and the Sabres did on occasion last night. One sytle I've not noticed this year is the D man shooting the puck up along the boards with a forward waiting at the red line to tip it while another forward was skating toward the offensive zone looking to gain possesion of the puck. I hated that strategy and glad it's gone. It sucked and the Sabres easily lost possession of the puck often.
North Buffalo Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 Not when you don't have the skill to hold and distribute it. From my limited understanding (i never played ice hockey) it's radically different from dump-and-chase, where you try to gain possession of the other teams blue line by whacking the puck deep and hoping it cycles back to the point by the time the slower guys on the rush can get up to it. This system breaks out en masse, holds it with short, tape-to-tape passes.. and falls back in a group too, hence the excellent forechecking and backchecking we're seeing. It is a little more methodical than above. It takes a willingness to back out and use your defensemen for passing, kinda like soccer in that you can always play the puck back to your midfielders.... The deal is that you have to have defensemen with the skill to handle the puck... Butler and Meyers are good at it, Rivet is as well and finally Tallinder is showing signs of his former self mentoring Meyers. All can handle the puck well in support of the forwards. Montador seems decent at it and Lydman minus the turnovers is pretty decent too. The rushes up ice by the D really help because it opens up ice for the forwards to pick up any loose pucks and keep control.
Calvin Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 It is a little more methodical than above. It takes a willingness to back out and use your defensemen for passing, kinda like soccer in that you can always play the puck back to your midfielders.... The deal is that you have to have defensemen with the skill to handle the puck... Butler and Meyers are good at it, Rivet is as well and finally Tallinder is showing signs of his former self mentoring Meyers. All can handle the puck well in support of the forwards. Montador seems decent at it and Lydman minus the turnovers is pretty decent too. The rushes up ice by the D really help because it opens up ice for the forwards to pick up any loose pucks and keep control. Aha! That does make sense, thanks for the soccer reference, I get it now. It is probably trickier in hockey though with the blue line and offside rule, which is quite different from the soccer offside rule.
Eleven Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 I don't recall the Sabres relying on dumping-and-chasing all that much last year. Every team does it, and the Sabres did on occasion last night. One sytle I've not noticed this year is the D man shooting the puck up along the boards with a forward waiting at the red line to tip it while another forward was skating toward the offensive zone looking to gain possesion of the puck. I hated that strategy and glad it's gone. It sucked and the Sabres easily lost possession of the puck often. They definitely used that move at least once last night, in the third period, and it worked well. The puck was tipped high and deep, and it took the Detroit defenseman by surprise. But few things don't work well when a team is up by 5 goals, and in general, I don't like it much, either. As you say, it is way too easily dealt with on most occasions. The team should save the "tip-dump" for shift changes.
North Buffalo Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 Aha! That does make sense, thanks for the soccer reference, I get it now. It is probably trickier in hockey though with the blue line and offside rule, which is quite different from the soccer offside rule. True and it is played a lot faster, but the same basic principals apply. Also, it helps to have skilled puck hawks like Roy, Connolly and Kennedy as well as experienced guys like Grier to control things. I also notice Pommer playing more of a puck possession game. Finally when you lose control pressure everyone with relentlessness until you get it back and that is the other side of it. When you don't have the puck, be relentless till you get it back and the Sabres with Ellis, Kaleta, Grier, Kennedy, Gaustad, Pommer et al did that all night and it was enjoying to watch.
North Buffalo Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 They definitely used that move at least once last night, in the third period, and it worked well. The puck was tipped high and deep, and it took the Detroit defenseman by surprise. But few things don't work well when a team is up by 5 goals, and in general, I don't like it much, either. As you say, it is way too easily dealt with on most occasions. The team should save the "tip-dump" for shift changes. Even that was a pass though and less of a dump and chase. Vanek was open and the high flip was to get it out to him. Dump and chase is usually in the other teams corner.
Calvin Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 True and it is played a lot faster, but the same basic principals apply. Also, it helps to have skilled puck hawks like Roy, Connolly and Kennedy as well as experienced guys like Grier to control things. I also notice Pommer playing more of a puck possession game. Finally when you lose control pressure everyone with relentlessness until you get it back and that is the other side of it. When you don't have the puck, be relentless till you get it back and the Sabres with Ellis, Kaleta, Grier, Kennedy, Gaustad, Pommer et al did that all night and it was enjoying to watch. That relentless pressure really worked yesterday, they coughed up the puck a bunch of times, leading to a couple of goals as well - even their veterans were losing the puck!
LabattBlue Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 I'm not going to pretend that I know what they are doing differently this year from past years. For all I know, they are playing the same system. I hear all the same things that I have heard in the past...puck possession, puck pursuit, close gaps between the forwards and defense, etc.. This I do know... 1. The Sabres are outplaying the opposition the majority of the time in each game so far. 2. They are limiting the number of odd man rushes. 3. The amount of bad play in their own zone where they can't get the puck out for what seems to be minutes at a time isn't happening. 4. Miller has been very good in goal. Is this a new system or guys actually doing now, what the coaches have asked them to do in the past?
Stoner Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 Lindy preached puck pressure last season. As you say ink, possessing the puck has always been a no-brainer. I could swear at the beginning of the season we heard that the Sabres were going to play a dump and chase game. Bottom line -- you're not going to get a good answer, just a bunch of "ink blot" interpretations of what they're doing. It's probably more fine-tuning of things done in the past than a radical change, and Lindy probably isn't going to give us all a "Hockey for Dummies" primer on what those points are. Was it simply outworking the Wings? I don't buy that either. Whatever it is -- keep doing it. 6-2 wins are nice. But hockey is funny. With the game 1-1, a bounce the wrong way, and they lose the game. All of a sudden, the system sucks.
Stoner Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 I'm not going to pretend that I know what they are doing differently this year from past years. For all I know, they are playing the same system. I hear all the same things that I have heard in the past...puck possession, puck pursuit, close gaps between the forwards and defense, etc.. This I do know... 1. The Sabres are outplaying the opposition the majority of the time in each game so far. 2. They are limiting the number of odd man rushes. 3. The amount of bad play in their own zone where they can't get the puck out for what seems to be minutes at a time isn't happening. 4. Miller has been very good in goal. Is this a new system or guys actually doing now, what the coaches have asked them to do in the past? :thumbsup:
end the curse Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 The Sabres are rotating the defense up into the neutral zone more aggressively to gain an advantage at the point of attack, allowing us to pick off more passes, block rushes before they start, and help to outnumber the opposition for loose pucks and gain greater possession time in the offensive zone. To prevent odd-man rushes, the forwards are conscious about filling in any defensive gaps when the d-men carry the puck up ice and into the opponent's zone.
SwampD Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 Things I have noticed- -All Dmen (not just Myers) have been jumping into the play on offense whenever an opportunity arises. -All Omen (not Damien Thorne) are very aware of this and are making sure to cover for them when they go in. It seems that this shortens the time it takes for the play to get to the opposing net and also reduces odd man rushes. EDIT:Sorry ETC, I just read your post and realized you basically said the same thing.
... Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 Is this a new system or guys actually doing now, what the coaches have asked them to do in the past? Paul Hamilton was asked the same question yesterday and I agree with his response. Hamilton said that a lot of it has to do with the team buying into the system - the same basic concepts LR was preaching last year, but with some changes. So, my guess is the system has changed based on LR realizing from the last two seasons what his team can and can not do, plus added tweaks from his Team Canada and Olympic experiences. But, the system probably hasn't changed as much as the team is finally willing to listen and do what he says - because this team looks a lot like the team from three or four seasons ago. My theory (today, at least) is that the young guys then, Vanek, Roy, et al, weren't the ones who bought into the system as the vets did - so they were allowed to hot dog while the vets played the system and gave the young guys room to screw off. Hence, perhaps, the reason it took so long for the formerly young guys to buy into the system after the old vets left or were dumped - they didn't see the value of the system because they thought their antics back then led to the wins, not the system. This would justify not only DR, LR saying things like "maturing, young team" and "buy into the system", but Miller, too, who apparently "saw (or still sees) it" more clearly than the other guys did (or do).
Vanek Nation Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 I think Lindy Ruff coaching alongside Mike Babcock for team Canada will turn out to be incredibly advantageous for the Sabres. He picked up this whole system from what Babcock teaches his Redwing players. The reason why so many of the Redwings are great defensive forwards is because of the coaching and system they are put into, not just the skill of guys like datsyuk and zetterberg. Additionally, all their defenseman are integral parts of their offense, as I think we will see this year with Buffalo. Last night was not just a regular win... it was our team playing the same system to detroit as detroit has used to dominate for so long against everybody else in the league. And we showed we can beat it. Vanek Nation.
LabattBlue Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 He picked up this whole system from what Babcock teaches his Redwing players. Unless I missed Lindy stating this, it is nothing but speculation at this point.
North Buffalo Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 I agree with the deal that this is not new, but that everyone is being more responsible defensively. Soupy never was a very good defensemen. Butler and Meyers appear to be able to do both. Chew gum and walk and it is nice to see the forwards getting back as a team.... It is imperative that guys like Stafford, Vanek, Connolly and Mac continue to do so. Roy always has, so has Hecht and the checking line seems to too, but the first and second lines sometimes lunch on getting back and they haven't so far this season.
SouthernSabre Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 Unless I missed Lindy stating this, it is nothing but speculation at this point. Lindy said they virtually use the same system, but he has been able to see things that Babcock does and use it for the Sabres advantage, as well as some of the other Team Canada coaches.
nfreeman Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 Lindy said they virtually use the same system, but he has been able to see things that Babcock does and use it for the Sabres advantage, as well as some of the other Team Canada coaches. I think I've heard Lindy mention tweaks to his system for this year that resulted from his working with the other Olympic coaches. FWIW, in the between-periods interview last night, Roy mentioned the "new system". It was just one quick mention, but I'd be curious to know whether this means that the players feel like there's been a substantial overhaul.
Two or less Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 Early in pre-season i heard Ruff talk about the system and i didn't think much of it. I didn't think the results could be so overwhelming with just a little bit of work and the same players. However, Ruff said for it to work they need to work hard for 60 minutes. And anyone on this board knows, playing 60 minutes each night is very rare for this team. It's one reason why i kept posting that i thought Tim Kennedy would stay up. He's a hard worker, great skater, and plays well on both ends of the ice. From the way Ruff spoke about the system, it seems like Kennedy is a perfect player for it. As long as they win, players will buy into it. Ruff is looking like a genius right now, though.
... Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 I think I've heard Lindy mention tweaks to his system for this year that resulted from his working with the other Olympic coaches. FWIW, in the between-periods interview last night, Roy mentioned the "new system". It was just one quick mention, but I'd be curious to know whether this means that the players feel like there's been a substantial overhaul. Or if it's only a new system to them because their perspective has changed.
North Buffalo Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 Or if it's only a new system to them because their perspective has changed. Ah Sensi... you speak truth with your forked tongue :doh:
SouthernSabre Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 Or if it's only a new system to them because their perspective has changed. They have been relentless chasing down the puck. This has been their problem in the past, they take too many shifts off. So far they have been full bore! In order for us to continue this success, we must continue to play all out for 60 minutes, every night.
spndnchz Posted October 14, 2009 Report Posted October 14, 2009 The "new" system? Just playing the system they were suppose to be playing last year with a few tweeks. They may have figured out that it doesn't take all that much more effort to play a solid minute every 4 or 5 minutes.
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