Stoner Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 2. I would much rather have kept Vanek than taken 4 first-round picks. Edmonton's first-rounder in 2007 (#6 in the draft) was Sam Gagner, who looks like a nice player and had 13 goals in his 1st year and 16 in his 2nd. With Vanek, Edmonton might have finished a few slots higher, resulting in a worse draft pick. No one picked near Gagner has had much of an impact in the NHL yet. Edmonton also had, via trades, the #15 and #21 picks that year -- not sure if those would've gone to the Sabres as compensation, or whether it would've been Edmonton's "natural" first-rounder for 4 years in a row. Either way, the guys they picked -- Alex Plante and Riley Nash -- aren't going to make anyone forget Vanek. In 2008, coincidentally enough, Edmonton originally had the 13th pick, which they traded to LA, who then traded it to Buffalo, who picked Myers. Edmonton also had #22 via trade and picked Jordan Eberle, who played in juniors last year. Bottom line on first-rounders is that it is a huge crapshoot and unless you are going to get top-3 picks, I think it's crazy to give up a guy like Vanek. 5. Just so PAFan's BS doesn't go unchallenged: Vanek will get more ice time when he earns it. When he does, his scoring numbers will improve. I agree with you on Point 2. But we wouldn't have gotten Edmonton 2007 first-rounder. :) It sounds so tempting -- four first rounders! They're not worth much in the short term, unless Darcy had leveraged them for a player. As for Point 5, Vanek had 30 goals through 24 games last year and was a plus player. He was to that point in the season more than half the time getting 19, 20, 21 minutes and more of ice time. Ruff had asked him to kill penalties, and although I can't definitively say he was great at it, in the first 10 games when he was seeing the most shorthanded ice, the team was killing penalties at just under a 90 percent clip. (And he didn't have to take a faceoff! Sorry X.) He had scored 134 goals in his first four seasons and had led the entire league in plus-minus in 06-07. I think he had earned the increased ice time. Why it went down so much almost immediately after scoring that 30th goal, I don't know. But only seven more times the rest of the year did he get 19 minutes of ice time or more. He scored only eight times before getting hurt. Chicken or egg, it's open to debate. Now, if you have to earn your ice time under brilliant Lindy Ruff, please explain these even strength ice time numbers for last season: 14:02 Hecht 13:21 Pominville 12:58 Stafford 12:46 Vanek 11:56 Gaustad 11:42 PFC MacArthur Vanek is a star. He could be our superstar. He has to play superstar minutes. It's time that Ruff stopped dicking him around.
nobody Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 It sounds so tempting -- four first rounders! They're not worth much in the short term, unless Darcy had leveraged them for a player. That was my thinking also. Darcy would have had to use those picks as trade for existing players or to trade up in the draft to make not keeping Vanek worthwhile. Now, if you have to earn your ice time under brilliant Lindy Ruff, please explain these even strength ice time numbers for last season: 14:02 Hecht 13:21 Pominville 12:58 Stafford 12:46 Vanek 11:56 Gaustad 11:42 PFC MacArthur Vanek is a star. He could be our superstar. He has to play superstar minutes. It's time that Ruff stopped dicking him around. Definitely an issue with Ruff in my book. Vanek plays better the more he plays; like many of the top players in the league. Someone should do an analysis to see how the team does when Hecht plays less.
SteamRoller72 Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 Should we have taken the 5 first rounders and run? How good is he? Compared to Crosby, Datsuk, Zetterberg or Ovechkin? Can he lead this team to the promised land eventunally? You like or dislike him? I think he is a really good player, but I wish we had kept Campbell and let Vanek go, if that was possible. He isn't a super star, IMO, just a very good player who will help us win but won't be a dominate player. Thomas Vanek is my favorite Buffalo Sabre by a landslide margin. That being said, I would have taken the 5 1st round picks and ran. He is in the top 5 powerplay forwards in hockey. His style on and off the ice reminds me of Jari Kurri...smooth, quiet guy and deadly on the PP with those soft hands. How many dominant players are there in hockey? 3...5...maybe 7 total? Do you consider Joe Thornton, Eric Staal or Ryan Getzlaf dominant? I don't. Great players yes, but not dominant. Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin and Lidstrom are my 4 dominant guys. Add in Luongo and Broduer if you're counting goalies for a total of 6 in the whole NHL. Vanek is in the second tier including guys like Getzlaf, Staal, Zetterberg, Iginla and Nash...etc.
That Aud Smell Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 for my money, superstars are elite players. vanek's not elite, and it seems unlikely that he will become elite. that said, i think there's only a handful of elite players in the league -- crosby, malkin, ovechkin, datsyuk, lidstrom, and a small clutch of others; the sabres are hardly the only team in the league that lacks one on their roster. still, there should be no argument that vanek is a "great" player, a guy who is a durable sniper and can therefore be an absolute stud on your first line.
nfreeman Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 I agree with you on Point 2. But we wouldn't have gotten Edmonton 2007 first-rounder. :) It sounds so tempting -- four first rounders! They're not worth much in the short term, unless Darcy had leveraged them for a player. As for Point 5, Vanek had 30 goals through 24 games last year and was a plus player. He was to that point in the season more than half the time getting 19, 20, 21 minutes and more of ice time. Ruff had asked him to kill penalties, and although I can't definitively say he was great at it, in the first 10 games when he was seeing the most shorthanded ice, the team was killing penalties at just under a 90 percent clip. (And he didn't have to take a faceoff! Sorry X.) He had scored 134 goals in his first four seasons and had led the entire league in plus-minus in 06-07. I think he had earned the increased ice time. Why it went down so much almost immediately after scoring that 30th goal, I don't know. But only seven more times the rest of the year did he get 19 minutes of ice time or more. He scored only eight times before getting hurt. Chicken or egg, it's open to debate. Now, if you have to earn your ice time under brilliant Lindy Ruff, please explain these even strength ice time numbers for last season: 14:02 Hecht 13:21 Pominville 12:58 Stafford 12:46 Vanek 11:56 Gaustad 11:42 PFC MacArthur Vanek is a star. He could be our superstar. He has to play superstar minutes. It's time that Ruff stopped dicking him around. Another very good post. Like Vanek, the potential is in you, but you need someone hounding you relentlessly to bring it out.
X. Benedict Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 Another very good post. Like Vanek, the potential is in you, but you need someone hounding you relentlessly to bring it out. he demoted the General to E-3 ..... that's a serious pay downgrade.
jad1 Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 I agree with you on Point 2. But we wouldn't have gotten Edmonton 2007 first-rounder. :) It sounds so tempting -- four first rounders! They're not worth much in the short term, unless Darcy had leveraged them for a player. As for Point 5, Vanek had 30 goals through 24 games last year and was a plus player. He was to that point in the season more than half the time getting 19, 20, 21 minutes and more of ice time. Ruff had asked him to kill penalties, and although I can't definitively say he was great at it, in the first 10 games when he was seeing the most shorthanded ice, the team was killing penalties at just under a 90 percent clip. (And he didn't have to take a faceoff! Sorry X.) He had scored 134 goals in his first four seasons and had led the entire league in plus-minus in 06-07. I think he had earned the increased ice time. Why it went down so much almost immediately after scoring that 30th goal, I don't know. But only seven more times the rest of the year did he get 19 minutes of ice time or more. He scored only eight times before getting hurt. Chicken or egg, it's open to debate. Now, if you have to earn your ice time under brilliant Lindy Ruff, please explain these even strength ice time numbers for last season: 14:02 Hecht 13:21 Pominville 12:58 Stafford 12:46 Vanek 11:56 Gaustad 11:42 PFC MacArthur Vanek is a star. He could be our superstar. He has to play superstar minutes. It's time that Ruff stopped dicking him around. Well there was Vanek's injury, and the question of whether he was rushed back or not. Other than that, Vanek has struggled against opponent's checking lines, and has never really finished a season strong (his playoff ppg are on par with Max's). He tends to score in spurts, and has long stretches of inactivity. In short, he's a young, talented player who struggles agaisnt top defenders and seems to hit a wall late in the season and in the playoffs. He scores, but the games he dominates are few and far between. On many nights, he's not the best player on the ice. The ice time reflects that.
SwampD Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 Here's my 2 cents: 1. We'll never know whether the Sabres could've signed Vanek to a better contract had they been more proactive. Bucky seems sure of it, but OTOH I listened to an interview with Vanek's agent in which he said pretty definitively that their intention was to try to get an offer sheet, which is exactly what happened. Of course, the agent could've been saying that because (i) it made the agent look smart and (ii) it helped the Sabres, who had just committed a huge amount of cash to Vanek. 2. I would much rather have kept Vanek than taken 4 first-round picks. Edmonton's first-rounder in 2007 (#6 in the draft) was Sam Gagner, who looks like a nice player and had 13 goals in his 1st year and 16 in his 2nd. With Vanek, Edmonton might have finished a few slots higher, resulting in a worse draft pick. No one picked near Gagner has had much of an impact in the NHL yet. Edmonton also had, via trades, the #15 and #21 picks that year -- not sure if those would've gone to the Sabres as compensation, or whether it would've been Edmonton's "natural" first-rounder for 4 years in a row. Either way, the guys they picked -- Alex Plante and Riley Nash -- aren't going to make anyone forget Vanek. In 2008, coincidentally enough, Edmonton originally had the 13th pick, which they traded to LA, who then traded it to Buffalo, who picked Myers. Edmonton also had #22 via trade and picked Jordan Eberle, who played in juniors last year. Bottom line on first-rounders is that it is a huge crapshoot and unless you are going to get top-3 picks, I think it's crazy to give up a guy like Vanek. 3. Vanek's game reminds me most of Phil Esposito's. Not the best skater, but phenomenal hands, a big body, and a great talent for "posting up" and scoring goals in front of the net. Esposito scored 23, 27, 21 and 35 goals in his 1st 4 full NHL seasons, before getting traded to Boston and producing 35, 49, 43, 76, 66, 55, 68, and 61 goals. 4. Vanek has a different game from Ovechkin and Crosby (and Zetterberg and Datsyuk), but he can develop into a player that is close to their level. In the first few months of last season, he was the best player on the ice many nights. I can see Vanek reeling off a string of 45-to-60 goal seasons for the Sabres. 5. Just so PAFan's BS doesn't go unchallenged: Vanek will get more ice time when he earns it. When he does, his scoring numbers will improve. I agree with everything in this post except number 5. There is sending a message, and there is trying to win a game. And it's not the amount of time that bothers me, because like X.B. said(I think it was him), Vanek's minutes are harder minutes. But he isn't on the ice at crucial times. I find it very frustrating.
Stoner Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 Another very good post. Like Vanek, the potential is in you, but you need someone hounding you relentlessly to bring it out. ,,|,,
wonderbread Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 ,,|,, classic! It took me about 20 seconds before I caught it.
VansTheMans Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 Points I agree with: I've liked Vanek since college and was glad the Sabres drafted him. I'm quite happy with him as a Sabre. He still needs to take on more of a leadership role on the ice and Lindy still needs to give him more chances. Even after 4 years, I still think the jury's out on Vanek. He is not in the same league as Ovechkin, Crosby, Datsyuk, Malkin, and Zetterberg. Can he get there? Maybe. Vanek is a goal scorer, he's not a playmaker and anyone who thinks that's his role doesn't get what he's here for. Vanek still seems to be adjusting to facing checking lines and top pair defenseman, and even with that plus an injury shortened season, he put up 40 goals. I think Vanek can become a super star if super star means a guy who faces tons of defensive pressure and still puts up tons of points. His defensive game has improved a lot, but he still sometimes does not hustle back on the backcheck and could definitely improve his defensive game. As much as Ruff and Vanek don't seem to get along, I think Ruff is good for Vanek and his tough love has made Vanek a better player over the last four years, especially as a two way player. I think there is still a lot more room for improvement for Vanek even considering he's a 40 goal scorer. 4. Vanek has a different game from Ovechkin and Crosby (and Zetterberg and Datsyuk), but he can develop into a player that is close to their level. In the first few months of last season, he was the best player on the ice many nights. I can see Vanek reeling off a string of 45-to-60 goal seasons for the Sabres. Vanek can evolve his role beyond just "goal scorer", and mold himself into a complete dominate two way player. He has made strides over the past few seasons to become just that. The first 20 games of last season he was simply phenomenal; he was stripping pucks, leading rushes, scoring goals (short handed, power play and even strength) and overall, he was looking like a genuine stud. In the first part of the season, very few players in the league were outplaying Vanek. It was in that early part of the season I think we saw the true potential of Vanek. The summer before this past season, Vanek went through a rigorous workout regimen. He aimed to increase strength and speed, two crucial aspects in today's NHL. And what do you know? All that hard work paid off. The benefits of training hard in the offseason were clearly visible when watching Vanek play. I hope Vanek continues to train every summer, increasing his strength and speed even further. He needs to continue working hard, earn more ice time and put forth a legitimate effort on the backcheck every night. If he does those things, he will be a complete dominating player. I do not think he'll ever have the playmaking ability of Datysuk or Malkin; that's not where his natural ability lies. He is a raw goal scorer, and there is certainly no shame in that. I hope in time, Vanek earns the trust of the coaching staff and vice versa. When that time approaches, perhaps then Vanek will feel more comfortable assuming a leadership role in the locker room. I applaud Ruff for demanding the best out of Vanek, but Ruff needs to walk a fine line with him. He's worked hard thus far and has improved his defensive game, clearly demonstrating hunger to earn more ice time. Lindy should give Vanek something to nibble on this season. If given a bite, perhaps Vanek will repay by offering the Sabres the whole deal: clutch goals, leadership and dominating two way play.
nobody Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 The summer before this past season, Vanek went through a rigorous workout regimen. He aimed to increase strength and speed, two crucial aspects in today's NHL. And what do you know? All that hard work paid off. The benefits of training hard in the offseason were clearly visible when watching Vanek play. I hope Vanek continues to train every summer, increasing his strength and speed even further. He needs to continue working hard, earn more ice time and put forth a legitimate effort on the backcheck every night. If he does those things, he will be a complete dominating player. Let's hope that some of his teammates decided to head to Minnesota (or Austria) this summer to train with him.
VansTheMans Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 Let's hope that some of his teammates decided to head to Minnesota (or Austria) this summer to train with him. He does the majority of his training in Minnesota I believe. Austria is where he usually vacations. Don't ask how I know. :blush:
nobody Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 He does the majority of his training in Minnesota I believe. Austria is where he usually vacations. Don't ask how I know. :blush: You obviously are a www.thomasvanek.at devotee.
inkman Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 You obviously are a www.thomasvanek.at devotee. Or Vanek's man bitch...
wonderbread Posted July 14, 2009 Report Posted July 14, 2009 "I LOVE THOMAS VANEK I SO WANT TO MARRY HIM. I DO I DO I DO!!!" was that you Vans the man.
Stoner Posted July 15, 2009 Report Posted July 15, 2009 "I LOVE THOMAS VANEK I SO WANT TO MARRY HIM. I DO I DO I DO!!!" was that you Vans the man. If that Van's a rockin'...
VansTheMans Posted July 15, 2009 Report Posted July 15, 2009 Nah, that wasn't me. I checked out that www.thomasvanek.at when someone posted the interview excerpt the other day. I wanted to check out the entire interview, so get the whole context of the quote regarding Lindy Ruff.
R_Dudley Posted July 15, 2009 Report Posted July 15, 2009 1. 5 first rounders .... No for all the reasons other's stated about the crap shoot of finding a player with his talent 2. Is he as good as OV,Sid,Dats,Zets, Malk.... Peer to peer skill with those players No, As good on his team as they are for theirs-Yes. I agree with what allot of others have pointed out about his skating and style however I also agree he is still evolving as a player and still has more upside left in fact IMO more then OV, Sid, Dats, Zet, I think they are already performing at their peaks but not Malkin(if they kid learned to use that body better) 3. Can he lead this team to the promised land eventually, IMO-Yes he wants to win and he has already played parts in helping his teams win at other levels and he has shown he can takeover/change games on his own when he get's hot. 4. Yes I like him, He has intelligent thoughtful responses, he has self scrutinized his game and made attempts/strides to improve shortcomings and in fact he looks allot like my Nephew. Last someone said this in another thread get him a true No1 center and we have us a top 5 center/winger combination as good as any teams we face.
spndnchz Posted July 15, 2009 Report Posted July 15, 2009 IMO, we are questioning his drive ON the ice, not off. Personally, I'll be his bitch, although his wife is cuter.
inkman Posted July 15, 2009 Report Posted July 15, 2009 ...although his wife is cuter. Where's the self-confidence, chz? :(
tom webster Posted July 15, 2009 Report Posted July 15, 2009 Where's the self-confidence, chz? :( I took her line to me she was more interested in his wife then him.
SwampD Posted July 15, 2009 Report Posted July 15, 2009 I took her line to me she was more interested in his wife then him. :lol:
inkman Posted July 15, 2009 Report Posted July 15, 2009 I took her line to me she was more interested in his wife then him. Meh...I'll call it a push.
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