[OT] Baseball?

[BrightLights]

Yeah, there are Cinderella teams making the WS one year but falling apart the next and having to blow it up and rebuild. Look at who the teams you listed played against:

 

Last year: TBrays. - Philly

07: Col Rockies - Boston

06: St. Louis, Det(not a big market, but a medium one that has been a top 10/12 payroll since; 3rd-highest payroll LY, 5th-highest in 09)

05: CWS, Houston - two mid-size markets with the 12th/13th highest payrolls that year

04: STL - Boston - St Louis had the 9th-highest payroll that year

03: FLMarlins - NY Yanks

02: SF Giants - LA/Anaheim Angels - SF actually had the higher payroll (10th highest) versus LAA's 14th

01:AzDiamondbacks - NY Yanks - AZ had the 8th-highest payroll that year

00: NYYanks - NY Mets

 

So it's less big market versus small market, but more like higher payroll = better chance you get into the playoffs/WS. I'm not saying that spending more $$ means you'll automatically make it into the playoffs - but the extra spending sure seems to help.

 

Of course a little extra spending will help, but this is one of the reasons I love baseball. You have the upstart, youthful Rays who win the East (over Boston and New York) and then beat Boston in the ALCS. You continue to root for them over the Phils. Then the year before you have Colorado the year before winning 14 of 15 to get in and then beating the Phils in the ALDS. Fun teams who no one thought would be there to root for over the bigger teams. I wouldn't say they necessarily fall apart all the time. The Rays are fighting for a playoff spot, the Rockies are 1/2 game outside of the wildcard (bmwolf-we were 10 games under 500 with Hurdle, under Tracy we are now 8 games over 500-a change in management can help a lot-i feel your pain when managers are given too much rope). Houston has seemed to be somewhat competitive for several years, but do seem to fade down the stretch). Saint Louis seems to be up every couple of years. I like the fact that there are villains to root for in the league and there are the underdogs to root for especially if they're playing the Yanks.

[BrightLights]

Is it really fair to put together a list like this that points out where they could be without all their salary dumps when some of these guys were the product of earlier salary dumps?

 

Nope. I don't have a problem with the trades-it's a necessary tool for the mid-level, smaller markets to compete and stay competitive. Like I said I don't have a problem with the Sanchez and Wilson trades-they were likely gone after this year or next after all the options. My problems are you sign a young, good player like McLouth for three years and then trade him in the first year. You have a young player brought up in Morgan that you have developed and then trade him for an under performing outfielder and pitcher. Both moves made supposedly to make room for McCuthcen. Well why not slide McLouth to Right and Morgan to left. With Morgan and McCutchen they said you have two similar players. So, what's wrong with speed at the top of the lineup. Put them 1-2 in the lineup and try to put pressure in the lineup. (Now Jones came up after the Morgan trade and granted he's been playing very well since he's been in the majors still can keep him to platoon in the OF and pinch run). The point with these trades they're missing the point. You're supposed to build a team that contend for a few years, and then trade when it's contract time. (A point I don't like, but have learned to accept-it's the way it is with the way baseball is set up). They're trading them before they even have a chance to compete.

[shrader]

Ahhhh MLB, what a joke you are. Next on the list: David Ortiz.

[BrightLights]

Ahhhh MLB, what a joke you are. Next on the list: David Ortiz.

 

Agreed about the steroids, baseball made it's bed and now they have to sleep in it. I think they should just release the list and move on. I'm tired of names being leaked every couple of months, get it out there and move on. It's a dark era for baseball and I just wish all the talk would end. It's also such a double standard because NFL players that get busted you barely hear anything about it.

[shrader]

Agreed about the steroids, baseball made it's bed and now they have to sleep in it. I think they should just release the list and move on. I'm tired of names being leaked every couple of months, get it out there and move on. It's a dark era for baseball and I just wish all the talk would end. It's also such a double standard because NFL players that get busted you barely hear anything about it.

 

They will never release the list. Contractually, they can't. It will continue to leak like this because the media can twist it into a better story that way.

 

What I don't understand is why there ever was a way to trace back the testing to the individual. If they wanted to get an idea of how many players were using, why did they need anything that would link the samples back to the names? They should have de-itentified the samples immediately. So in the end, you still have your rate of users, but no idea who they are.

[Bmwolf21]

Of course a little extra spending will help, but this is one of the reasons I love baseball. You have the upstart, youthful Rays who win the East (over Boston and New York) and then beat Boston in the ALCS. You continue to root for them over the Phils. Then the year before you have Colorado the year before winning 14 of 15 to get in and then beating the Phils in the ALDS. Fun teams who no one thought would be there to root for over the bigger teams. I wouldn't say they necessarily fall apart all the time. The Rays are fighting for a playoff spot, the Rockies are 1/2 game outside of the wildcard (bmwolf-we were 10 games under 500 with Hurdle, under Tracy we are now 8 games over 500-a change in management can help a lot-i feel your pain when managers are given too much rope). Houston has seemed to be somewhat competitive for several years, but do seem to fade down the stretch). Saint Louis seems to be up every couple of years. I like the fact that there are villains to root for in the league and there are the underdogs to root for especially if they're playing the Yanks.

I'm fine with the idea of some teams spending somewhat more than others. It's the disparities between the highest payroll and the 10th-highest payroll that shows how ridiculously out of whack the whole economic climate is in MLB and how the deck is stacked against anyone not based in NY, Boston, LA and Chicago.

 

As for the managers - I have no idea how our career .500 manager with one division title and one playoff appearance has been with the same team for seven years, as long as guys like Bobby Cox, Gardenhire, LaRussa. His teams are often slow out of the gate, requiring huge runs to get back to .500, and lately his players show an alarming lack of fundamentals. Pitchers can't throw strikes and walk too many batter, hitters strike out too much and can't come up with the clutch hit, baserunning mistakes, defensive brain farts...just bad baseball.

[BrightLights]

As for the managers - I have no idea how our career .500 manager with one division title and one playoff appearance has been with the same team for seven years, as long as guys like Bobby Cox, Gardenhire, LaRussa. His teams are often slow out of the gate, requiring huge runs to get back to .500, and lately his players show an alarming lack of fundamentals. Pitchers can't throw strikes and walk too many batter, hitters strike out too much and can't come up with the clutch hit, baserunning mistakes, defensive brain farts...just bad baseball.

 

I know, I like the fact that teams try to give their managers some rope, but it seems like we were in the same boat with managers. I like Hurdle's personality, he seemed like a good guy, but I thought he was just bad as a manager. 8 yrs. in Colorado a .461 winning percentage, no division titles, and the one remarkable run. The year after the world series we vastly underperformed and this year Tracy has taken the Rockies into playoff contention when he was given a 10 game hole. Granted the Mets are having their way with the Rox this week but I'm glad Hurdle was replaced-it was time.

[shrader]

As for the managers - I have no idea how our career .500 manager with one division title and one playoff appearance has been with the same team for seven years

 

I wonder if old man PA is reading this.

[Bmwolf21]

I know, I like the fact that teams try to give their managers some rope, but it seems like we were in the same boat with managers. I like Hurdle's personality, he seemed like a good guy, but I thought he was just bad as a manager. 8 yrs. in Colorado a .461 winning percentage, no division titles, and the one remarkable run. The year after the world series we vastly underperformed and this year Tracy has taken the Rockies into playoff contention when he was given a 10 game hole. Granted the Mets are having their way with the Rox this week but I'm glad Hurdle was replaced-it was time.

I actually got to meet Wedge once, back when he was managing the Bisons and I was an intern there. He seems like a great guy, I just think he's either in over his head or the guys have tuned him out. Either way it's time for a change. His teams consistently come out of ST flat and are not ready for the first month or so of the regular season.

[R_Dudley]

Yeah I'll admit, I've been in Pgh the past five years and it's been great to be able to go to a MLB game any time for anywhere from $1/ticket to $20. NICE stadium, family-friendly, great for tailgating too.

 

I see how the fans here can be a bit steamed, but hell, I can't pity them too much, given what the Pens/Stillers have been up to. <_<

 

I think it was two summers ago, a bunch of people tried to stage a walkout during the 3rd inning of a game to protest the FO here. And if I remember correctly, it failed somewhat due to the fact that the team was actually winning the game, so many people wanted to stay and witness the miracle :lol:

 

Ah yes I rememeber that. :lol: They have actually tried it more than once, sounded like a great plan. What truly amazes me is there are still allot of die hard Bucko' fans here that faithfully watch tv, listen on the radio and may go to a few games a year. Some guy's I know have a tail gate every late summer on one of th friday nigth games... We just go and sit in the parking lot, eat, drink, bull sh!t and listen on the radio, They always buy a few bleacher seats if anyone wants to go in and watch but for at least the last 3 years and since it's been in september(and they've been so far out of race) we just hang out and enjoy the tailgate.

[North Buffalo]

With all the roid stuff, I think an asterisk needs to be placed next to every team and player since the '89 As. This is getting silly, put the list out and move on. P.S. I am a bedtime Mess fan who only goes out of hibernation when they make the playoffs or during the world series, and once in a while during the summer when nothing else is on, like now and you just can't ignore the roid story, the thing that keeps on giving.

 

The good thing about all this Roid discussion is that it denigrates the whole game and gives hockey a chance at raising its ratings.

 

Though going to a baseball game is like nothing else, whether in the old Shay, Citifield, Yankee Stadium I or II, Boston or Camden Yards where I have seen games has always been enjoyable even when the game was boring. Even the juice can't take that away... though the same can be said for a hockey game too.

[shrader]

The good thing about all this Roid discussion is that it denigrates the whole game and gives hockey a chance at raising its ratings.

 

Yeah, good luck with that.

[nucci]

There was a time where the Commissioner of Baseball rejected trades because they went against the integrity of the game. The soul has gone out of the game as has the integrity.

Once they allowed steroids and ignored the the whole issue regarding them, baseball lost me.

[Bmwolf21]

And the hits just keep on coming...LINK

[Mbossy]

And the hits just keep on coming...LINK

Martinez leaves Cleveland a day before the Indians were to hold Victor Martinez Bobblehead Night at Progressive Field in their game against Detroit.

:oops: :w00t:

[deluca67]

Martinez leaves Cleveland a day before the Indians were to hold Victor Martinez Bobblehead Night at Progressive Field in their game against Detroit.

:oops: :w00t:

I've been a Red Sox fan for 30+ years. I hate this move and I am embarrassed by it. I want the Sox to win but not at the cost of the destruction of the game. Is there any greater shining example of what is wrong with MLB than the Pittsburgh Pirates. Pittsburgh is the reigning Suber Bowl and Stanley Cup Champion and the Pirates can't compete on any level in MLB. It is time to the all the BS about steroids in MLB and focus on the real problem which is the lack of a salary cap.

[Bmwolf21]

I've been a Red Sox fan for 30+ years. I hate this move and I am embarrassed by it. I want the Sox to win but not at the cost of the destruction of the game. Is there any greater shining example of what is wrong with MLB than the Pittsburgh Pirates. Pittsburgh is the reigning Suber Bowl and Stanley Cup Champion and the Pirates can't compete on any level in MLB. It is time to the all the BS about steroids in MLB and focus on the real problem which is the lack of a salary cap.

As a Tribe fan, it was really tough to see V-Mart go 5-6 today with 4 RBI.

 

Anyway, back on target: here's an excerpt from a Boston.com article which shows how screwed up the Pirates ownership is:

 

With 67 percent of the season gone, the Pirates are only on the hook for less than $9 million for the remainder of 2009,?? Bouma writes in an e-mail. Bouma points out that the Pirates are the only team in the majors without a player making at least the MLB average salary of $3.26 million (Paul Maholm is highest at $2.5 million).

 

?Last year, the Pirates are believed to have received a revenue-sharing check of $27 million from MLB, based on figures leaked to the Wall Street Journal,?? Bouma writes. ?They receive close to $35 million from the national TV contracts. That is $62 million before anyone buys a ticket, sets foot in PNC Park on Opening Day and buys a hot dog, or watches or listens to a game on local TV and radio. Not to mention what they will receive from MLB for the MLB Network and MLB.com/MLB.TV and Extra Innings packages. On top of this, they let go many front-office people [some with 20 years of service] earlier this season.

 

?This is no longer a problem of ?how baseball is structured? any longer. This is both fundamentally and ethically wrong . . . It is high time this [ownership] group is held accountable for the complete mismanagement of the franchise as their excuses have run out.??

 

I don't usually agree with EiI, but there does have to some accountability of ownership to put some of these costs back into the club.

 

 

LINK

[Foligno's Nose]

I'm a Red Sox fan. I won;t be jumping for joy if they get Halliday.

 

I'm a Blue Jays fan and I am glad Halladay stayed in the Big Smoke but I am hoping they can talk him into an extension.

I do not blame him for wanting to go to a contender though.

JP Ricciardi will have to go for not pulling the deal off. He botched it.

In 2005 he traded for Lyle Overbay, and signed AJ Burnett & BJ Ryan.

There was some promise even at the beginning of this year, but after a nine game road losing streak - it was over again.

Vernon Wells and Alex Rios have busted.

Scott Rolen asked for a deal out of town after playing great this year.

The pitching is injury-riddled - but still promising.

 

There are some positives.

Cito Gaston has returned and has brought some stability amongst the wreckage.

Marco Scutaro and Aaron Hill have been awsome at the top of the order and on the field.

Adam Lind has hit for power.

 

I am curious though.

In 1992 and 1993, Toronto did exactly what the big market clubs are doing today.

They acquired big stars in free agency and were major players at the trade deadline.

They parlayed them into back-to-back World Series.

 

You won't hear me bitching about the Red sox, Yankees & Phillies making the necessary moves for the run.

 

I guess - Go Tampa Bay!

That is a real likeable team.

Mostly built from within.

[deluca67]

As a Tribe fan, it was really tough to see V-Mart go 5-6 today with 4 RBI.

 

Anyway, back on target: here's an excerpt from a Boston.com article which shows how screwed up the Pirates ownership is:

 

With 67 percent of the season gone, the Pirates are only on the hook for less than $9 million for the remainder of 2009,?? Bouma writes in an e-mail. Bouma points out that the Pirates are the only team in the majors without a player making at least the MLB average salary of $3.26 million (Paul Maholm is highest at $2.5 million).

 

?Last year, the Pirates are believed to have received a revenue-sharing check of $27 million from MLB, based on figures leaked to the Wall Street Journal,?? Bouma writes. ?They receive close to $35 million from the national TV contracts. That is $62 million before anyone buys a ticket, sets foot in PNC Park on Opening Day and buys a hot dog, or watches or listens to a game on local TV and radio. Not to mention what they will receive from MLB for the MLB Network and MLB.com/MLB.TV and Extra Innings packages. On top of this, they let go many front-office people [some with 20 years of service] earlier this season.

 

?This is no longer a problem of ?how baseball is structured? any longer. This is both fundamentally and ethically wrong . . . It is high time this [ownership] group is held accountable for the complete mismanagement of the franchise as their excuses have run out.??

 

I don't usually agree with EiI, but there does have to some accountability of ownership to put some of these costs back into the club.

LINK

Are you old enough to remember back when MLB has a commissioner and moves would be blocked under "the best interest of Baseball" provision.

[Bmwolf21]

Are you old enough to remember back when MLB has a commissioner and moves would be blocked under "the best interest of Baseball" provision.

Unfortunately I don't remember that. My baseball commissioner memory only goes back to Giamatti.

[Foligno's Nose]

Unfortunately I don't remember that. My baseball commissioner memory only goes back to Giamatti.

 

back to Bowie Kuhn for me...and it is foggy.

[Sabre Dance]

I used to be an MLB fan in the 70's and early 80's - I liked the Pirates (the family is from Western PA) and the Red Sox (had to love the underdogs). The '86 series made me question my support of the Red Sox and the Pirates began to fade. Then between free agency, the strike and eventually the steroid allegations, I haven't watched an MLB game in its entirety for over a decade. Also, it just seems wrong when the yearly payroll for a single team like the Yankees is nearly double what the government spends on clinical cancer research each year. It just seems like a real waste of money to watch guys whose muscles came out of a vial get paid more than the GDP of some Central American country to chase a ball around a field. (The same is true about the other major sports, too. I choose to follow hockey since it is my favorite sport and it is the lesser of several evils.)

[red]

I drop my proverbial turd into the sea that is baseball.

 

Don't get me wrong- I respect the game for what it is and for it's history- but I never really got into it as it bores me to death and the whole steroid garbage has turned off what may have ever been any kind of a remote interest.

 

Can someone please pass the toilet paper, I need to flush...