Josh Harding available?

[bottlecap]

The Wild just signed Dubliewicz as a backup behind Backstrom. Maybe they're planning on trading Harding who I think would be a great addition to the Sabres. I wish we could trade Miller, get Harding and get rid of Lalime, who's useless, except for being Miller's personal cheerleader.

 

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=284911

[Stoner]

The Wild just signed Dubliewicz as a backup behind Backstrom. Maybe they're planning on trading Harding who I think would be a great addition to the Sabres. I wish we could trade Miller, get Harding and get rid of Lalime, who's useless, except for being Miller's personal cheerleader.

 

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=284911

 

Way to think outside the box. That would sure blow the stink off this team. Break up "the boys" for sure and maybe give us greatness in goal for the first time since 2001. Of course it could backfire. The willy-nillies in the front office and on SS won't have it. Prepare to lambasted, bottlecap. But I'm here to take the beatdown with you.

[carpandean]

Way to think outside the box. That would sure blow the stink off this team. Break up "the boys" for sure and maybe give us greatness in goal for the first time since 2001. Of course it could backfire. The willy-nillies in the front office and on SS won't have it. Prepare to lambasted, bottlecap. But I'm here to take the beatdown with you.

I have no problem thinking outside the box, but what makes you think that Harding will be any better than Miller? Sure, his numbers look a little better in 2006-07 and 2008-09, when Harding was playing the backup role (usually means facing the weaker teams) on a more defensively-minded team. When he had a bigger role in 2007-08 (29 games), his numbers were worse than Miller's on, again, a more defensively-minded team. Plus, he has played in all of one period in one playoff game, so you have no idea how he will do under that pressure.

[Taro T]

Way to think outside the box. That would sure blow the stink off this team. Break up "the boys" for sure and maybe give us greatness in goal for the first time since 2001. Of course it could backfire. The willy-nillies in the front office and on SS won't have it. Prepare to lambasted, bottlecap. But I'm here to take the beatdown with you.

You think Harding is a better goalie than Miller?

 

I've only seen him play one game - when he beat the Sabres 3 years ago. He looked very good that night.

 

I wouldn't say he's an upgrade w/out seeing some more of him.

[Stoner]

Taro, I didn't say he was better. Trades don't always have to be about who is better right now.

 

I don't know much. But I know Miller's almost 30 and we know what we have. And Harding is 25, cheaper and highly regarded -- he could be much better than Miller. Or much worse.

 

It's all just a fantasy, but if Miller brings a good return that spackles a couple of the big holes on this team, and we start next season with Josh Harding in goal... who cares?

 

It's sports. It's entertainment. Change is good. If you're going to miss the playoffs for the sixth time in eight years (and almost seven in 10!), at least look different doing it. I apologize, but I'm not looking forward to five, six, eight, 11 more years of Ryan Miller in goal and Lindy Ruff behind the bench.

 

Fresh meat.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Yes, let's trade the guy who 12 months ago everyone agreed HAD to be locked up long term because the team in front of him has issues and create yet another question mark, this time at the most important position. [/sarcasm]

Come on, guys. Harding has played fewer career games than Miller played last season. If he is such an amazing prospect, why did Backstrom have to play 71 games last season? Why did they give a 31-year old guy a $24 million deal if they had their goalie of the future sitting on the bench? Why isn't anyone after Harding with an offer sheet? He looks like a good young goalie but is no more of a sure thing than Enroth ... if the Sabres are going to blow things up and "think outside the box,", why not just promote the kid and let him learn on the fly like the Pens did with Fleury? Why pay for Harding when you are not sure he can handle the job anyway?

I am all for "breaking up the boys," I really am. As far as I am concerned there is not a skater on the current roster who is untouchable ... and you MIGHT even talk me into Miller in the right deal. But not if you tell me they would be left with Josh Harding as the cornerstone of the franchise.

[Stoner]

Yes, let's trade the guy who 12 months ago everyone agreed HAD to be locked up long term because the team in front of him has issues and create yet another question mark, this time at the most important position. [/sarcasm]

Come on, guys. Harding has played fewer career games than Miller played last season. If he is such an amazing prospect, why did Backstrom have to play 71 games last season? Why did they give a 31-year old guy a $24 million deal if they had their goalie of the future sitting on the bench? Why isn't anyone after Harding with an offer sheet? He looks like a good young goalie but is no more of a sure thing than Enroth ... if the Sabres are going to blow things up and "think outside the box,", why not just promote the kid and let him learn on the fly like the Pens did with Fleury? Why pay for Harding when you are not sure he can handle the job anyway?

I am all for "breaking up the boys," I really am. As far as I am concerned there is not a skater on the current roster who is untouchable ... and you MIGHT even talk me into Miller in the right deal. But not if you tell me they would be left with Josh Harding as the cornerstone of the franchise.

 

I never said Miller had to be locked up. I think he's a sniveling sieve of a cross-eyed whiny bitch.

 

"Looks like a good young goalie" is fine with me. And I'd have no problem promoting Enroth. Isn't he the future anyway? Can we honestly look at the current core -- Miller, Vanek, Roy, Pominville etc. -- and see a Stanley Cup anywhere but in our delusions? Hey, it's LQ who said the organization's goal is to win a championship. If that were true, they'd be tearing it apart and building for three or four years down the road when some of the current prospects will be maturing. But they know this fan base won't settle for really sucking, just sucking a little bit, and they know this fan base won't ever demand a winner.

[Taro T]

Taro, I didn't say he was better. Trades don't always have to be about who is better right now.

 

I don't know much. But I know Miller's almost 30 and we know what we have. And Harding is 25, cheaper and highly regarded -- he could be much better than Miller. Or much worse.

 

It's all just a fantasy, but if Miller brings a good return that spackles a couple of the big holes on this team, and we start next season with Josh Harding in goal... who cares?

 

It's sports. It's entertainment. Change is good. If you're going to miss the playoffs for the sixth time in eight years (and almost seven in 10!), at least look differently doing it. I apologize, but I'm not looking forward to five, six, eight, 11 more years of Ryan Miller in goal and Lindy Ruff behind the bench.

 

Fresh meat.

And goalies come into their own around 30. Take a look at the ages of the guys when they win the Vezina, it's rare to have a guy win it when he's significantly younger than 30. Since Dom started winning it, Carey and Theodore did it, but Carey was a flash in the pan and Theodore has never been the same since the scandals.

 

You've already gone through the growing pains w/ Miller and he is now at a point where he is a top goalie (He'd just miss my top 5). Why go through the growing pains w/ Harding as your #1?

 

Moe-ray-all dumped Huet to run w/ Price. How's that worked out?

 

I have no problem w/ shaking this team up. I just don't want it to be a total roll of the dice when you have to roll box cars to get it to pan out.

[BetweenThePipes00]

I never said Miller had to be locked up. I think he's a sniveling sieve of a cross-eyed whiny bitch.

OK well if Miller is a "sieve," then I am 100% on board and the team in front of him must not be as horrible as you think ... over the last two years he is 70-35-16 ... if this team of overpayed, soft under-achievers can win 58% of its games (which would translate to about 48 wins a season) with a sieve in goal, imagine what it could do with an average NHL goalie. :rolleyes:

 

If you think they should blow it up and start over, fine, I can respect that stance. I may not agree that agree Miller should be the first guy to go, but I can respect the idea. If you are just going to rail against everything and try to get a reaction with silly personal attacks (cross-eyed whiny bitch? really?), it's tough to have a conversation.

[shrader]

Let's keep in mind that Minnesota's system has traditionally inflated the stats of goalies. It happened with Rollie and Fernandez.

[Stoner]

OK well if Miller is a "sieve," then I am 100% on board and the team in front of him must not be as horrible as you think ... over the last two years he is 70-35-16 ... if this team of overpayed, soft under-achievers can win 58% of its games (which would translate to about 48 wins a season) with a sieve in goal, imagine what it could do with an average NHL goalie. :rolleyes:

 

If you think they should blow it up and start over, fine, I can respect that stance. I may not agree that agree Miller should be the first guy to go, but I can respect the idea. If you are just going to rail against everything and try to get a reaction with silly personal attacks (cross-eyed whiny bitch? really?), it's tough to have a conversation.

 

Get your facts straight. Please. Sniveling sieve of a cross-eyed whiny bitch.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Get your facts straight. Please. Sniveling sieve of a cross-eyed whiny bitch.

 

I addressed the "sieve" part, and I'll give you "sniveling," no one is above taking a shot or two around here ... but "cross-eyed whiny bitch" was cheap shot that added nothing to your argument. IMO. ;)

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

And goalies come into their own around 30. Take a look at the ages of the guys when they win the Vezina, it's rare to have a guy win it when he's significantly younger than 30.

 

 

What???

 

Here's the ages of the past 15 players that won the Vezina, the first time they won it.

 

Pete Peters 25

Tom Barrasso 19

Pelle Lindberg 25

John Vanbiesbrouck 22

Ron Hextall 23

Grant Fuhr 25

Patrick Roy 23

Ed Belfour 26

Dominik Hasek 29

Jim Carey 22

Olaf Kolzig 30

Jose Theodore 25

Martin Brodeur 31

Mika Kiprusoff 29

Tim Thomas 35

 

9 of 15 were 25 or under

 

Hasek was stuck behind fellow winners in Fuhr and Belfour

 

As easily as you dismiss Carey and Theodore, I will dismiss Thomas and Kolzig as journeymen who struck lightning in a bottle at a certain point.

 

Marty Brodeur is the only franchise goalie that didn't win until older...but he was a top level goalie the whole time, stuck in the voting line against Roy and Hasek.

 

You are better than this to pull out such a weak point in defense of one of the Backside Boys. Miller is better than average, but to keep pulling out the "he's a young goalie" card is a plain joke. Until the hard core hockey fans stop making excuses for the organization, those of us that would like to feel a connection to the team once again are stuck on the sidelines until things get so bad that even the accountants and 14 year old girls abandon the team.

[Taro T]

What???

 

Here's the ages of the past 15 players that won the Vezina, the first time they won it.

 

Pete Peters 25

Tom Barrasso 19

Pelle Lindberg 25

John Vanbiesbrouck 22

Ron Hextall 23

Grant Fuhr 25

Patrick Roy 23

Ed Belfour 26

Dominik Hasek 29

Jim Carey 22

Olaf Kolzig 30

Jose Theodore 25

Martin Brodeur 31

Mika Kiprusoff 29

Tim Thomas 35

 

9 of 15 were 25 or under

 

Hasek was stuck behind fellow winners in Fuhr and Belfour

 

As easily as you dismiss Carey and Theodore, I will dismiss Thomas and Kolzig as journeymen who struck lightning in a bottle at a certain point.

 

Marty Brodeur is the only franchise goalie that didn't win until older...but he was a top level goalie the whole time, stuck in the voting line against Roy and Hasek.

 

You are better than this to pull out such a weak point in defense of one of the Backside Boys. Miller is better than average, but to keep pulling out the "he's a young goalie" card is a plain joke. Until the hard core hockey fans stop making excuses for the organization, those of us that would like to feel a connection to the team once again are stuck on the sidelines until things get so bad that even the accountants and 14 year old girls abandon the team.

Well, since goalies started getting back down to low 2's (even the occassional sub 2.00) for leading GAA's (which coincided with the butterfly (or a butterfly hybrid in the case of Dom) being far and away the dominant style for elite goalies and the pads making guys like Hasek and Biron look as wide as Espo did in his prime) only 2 guys under 29 have won the Vezina. 8 of the 10 youngsters won back in the pre-trap, pre-huge pads, reaction goaltending days. Might the reflexes of youth have something to do with those wins from the '80's, and the wisdom of experience have something to do with the wins since '94?

 

And Hasek and Kiprusoff aren't franchise goalies? Really?

 

 

I'm not making excuses for Miller. Where precisely did I pull the "he's a young goalie card?"

 

I believe he is a top 10 goalie, but not top 5. (Actually, none of the guys that I consider top 5 are younger than 30; though I would put guys younger than 30 in the top 10.) I am saying I expect that he is currently better than Harding. Do you believe differently about Harding?

 

While Harding may eventually become an elite goalie, he doesn't appear to be one today, and it is not a given that he will become one. I'd be very happy with him backing up Miller, but I don't want him replacing him. (At least not in the next 2 years minimum.)

[bottlecap]

I can't wait to see the sniveling sieve of a cross-eyed whiny bitch do his first "WTF" wave for the 2009 season.

[Stoner]

I can't wait to see the sniveling sieve of a cross-eyed whiny bitch do his first "WTF" wave for the 2009 season.

 

You and me, kid, we can go places!

[Eleven]

Back to the original issue for a moment...let's say the Sabres did want to go after Harding. What do you think Minnesota would want for him (since it likely won't be another goalie)? We're looking at two trades here, not one--the first trade brings in Harding, and the second ships out Miller. And that second trade better bring in some serious talent while simultaneously relieving the Sabres of a salary-heavy mediocre veteran or two.

 

I don't know much about Harding, but it seems that the consensus is that he's not quite as good as Miller--right now. So, what about bringing him in and keeping Miller, and shipping Lalime out?

[BetweenThePipes00]

You guys are amazing. The guy's numbers get better as the team around him gets worse and HE is the problem?

Again, you can't have it both ways ... if the team around him is so bad that it needs to be blown up, and it just might be, he must be pretty good to win 58% of the time. If you want to clamor for him to be traded because of what he will bring in return and you don't believe he is the cornerstone of a Cup team, fine. But when you call him a "sniveling sieve of a cross-eyed whiny bitch" it makes me wonder how many of your other complaints are well-thought out and how many just bitching for the sake of bitching to get a reaction.

I hate the "WTF wave" too. HATE IT. HATE IT HATE IT. But he is one of the few (only?) guys on the team who is a better player than he was in 2006-07. Even if they blow it up with a major, major shakeup deal, I'd rather have them rebuild around him than anyone on the team.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Back to the original issue for a moment...let's say the Sabres did want to go after Harding. What do you think Minnesota would want for him (since it likely won't be another goalie)? We're looking at two trades here, not one--the first trade brings in Harding, and the second ships out Miller. And that second trade better bring in some serious talent while simultaneously relieving the Sabres of a salary-heavy mediocre veteran or two.

 

I don't know much about Harding, but it seems that the consensus is that he's not quite as good as Miller--right now. So, what about bringing him in and keeping Miller, and shipping Lalime out?

 

Harding turned down arbitration after making $750,000 last season. He wants to go somewhere where he has a chance to start. Sitting behind Miller is the same as sitting behind Backstrom. Even if the Sabres traded for his rights, he wouldn't be happy playing behind Miller and probably wouldn't do it for the $1 million they are paying Lalime. Why give up assets in trade for that?

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Well, since goalies started getting back down to low 2's (even the occassional sub 2.00) for leading GAA's (which coincided with the butterfly (or a butterfly hybrid in the case of Dom) being far and away the dominant style for elite goalies and the pads making guys like Hasek and Biron look as wide as Espo did in his prime) only 2 guys under 29 have won the Vezina. 8 of the 10 youngsters won back in the pre-trap, pre-huge pads, reaction goaltending days. Might the reflexes of youth have something to do with those wins from the '80's, and the wisdom of experience have something to do with the wins since '94?

 

And Hasek and Kiprusoff aren't franchise goalies? Really?

I'm not making excuses for Miller. Where precisely did I pull the "he's a young goalie card?"

 

I believe he is a top 10 goalie, but not top 5. (Actually, none of the guys that I consider top 5 are younger than 30; though I would put guys younger than 30 in the top 10.) I am saying I expect that he is currently better than Harding. Do you believe differently about Harding?

 

While Harding may eventually become an elite goalie, he doesn't appear to be one today, and it is not a given that he will become one. I'd be very happy with him backing up Miller, but I don't want him replacing him. (At least not in the next 2 years minimum.)

 

By saying "Goalies start coming into their own around 30", you are tacetly saying Miller is a young goalie...which is what we've heard from the front office the past 2 years.

 

Hasek is a franchise goalie...so much so in fact that Lindy Ruff is a .500 coach in games which Hasek isn't in net. I said the only reason he wasn't a stud earlier is that he was behind Belfour and Fuhr, both Vezina winners, for half a decade.

 

Your point on age is flawed. Most goalies that are shut down goalies show up to an elite level way before their 30th birthday. If youth and ability no longer matter....then Lalime and Thibault should have been awesome. They have plenty of successful starting experience. Maybe we should trade Enroth away for 10 years?

 

I agree that Miller is a top 5-13 goalie......but that is pretty much all he will ever be. To tow the company line and HOPE he will improve and everything will go his way, is not the way I do business. I don't know enough about Harding to give an opinion. I would say however that to dismiss his chances of becoming better than Miller in a short amount of time because of his age is folly.

[Eleven]

Harding turned down arbitration after making $750,000 last season. He wants to go somewhere where he has a chance to start. Sitting behind Miller is the same as sitting behind Backstrom. Even if the Sabres traded for his rights, he wouldn't be happy playing behind Miller and probably wouldn't do it for the $1 million they are paying Lalime. Why give up assets in trade for that?

 

Because I have a dream--some may call it a "pipe dream"--that one day, Lindy Ruff will learn how to manage the goaltender position, and that we'll want the Sabres to have a guy who can play 21-25 games and win a significant amount of them. If Harding wants to start, this probably isn't the right place for him, but if he just wants to double his salary, well, I see $1.5M for a good alternate-starter type of backup as a better investment than $1M in Lalime.

 

Plus, Miller won't be around forever, and his body will become more injury prone, not less (especially if he has designs on playing in Vancouver this winter).

[BetweenThePipes00]

Because I have a dream--some may call it a "pipe dream"--that one day, Lindy Ruff will learn how to manage the goaltender position, and that we'll want the Sabres to have a guy who can play 21-25 games and win a significant amount of them. If Harding wants to start, this probably isn't the right place for him, but if he just wants to double his salary, well, I see $1.5M for a good alternate-starter type of backup as a better investment than $1M in Lalime.

 

Plus, Miller won't be around forever, and his body will become more injury prone, not less (especially if he has designs on playing in Vancouver this winter).

 

That really is a dream if you think they are going to invest $2.5 million in the backup goalie position for 21-25 games ... because NO ONE is taking lalime off their hands, so they are stuck paying him.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

You guys are amazing. The guy's numbers get better as the team around him gets worse and HE is the problem?

Again, you can't have it both ways ... if the team around him is so bad that it needs to be blown up, and it just might be, he must be pretty good to win 58% of the time. If you want to clamor for him to be traded because of what he will bring in return and you don't believe he is the cornerstone of a Cup team, fine. But when you call him a "sniveling sieve of a cross-eyed whiny bitch" it makes me wonder how many of your other complaints are well-thought out and how many just bitching for the sake of bitching to get a reaction.

I hate the "WTF wave" too. HATE IT. HATE IT HATE IT. But he is one of the few (only?) guys on the team who is a better player than he was in 2006-07. Even if they blow it up with a major, major shakeup deal, I'd rather have them rebuild around him than anyone on the team.

 

Miller did play well for the most part last year. Can he play 65+ games, take a decent team to the playoffs, and then go deep? Probably not. Can he play 55 games on a high powered, hard working team, then win the Stanley Cup? Probably.

 

Problem is, he is on the 1st team, and there is much too much of a gap to make up before he is playing on the 2nd type of team again.

 

I can't wait to see him wither the last 10 games of the season if he goes to the olypics...AND has to play close to 70 regular season games. I predict he will be hospitalized if that is the case. Seriously.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Because I have a dream--some may call it a "pipe dream"--that one day, Lindy Ruff will learn how to manage the goaltender position, and that we'll want the Sabres to have a guy who can play 21-25 games and win a significant amount of them. If Harding wants to start, this probably isn't the right place for him, but if he just wants to double his salary, well, I see $1.5M for a good alternate-starter type of backup as a better investment than $1M in Lalime.

 

Plus, Miller won't be around forever, and his body will become more injury prone, not less (especially if he has designs on playing in Vancouver this winter).

 

Wow...collective conciousness in the posts!

[BetweenThePipes00]

Miller did play well for the most part last year. Can he play 65+ games, take a decent team to the playoffs, and then go deep? Probably not. Can he play 55 games on a high powered, hard working team, then win the Stanley Cup? Probably.

 

Problem is, he is on the 1st team, and there is much too much of a gap to make up before he is playing on the 2nd type of team again.

 

I can't wait to see him wither the last 10 games of the season if he goes to the olypics...AND has to play close to 70 regular season games. I predict he will be hospitalized if that is the case. Seriously.

 

Maybe he can't carry a team on his back to a Cup, and maybe the Sabres have so many problems that the best move IS to trade him. I said I was open to just about anything in the right deal. My issue was with the "sniveling sieve of a cross-eyed whiny bitch" comment ... he's not a sieve and the rest of that is just PA trying to be funny (and admittedly succeeding a little) ...