SwampD Posted September 8, 2009 Report Posted September 8, 2009 Heres some lists I found with the source of the info coming from the NHL and NHLPA, yet I don't find Anaheim near the bottom of any of the lists TV Ratings 1. NY Rangers 2. NJ Devils 3. Toronto Maple Leafs 4. Anaheim Ducks 5. Los Angeles Kings 6. Montreal Canadiens 7. Detroit Red Wings 8. Dallas Stars 9. Calgary Flames 10. Chicago Blackhawks 11. Florida Panthers 12. NY Islanders 13. Philadelphia Flyers 14. Vancouver Canucks 15. Ottawa Senators 16. Washington Capitals 17. Boston Bruins 18. Edmonton Oilers 19. Pittsburgh Penguins 20. Minnesota Wild 21. Carolina Hurricanes 22. Tampa Bay Lightning 23. Atlanta Thrashers 24. Columbus Blue Jackets 25. Buffalo Sabres 26. St. Louis Blues 27. Colorado Avalanche 28. San Jose Sharks (keep in mind, only the Buffalo market is smaller) 29. Phoenix Coyotes 30. Nashville Predators I don't know where this list is from but it is a joke. Just because the Devils' game is available on that many TV sets doesn't mean that people are watching...they're not.
shrader Posted September 8, 2009 Report Posted September 8, 2009 Dallas Stars on the brink of bankruptcy. Meanwhile, despite their on ice success, Anaheim ranks bottom five in television ratings and as a result has been shut out of national television broadcasts on Versus. In addition, their owner was sent to prison after being convicted of fraud. If one wants to argue against having Balsilie succeed, one should limit the argument to fear that they will potentially harm the Sabres in some economic way, because even though I would argue the opposite is true, trying to make the case for Phoenix as a good hockey market is simply not an intelligent position. Hell, even the residents of Phoenix don't buy it. It's not an argument against moving the team to Hamilton, but I'll just throw it out there anyway. When you say Phoenix isn't a good hockey market, I wonder how many good hockey markets there really are. Obviously winning teams are going to draw more fans, but how many of the markets will draw even when the team sucks? Outside of Minnesota, I really wonder if there is any american market out there that would still draw. Buffalo seems to be moving in that direction, but I'm not ready to say they would draw regardless just yet. Then there are teams like the Rangers that are pretty much immune to the necessity of a good attendance. Really, I'd like to see how Phoenix could do if they actually had a good team. Unfortunately, it's probably too late for that.
DR HOLLIDAY Posted September 8, 2009 Report Posted September 8, 2009 Jimmy Balls just upped his offer to 242 million. http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylt=AgZdvBBO2zjBNu8LZ7CigYRShgM6?slug=capress-nhl_coyotes_bankruptcy-044697628&prov=capress&type=lgns
nfreeman Posted September 8, 2009 Report Posted September 8, 2009 That was taken from the bottom of the article. Dallas financial troouble is stemming from the owner having personal financial trouble in the economy, not because of lack of a fan base. Heres some lists I found with the source of the info coming from the NHL and NHLPA, yet I don't find Anaheim near the bottom of any of the lists [lists deleted so post isn't too long] Game, set, match. End the curse -- you've gotta bring some better (that is to say, true) facts if you want to make any headway on this. Gee, another incidental analogy - AMERICA ARE YOU LISTENING? Nope. I agree with most of your post, but please leave the politics out of it.
KK6666 Posted September 8, 2009 Report Posted September 8, 2009 Not necessarily. The court has to decide if Moyes is even a creditor. As I have said a million times before, Jims bid pays Moyes $104 million, leaving $108 million for other actual creditors. The NHL and Ice Edges Bids both give $140/$150 million to the actual creditors and nothing to Moyes. If the courts decide that Moyes isn't a true creditor, then Jim doesn't have the best bid Why do you assume that Moyes is the key or only creditor the court should focus on? Believe me if the team is going into bankruptcy he isn't the only creditor, if in fact he is a creditor at all. And I do not believe that any judge is going to defer to Balsillie on how the funds are to be divided among creditors.
end the curse Posted September 8, 2009 Report Posted September 8, 2009 "This situtation is surely no good for the NHL or for hockey. Dallas had been one of the Southern franchises that worked. Since relocating from Minnesota in 1993, the Stars have put a Stanley Cup in their trophy room and enjoyed at least the perception of strong ownership. Now they appear on the endangered species list." That was taken from the bottom of the article. Dallas financial troouble is stemming from the owner having personal financial trouble in the economy, not because of lack of a fan base. True that the owner is going bankrupt for reasons outside of hockey, but it still doesn't change the fact that Dallas is a fickle hockey market and the "southern gem" is now showing some real cracks. Heres some lists I found with the source of the info coming from the NHL and NHLPA, yet I don't find Anaheim near the bottom of any of the lists. No links? Perhaps you forgot to read the link to the Sports Business Journal I provided? Anyway, despite all their on-ice successes, Anaheim's 0.29 television ratings rank as the 4th worst in the NHL, and is the reason why they have been excluded from the national television schedule on Versus despite being located in the 2nd largest population center in North America. Incidentally, Buffalo was 1st by a large margin, and were subsequently awarded seven Versus games, more than "big market" Dallas and Anaheim combined. http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/61172 Anyway, this is all a distracction from the real point, which is that even the NHL has acknowledged Phoenix to be a failed experiment and a move will be necessary. The discussion hinges on whether or not a judge will rule that bankruptcy laws are able to trump league rules when there is a conflict between the two. Balsillie's offer of $243 million is far and away better than anything else being considered and it will be almost impossible for a bankruptcy judge to toss it aside no matter what the NHL says. Bottom line: You are taking it personally that Balsillie is trying to place a team in Hamilton, which I can respect, but please don't let that anger cloud your objectivity. If the open market is allowed to bid freely, than Balsillie will get the team and move them to Hamilton. Period, exclamation point.
nfreeman Posted September 8, 2009 Report Posted September 8, 2009 Anyway, this is all a distracction from the real point, which is that even the NHL has acknowledged Phoenix to be a failed experiment and a move will be necessary. The discussion hinges on whether or not a judge will rule that bankruptcy laws are able to trump league rules when there is a conflict between the two. Balsillie's offer of $243 million is far and away better than anything else being considered and it will be almost impossible for a bankruptcy judge to toss it aside no matter what the NHL says. Bottom line: You are taking it personally that Balsillie is trying to place a team in Hamilton, which I can respect, but please don't let that anger cloud your objectivity. If the open market is allowed to bid freely, than Balsillie will get the team and move them to Hamilton. Period, exclamation point. The bolded part isn't quite true. I think it's more accurate to say that the team doesn't work in Phoenix under its current lease and other economic arrangements with the city. The component of the NHL's bid relating to a potential move is there for the same reason Reinsdorf dropped out -- to pressure the city into making economic concessions to the team. As for Balsillie's bid being better than the others -- again, the way the creditors other than Moyes are treated under the different bids will be the key factor. It looks like the new bid will include a substantial payment to the city. This looks like a smart move by Balsillie. However, if the city decides it would rather keep the team by making economic concessions to the NHL/Reinsdorf/Ice Edge/other buyer, it will advise the bankruptcy court of that determination, and that would affect the court's thinking.
shrader Posted September 8, 2009 Report Posted September 8, 2009 With the way he keeps throwing money around, I'm surprised Balsillie hasn't tried to bribe the judge yet.
end the curse Posted September 8, 2009 Report Posted September 8, 2009 Freeman, I know you aren't a fan of the move to Hamilton, but why can't you at least concede the point about Phoenix being untenable? The fact of the matter is Reinsdorf's bid required a $200 million bailout from tax payers over a 5 year period to cover losses, plus an escape clause allowing him to relocate. The NHL in its bid has an escape clause to relocate the team after ONE year. The 3rd bid requires the lease to be completely reworked AND 6 home games per year moved to Saskatoon. I would respect your argument a lot more if you would stop trying to beat the dead horse about the Coyotes succeeding in Phoenix. Nobody believes that anymore, nobody, and it's really a stretch to keep dwelling on it. Of all the other points to refuse to budge on, why dig in on this... that ship has sailed, my friend.
wjag Posted September 8, 2009 Report Posted September 8, 2009 Jimmy Balls just upped his offer to 242 million. http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylt=AgZdvBBO2zjBNu8LZ7CigYRShgM6?slug=capress-nhl_coyotes_bankruptcy-044697628&prov=capress&type=lgns Damn him... I've been forced to raise my bid to 242.5 million now...
end the curse Posted September 8, 2009 Report Posted September 8, 2009 The all-time greatest analysis of the Balsillie vs Bettman battle.
nfreeman Posted September 8, 2009 Report Posted September 8, 2009 Freeman, I know you aren't a fan of the move to Hamilton, but why can't you at least concede the point about Phoenix being untenable? The fact of the matter is Reinsdorf's bid required a $200 million bailout from tax payers over a 5 year period to cover losses, plus an escape clause allowing him to relocate. The NHL in its bid has an escape clause to relocate the team after ONE year. The 3rd bid requires the lease to be completely reworked AND 6 home games per year moved to Saskatoon. I would respect your argument a lot more if you would stop trying to beat the dead horse about the Coyotes succeeding in Phoenix. Nobody believes that anymore, nobody, and it's really a stretch to keep dwelling on it. Of all the other points to refuse to budge on, why dig in on this... that ship has sailed, my friend. No can do. Here's what I can agree to: 1. current lease/economic arrangements do not permit economic survival 2. current hockey performance does not permit economic survival 3. no one wants to be contractually obligated to keep the team there if there is no improvement in current economic results. The NHL's bid included an escape clause because this is the only way it can keep control of the team while pressuring the city to make economic concessions (since as I've admitted the current economic structure is untenable). Reinsdorf's bid included an escape clause that only became effective after 5 years -- which is a pretty substantial period of time. The Ice Edge bid isn't relying on the 6 games in Saskatoon for economic viability; it's merely doing what Balsillie should've done: getting into the NHL and planting the seed for an eventual move to the GWN if Phoenix doesn't work. My bottom line is that there are almost no NHL teams that can survive with a bad lease deal and a consistently lousy team. With those 2 critical items addressed, Phoenix -- which is the 14th-largest US city and which supports NFL, NBA and MLB teams -- should be able to support the NHL as well. Finally, I'd point out that I've read variations of this view many times in many different places. You are free to disagree, but it's simply untrue to say that "nobody believes" a team can work there.
end the curse Posted September 8, 2009 Report Posted September 8, 2009 Yes, while even a franchise in Mexico City could succeed if they had a perfect lease deal and a top Stanley Cup contender, but the reality on the ground simply don't allow for that most of the time. Could baseball succeed in Montreal? Sure, why not...just put a World Series winner in place and a choice stadium deal. That said, some markets are better than others, and will support a particular sport more fervently without the need for everything to be picture perfect. Phoenix is a very transient market, in the desert, that is already fully saturated with basketball, football and baseball. In the current economic climate, the sport of least interest will lose dollars to the sports with the most interest. In Hamilton, for example, hockey will always be the first choice for the sports entertainment dollar, with or without a cup contender. Some markets are just better than others, depending on the sport. Phoenix is a combination of everything wrong: no local hockey interest, a terrible lease agreement, enormous overhead, too much local sports dollar competition, a failing economy, a transient and elderly population base, and an unsuccessful team on the ice. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh-t, my friend.
end the curse Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 And then there were two...looking more and more like a checkmate victory for Team Balsillie. A judge would risk being disbarred from the bench if he turned away an offer $100 million larger than the next and only other bid. The deal to pay off Glendale for $50 million seems to have effectively slammed the door shut. Look for Bettman and company to scramble for reconciliation with Team Balsillie before this gets to auction. Ice Edge Withdraws Bid Howard Bloom, the publisher of sportsbusinessnews.com, believes it will be difficult for the judge to reject Balsillie's latest bid because of the benefits it will bring for the team's current home city. "At the end of the day, Judge Baum has the fiduciary responsibility to do what is in the best interest of the creditors," he told CTV News Channel during an interview from Ottawa on Tuesday morning. "And I don't think in their wildest imaginations, their greatest fantasies...did the city of Glendale ever figure that they were going to get $50 million."
Eleven Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 And then there were two...looking more and more like a checkmate victory for Team Balsillie. A judge would risk being disbarred from the bench if he turned away an offer $100 million larger than the next and only other bid. The deal to pay off Glendale for $50 million seems to have effectively slammed the door shut. Look for Bettman and company to scramble for reconciliation with Team Balsillie before this gets to auction. Ice Edge Withdraws Bid Howard Bloom, the publisher of sportsbusinessnews.com, believes it will be difficult for the judge to reject Balsillie's latest bid because of the benefits it will bring for the team's current home city. "At the end of the day, Judge Baum has the fiduciary responsibility to do what is in the best interest of the creditors," he told CTV News Channel during an interview from Ottawa on Tuesday morning. "And I don't think in their wildest imaginations, their greatest fantasies...did the city of Glendale ever figure that they were going to get $50 million." ETC, why do you think the judge would be disbarred? That's a little over the top, even if he makes a bad decision, right? The decision cannot be entirely about the creditors' rights; it must take into account the franchisor's right to determine where its franchises are located and by whom they are owned. This actually comes up rather routinely with other types of franchises (think gas or retail or fast food), and the franchisor usually wins the battle over who gets to use its marks and how the marks are used. Not saying that's going to happen here, necessarily, but wow, you've got some strong opinions as to the fate of the various players in the game. I don't think it's likely that any judge will be disbarred or that any representative of any party will be jailed. I could be wrong, of course, but I just don't see those types of penalties at all.
end the curse Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 hy⋅per⋅bo⋅le Pronunciation [hahy-pur-buh-lee] –noun Rhetoric. 1. obvious and intentional exaggeration. 2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”
Eleven Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 hy⋅per⋅bo⋅le Pronunciation [hahy-pur-buh-lee] –noun Rhetoric. 1. obvious and intentional exaggeration. 2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.” All right, all right, it's going to take me a couple more weeks to figure out your style.
apuszczalowski Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 ETC, why do you think the judge would be disbarred? That's a little over the top, even if he makes a bad decision, right? The decision cannot be entirely about the creditors' rights; it must take into account the franchisor's right to determine where its franchises are located and by whom they are owned. This actually comes up rather routinely with other types of franchises (think gas or retail or fast food), and the franchisor usually wins the battle over who gets to use its marks and how the marks are used. Not saying that's going to happen here, necessarily, but wow, you've got some strong opinions as to the fate of the various players in the game. I don't think it's likely that any judge will be disbarred or that any representative of any party will be jailed. I could be wrong, of course, but I just don't see those types of penalties at all. Add in the fact that this bid from JB has almost 50% of his bid going to pay the owner of the team to cover his losses, and the court has to ddecide if Moyes is a "Creditor". If he is not, then JB's bid is still a couple million short of the NHLs when you remove what Moyes would get. Unfortunatly all of JB's homers don't understand how a bankruptcy auction works and it doesn't just go to whomever puts up the most money, its all how the bid is broken down.
apuszczalowski Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 Yes, while even a franchise in Mexico City could succeed if they had a perfect lease deal and a top Stanley Cup contender, but the reality on the ground simply don't allow for that most of the time. Could baseball succeed in Montreal? Sure, why not...just put a World Series winner in place and a choice stadium deal. That said, some markets are better than others, and will support a particular sport more fervently without the need for everything to be picture perfect. Phoenix is a very transient market, in the desert, that is already fully saturated with basketball, football and baseball. In the current economic climate, the sport of least interest will lose dollars to the sports with the most interest. In Hamilton, for example, hockey will always be the first choice for the sports entertainment dollar, with or without a cup contender. Some markets are just better than others, depending on the sport. Phoenix is a combination of everything wrong: no local hockey interest, a terrible lease agreement, enormous overhead, too much local sports dollar competition, a failing economy, a transient and elderly population base, and an unsuccessful team on the ice. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh-t, my friend. Theres no guarantee that hamilton will work either. Just because people say that they want it and will support it, doesn't mean they can. All of JB's homers are expecting him to sell tickets comparable to the Sabres then the Leafs, and they expect him to spend freely to win a championship. What happens when JB prices the tickets more like Toronto, and the lower bowl fills up with the corporates who couldn't get Leafs tickets? If Jim is awarded the team, this now sets an example that future owners can use if they want to buy and relocate a team. If this happens, Pro Sports leagues lose all control over where teams can be located and if they can be moved. The Judge has already asked the lawyers for other examples, and this can then be used in future cases, and not just NHL, MLB, NBA, NFL, it doesn't matter
end the curse Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 All right, all right, it's going to take me a couple more weeks to figure out your style. In time you'll realize that I'm the life of the party. Just takes some getting used to... ;)
... Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 Add in the fact that this bid from JB has almost 50% of his bid going to pay the owner of the team to cover his losses, and the court has to ddecide if Moyes is a "Creditor". If he is not, then JB's bid is still a couple million short of the NHLs when you remove what Moyes would get. Unfortunatly all of JB's homers don't understand how a bankruptcy auction works and it doesn't just go to whomever puts up the most money, its all how the bid is broken down. I think the play here may be that Balsille is trying to make Bettman and the NHL look like trash. Despite the insane bid on the team, Balsille can still lose the court battle, and turn around and blame it on the NHL's ol' boy network. That would be a tale a lot of people (Canadians in this instance) couldn't resist.
KK6666 Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 I think the Sabres should be seeking annual compensation as part of any ruling in Balsillie's favor. Buffalo's share of that relocation fee isn't going to come close to fair compensation, considering that it is estimated that 20% of their sales are canadian. The Sabres have mentioned that they would be seeking compensation aside from any relocation fee. It seems to me that after a ruling is made they lose most of their leverage with Balsillie tying the Sabres up in a court battle.
end the curse Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 Theres no guarantee that hamilton will work either. Just because people say that they want it and will support it, doesn't mean they can. Do you actually believe the dreck you spew? Hamilton not necessarily a good market? I mean, wow...just out of curiosity, are you also a member of the flat earth society? :lol:
Eleven Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 Do you actually believe the dreck you spew? Hamilton not necessarily a good market? I mean, wow...just out of curiosity, are you also a member of the flat earth society? :lol: settle down.... Don't run away with the idea of Hamilton so quickly or be so harsh on apusz (with whom I've argued plenty of times in the past). Teams in Winnipeg and Quebec City didn't work so great the first time, either. (For the record, yes, Phoenix is a worse hockey market than Hamilton. I don't think Hamilton fits into the league's plan of targeting larger cities. And ultimately, I don't care; I don't think the Sabres will be that negatively affected. But I don't think Balsille is good for the league, and I think the league knows that.)
end the curse Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 Unfortunatly all of JB's homers don't understand how a bankruptcy auction works and it doesn't just go to whomever puts up the most money, its all how the bid is broken down. Please, do share how you think the fact that Balsillie's offering $243 million dollars, the funding of a new arena in a superior market, and a deal to pay off both Glendale and Moyes, the two largest creditors/debtors, is going to be rejected while the NHL offers $100 million less and NO specific plans to pay off the creditors or turn around the fortunes of the organization. In fact, they are promising to add to the debt for another year, which will be in the neighborhood of $50 million. This is really amusing, but in a way it's also a little uncomfortable seeing someone who just doesn't know when it's time to quit come unhinged. Come on, man, save some face...
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