Who does Balsillie think he is?

[apuszczalowski]

Do you actually believe the dreck you spew? Hamilton not necessarily a good market? I mean, wow...just out of curiosity, are you also a member of the flat earth society? :lol:

have you been to Hamilton before?

 

To quote Jon Stewart "Its the Pittsburgh of Canada". Its a Blue Collar steel town. Places around it like Stoney Creek are where the people with money live, and like I said, people are basing their support on Basillie throwing money around to build a winner, and pricing tickets at an affordable level for working class families, unlike the Leafs.

 

I'm not spewing Dreck, I'm just not blindfolded by Jim and his "Doing it for Canada" BS.

[end the curse]

Calm down? Since when is a little sarcasm cause for a reprimand? Look, if he wants to argue the rights of the league versus the rights of bankruptcy courts to award the frannchise to the highest bidder, well, that's what smarter people than us are about to decide. But, to say that Winnipeg failed because they weren't locally supported is a lie, they failed because the facility wasn't NHL calliber and the league bought the foools gold of the "southern strategy" and relocated the team. Even Bettman indicated he would like to move back there again.

 

Same holds true with Quebec. They had the fans, but not the facility and Bettman wanted to ship teams out of Canada.

 

Do you also want to explain to me how Minnesota is a failed hockey market because they lost the North Stars to the Southern Strategy?

[apuszczalowski]

Please, do share how you think the fact that Balsillie's offering $243 million dollars, the funding of a new arena in a superior market, and a deal to pay off both Glendale and Moyes, the two largest creditors/debtors, is going to be rejected while the NHL offers $100 million less and NO specific plans to pay off the creditors or turn around the fortunes of the organization. In fact, they are promising to add to the debt for another year, which will be in the neighborhood of $50 million.

 

This is really amusing, but in a way it's also a little uncomfortable seeing someone who just doesn't know when it's time to quit come unhinged. Come on, man, save some face...

Can you read?

 

I have explained it multiple times before.

 

First off, MOYES IS NOT A CREDITOR. He is the owner and is trying to do some shady dealing to make him a creditor by saying he "loaned" money to the team just to try and recoup some of his personal loses in the team. If you understand how bankruptcy works, the owners don't usually get a dime back for their loses until all the other actual creditors are paid back. Jims new offer now says it will pay the City of Glendale up to $40-50 million so they can relocate the team. In Jims original bid, he had $104 million going to Moyes. IF the judge rules that Moyes is not a creditor, that means Jims new bid has $139 million (243-104 = 139) going to Glendale and actual creditors. The NHL's bid of $140 has nothing going to Moyes, so $140 million would go to creditors.

 

The NHL's bid also is all about turning around the Phoenix franchise seeing as how the first thing would be them trying to renegotiate the lease for the arena which is the biggest problem right now financially with the team.

 

And you may also want to get some facts straight, JIM IS NOT FUNDING A NEW ARENA IN A SUPERIOR MARKET. He is funding $5 million of the $125-130 million dollars of renovation costs to Copps Colliseum. (Thats less than 5% of the cost, hardly funding the work) The $120-125 million is coming from the Ontario Taxpayers from the government who are hoping to use it as an excuse to try and get some winter games to the hamilton area. Thats a FACT, and not Dreck, but please, keep telling me about how hockey in Hamilton is such a slam dunk money maker, when 26 other millionaires who only stand to make more money out of a Balsillie deal vote it down?

 

If Hamilton is such a great place that is such a superior NHL market cause it has rabid hockey fans, how come a place like Buffalo struggles financially with a team when they also have rabid hockey fans to support their team?

[KK6666]

What Balsillie is or isn't doing in Hamilton after the sale is of no concern to the bankruptcy court.

 

Why would any bankruptcy judge concern himself with what percentage of Hamilton arena renovation Balsillie is going to pay for?

 

It's not relevant.

[apuszczalowski]

What Balsillie is or isn't doing in Hamilton after the sale is of no concern to the bankruptcy court.

 

Why would any bankruptcy judge concern himself with what percentage of Hamilton arena renovation Balsillie is going to pay for?

 

It's not relevant.

That part had nothing to do with the bankruptcy court, ETC just brought it up in defence of Jim saying that he is funding a new arena.

[nfreeman]

Calm down? Since when is a little sarcasm cause for a reprimand? Look, if he wants to argue the rights of the league versus the rights of bankruptcy courts to award the frannchise to the highest bidder, well, that's what smarter people than us are about to decide. But, to say that Winnipeg failed because they weren't locally supported is a lie, they failed because the facility wasn't NHL calliber and the league bought the foools gold of the "southern strategy" and relocated the team. Even Bettman indicated he would like to move back there again.

 

Same holds true with Quebec. They had the fans, but not the facility and Bettman wanted to ship teams out of Canada.

 

Do you also want to explain to me how Minnesota is a failed hockey market because they lost the North Stars to the Southern Strategy?

Settle down is good advice. 11 is just trying to have a reasonable discussion, which is what we do here. The statement about Winnipeg failing isn't "a lie." There is simply no need to accuse anyone of lying. It's obnoxious.

 

You are correct that the Winnipeg facility wasn't NHL caliber -- but they couldn't get a new arena built, because the local economy couldn't support it. The same is true of Quebec. And Bettman didn't say he'd like to move back there -- he said he'd prefer it to Hamilton.

 

FWIW, I think it's a shame that the economics of sports have evolved to the point where the smaller, older buildings were no longer viable -- which among other things resulted in Quebec and Winnipeg losing their teams. That Montreal-Quebec rivalry was awesome. I like HSBC fine, but give me the Aud, the old Boston Garden, the old Montreal Forum, etc., any day.

[end the curse]

I think I see what part of the equation you aren't getting when it comes to bankruptcy law, Apus. You see, it is the debtor, or in this case Moyes, who chooses which bid he wants to accept, the one that will make him most free and clear of debt, i.e. the highest bid. Let's put it this way, if Balsillie's bid is permitted by judge Baum, and indications right now are pointing towards that being a pretty good bet, than there is zero chance, zilch, nada, that the NHL bid will be chosen by Moyes over the $243 million he would get from Balsillie.

 

Simply put, if Judge Baum permits the Balsillie bid to be entered it's over and done, my friend. Your only hope is that the judge weighs the NHL board of governors ban above that of federal bankruptcy laws, because bid vs. bid is no contest.

 

The other problem here is the NHL is attempting to ban the Balsillie bid and at the same time remain the only other bidder. This very well could be ruled a conflict of interest and collusion by the judge, and if not it will be part of a certain anti-trust lawsuit launched by Balsillie soon after the ruling.

 

Anyway, I hope this explanation helped you understand the laws of the case a little bit better, and see that the NHL bid is completely irrelevant now accept as a fallback if Balsillie is disqualified by the league's vote.

[henysgol]

There are a lot of people who would say buying a failed, bankrupt franchise, in a terrible location, for above market value, and relocating it to an area starved for the product and guaranteed to fill every seat in the house, is not exactly an evil plot to destroy civilization.

 

For real. It just makes more sense to let him buy the Coyotes and MOVE THEM. Period. Anyone defending the idea of them staying in Phoenix is just wacky! It drives me nuts how Bettman and his cronies want to keep them there. What is the obsession?

[nfreeman]

I think I see what part of the equation you aren't getting when it comes to bankruptcy law, Apus. You see, it is the debtor, or in this case Moyes, who chooses which bid he wants to accept, the one that will make him most free and clear of debt, i.e. the highest bid.

Wrong. The debtor can favor a bid, but the bankruptcy court has the final say.

[end the curse]

Wrong. The debtor can favor a bid, but the bankruptcy court has the final say.

 

:doh: At the risk of appearing condescending, let me try to make this simple enough even a caveman can do it.

 

PRESUMING Judge Baum GIVES THE GREEN LIGHT TO THE BALSILLIE BID, Moyes WILL choose the Balsillie bid rather than the NHL bid. /discussion

[nfreeman]

:doh: At the risk of appearing condescending, let me try to make this simple enough even a caveman can do it.

 

PRESUMING Judge Baum GIVES THE GREEN LIGHT TO THE BALSILLIE BID, Moyes WILL choose the Balsillie bid rather than the NHL bid. /discussion

You are missing the point. Moyes doesn't get to choose among the bids. The court does. The NHL tried to prevent balsillie from being able to submit a bid. However, even if the court allows balsillie to bid, the court will then evaluate the bids and choose the one it deems best for all the interested parties. This may or may not be the bid with the highest number. Moyes' interests and preferences will be an afterthought relative to the interests of the other interested parties -- the private equity fund who is the largest creditor, the city, the other local vendors and the NHL. This is why balsillie's changing his bid to give the city a large payment was a smart move. But it may or may not be enough, and again, what Moyes wants is neither here nor there.

[Eleven]

You are missing the point. Moyes doesn't get to choose among the bids. The court does. The NHL tried to prevent balsillie from being able to submit a bid. However, even if the court allows balsillie to bid, the court will then evaluate the bids and choose the one it deems best for all the interested parties. This may or may not be the bid with the highest number. Moyes' interests and preferences will be an afterthought relative to the interests of the other interested parties -- the private equity fund who is the largest creditor, the city, the other local vendors and the NHL. This is why balsillie's changing his bid to give the city a large payment was a smart move. But it may or may not be enough, and again, what Moyes wants is neither here nor there.

 

Isn't the bid (which will eventually become part of a liquidation plan) voted upon by impaired creditors?

[nfreeman]

Isn't the bid (which will eventually become part of a liquidation plan) voted upon by impaired creditors?

Each class of creditors (secured, unsecured, etc) votes on whether or not to approve a bid, but it's more of an endorsement than a consent. The judge has the final call. The goal of course is to have as many of the creditors as possible approve, but it's often the case that some have it "crammed down" their throats unwillingly.

[Eleven]

Each class of creditors (secured, unsecured, etc) votes on whether or not to approve a bid, but it's more of an endorsement than a consent. The judge has the final call. The goal of course is to have as many of the creditors as possible approve, but it's often the case that some have it "crammed down" their throats unwillingly.

 

Right. And I'm sure the debtor will set up its classes of creditors so that it can gain votes in favor (usually respected by the court, isn't it?), too. There likely will be more than one class of unsecured creditor, for example.

 

As for whether Balsille has the right to run an NHL franchise without the NHL's assent, though, well, that's not going to be put to a vote.

[korab rules]

You are missing the point. Moyes doesn't get to choose among the bids. The court does. The NHL tried to prevent balsillie from being able to submit a bid. However, even if the court allows balsillie to bid, the court will then evaluate the bids and choose the one it deems best for all the interested parties. This may or may not be the bid with the highest number. Moyes' interests and preferences will be an afterthought relative to the interests of the other interested parties -- the private equity fund who is the largest creditor, the city, the other local vendors and the NHL. This is why balsillie's changing his bid to give the city a large payment was a smart move. But it may or may not be enough, and again, what Moyes wants is neither here nor there.

 

Another issue will be whether the Judge even considers Balsillie's bids with the restrictions he has placed on it. Gets into constitutional issues/contractual issues and who really exercises control over the franchise: the owner or the league. If the Judge determines Balsillie's conditions are beyond the power of the Court to grant, it doesn't matter if the bid is for 250 BILLION dollars, It will just be ignored.

[nfreeman]

Right. And I'm sure the debtor will set up its classes of creditors so that it can gain votes in favor (usually respected by the court, isn't it?), too. There likely will be more than one class of unsecured creditor, for example.

 

As for whether Balsille has the right to run an NHL franchise without the NHL's assent, though, well, that's not going to be put to a vote.

Yes -- Moyes will try to get himself included with the other unsecured creditors; the court will probably not buy this.

[wjag]

Each class of creditors (secured, unsecured, etc) votes on whether or not to approve a bid, but it's more of an endorsement than a consent. The judge has the final call. The goal of course is to have as many of the creditors as possible approve, but it's often the case that some have it "crammed down" their throats unwillingly.

Right you are... see my GM stock for proof..

[spndnchz]

Right you are... see my GM stock for proof..

 

But you were just loaning GM money right? /sarcasm. And sorry.

[end the curse]

In some European countries, Sweden specifically I believe, the bankruptcy auction law is based on creditors selection. In the United States, however, the debtor is the one who chooses from the authorized bids at an auction, and while it is possible that a judge could reject the selection of the debtor if he deems it is grossly negligent of the needs of the creditors, this is very rare and certainly won't apply here for obvious reasons.

 

As some of you have said, the only card left to play by the league is that of the rejection of Balsillie's bid, but even that could fall apart quicly if the judge agrees with Team Balsillie that the NHL bid, coming after banning Balsillie in a vote, was an unlawful conflict of interest designed to devalue the open market value of the franchise against federal collusion laws.

 

Anyway, tomorrow will be a very telling day.

[nfreeman]

In some European countries, Sweden specifically I believe, the bankruptcy auction law is based on creditors selection. In the United States, however, the debtor is the one who chooses from the authorized bids at an auction, and while it is possible that a judge could reject the selection of the debtor if he deems it is grossly negligent of the needs of the creditors, this is very rare and certainly won't apply here for obvious reasons.

 

As some of you have said, the only card left to play by the league is that of the rejection of Balsillie's bid, but even that could fall apart quicly if the judge agrees with Team Balsillie that the NHL bid, coming after banning Balsillie in a vote, was an unlawful conflict of interest designed to devalue the open market value of the franchise against federal collusion laws.

 

Anyway, tomorrow will be a very telling day.

Sorry, but this is just flat wrong, and is frankly of a piece with your assertions that Bettman is facing a lengthy prison term for RICOH violations. Once a company declares bankruptcy, it cedes control of the sale process to the bankruptcy court. The court often appoints a trustee, who is charged with obtaining maximum value for the creditors. The court and/or trustee will certainly consider the arguments of the debtor, but the debtor in no way gets to choose which bid it prefers. The trustee chooses the bid based on the maximum yield to the creditors.

 

Please check your facts before you post, and please do not waste everyone's time with blithe assertions about matters that you are unfamiliar with.

[end the curse]

Sorry, but this is just flat wrong, and is frankly of a piece with your assertions that Bettman is facing a lengthy prison term for RICOH violations. Once a company declares bankruptcy, it cedes control of the sale process to the bankruptcy court. The court often appoints a trustee, who is charged with obtaining maximum value for the creditors. The court and/or trustee will certainly consider the arguments of the debtor, but the debtor in no way gets to choose which bid it prefers. The trustee chooses the bid based on the maximum yield to the creditors.

 

Please check your facts before you post, and please do not waste everyone's time with blithe assertions about matters that you are unfamiliar with.

Please show something besides an opinion when you claim to be posting fact, because it reflects poorly upon your intelligence. In almost all corporate bankruptcy auctions, the debtor organization does usually select the winning bid, and then the court appointed trustee either approves the selection or rejects it. Where in the world are you getting your information besides out of your ass?

 

In fact, just a few weeks ago bankrupt Frontier airlines SPURNED an auction bid by Southwest Airlines and CHOSE Republic Air instead. Here's a link: http://www.mergersunleashed.com/news/-196625-1.html

[nfreeman]

Please show something besides an opinion when you claim to be posting fact, because it reflects poorly upon your intelligence. In almost all corporate bankruptcy auctions, the debtor organization does usually select the winning bid, and then the court appointed trustee either approves the selection or rejects it. Where in the world are you getting your information besides out of your ass?

 

In fact, just a few weeks ago bankrupt Frontier airlines SPURNED an auction bid by Southwest Airlines and CHOSE Republic Air instead. Here's a link: http://www.mergersunleashed.com/news/-196625-1.html

Wrong again. If you don't believe me, look at this. The Frontier situation is not comparable -- Frontier is selling off part of its operations in a reorganization and will continue to operate as a separate airline (and, in any case, the terms of the sale are subject to the approval of the bankruptcy court which will, as I have stated repeatedly, base its determination on the interests of the creditors, not on what Moyes wants).

 

Furthermore, it's been pretty clear all along that the court is running the auction of the Coyotes. See this.

 

These are not matters of opinion. They are facts. There is no criminal action here. No one is going to jail. Moyes doesn't get to choose what he wants. Bankruptcy works in a certain way. Gross negligence has nothing to do with it. The entire situation is far different from how you've described it.

 

I don't know why you keep making authoritative-sounding statements on this topic and I don't know why you keep pretending to know this stuff. What I do know is that your statements on this range from nonsensical all the way to whacked-out. In almost every case, though, they are simply wrong -- not as a matter of opinion, but factually. I am done fencing with you on this topic. (Still more than happy to discuss hockey though as I think your posts there are good.)

[end the curse]

You've lost it...I mean, really lost it. You're mixing up facts and confusing points so much that in the end all that's left to show for it are absurd, disjointed ramblings... completely whacked.

 

I am not going to address your mad, nonsensical rantings because quite frankly they are not sane. You conveniently ignore the direct references and then recreate arguments in your head that you answer in your posts.

 

Wow...scary what lurks on message boards sometimes.

[SwampD]

You've lost it...I mean, really lost it. You're mixing up facts and confusing points so much that in the end all that's left to show for it are absurd, disjointed ramblings... completely whacked.

 

I am not going to address your mad, nonsensical rantings because quite frankly they are not sane. You conveniently ignore the direct references and then recreate arguments in your head that you answer in your posts.

 

Wow...scary what lurks on message boards sometimes.

[...]

You've lost it...I mean, really lost it. You're mixing up facts and confusing points so much that in the end all that's left to show for it are absurd, disjointed ramblings... completely whacked.

 

I am not going to address your mad, nonsensical rantings because quite frankly they are not sane. You conveniently ignore the direct references and then recreate arguments in your head that you answer in your posts.

 

Wow...scary what lurks on message boards sometimes.

 

 

Didn't we just go through this sh*t with someone else? If you are disputing facts, then dispute the facts and provide evidence to back it up. Don't run off at the lip.

 

It's easy, let me show you:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy#United_States

 

"In Chapter 11, the debtor retains ownership and control of its assets and is re-termed a debtor in possession ("DIP"). The debtor in possession runs the day to day operations of the business while creditors and the debtor work with the Bankruptcy Court in order to negotiate and complete a plan. Upon meeting certain requirements (e.g. fairness among creditors, priority of certain creditors) creditors are permitted to vote on the proposed plan. If a plan is confirmed the debtor will continue to operate and pay its debts under the terms of the confirmed plan. If a specified majority of creditors do not vote to confirm a plan, additional requirements may be imposed by the court in order to confirm the plan."

 

Wasn't that easy? Now you know that under Chapter 11, the debtor retains ownership, but the creditors determine the business plan.

 

Here, let me show you more:

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14999927/Phoenix-Coyotes-Bankruptcy-Petition

 

You have to scroll down to section B4 "Consolidated List of Creditors yada yada yada..." to see that when Moyes assigned himself as the first creditor, yet at the end of section B1 he signed as the debtor.

 

Red flags should be going up because normally a debtor can not also be a creditor.

 

Here! You participate: research "Dewey Ranch Hockey".