Jay Mckee to the Pens....

[Stoner]

What exactly has this front office destroyed? Have the Sabres EVER brought in a big-name free agent, under any GM?

 

You are right that DR generally has to trade to bring in quality players, but I suspect the reasons are not DR and LQ. They are (i) they don't have room in the budget to pay what it costs to bring them in as free agents and (ii) Buffalo is an undesirable city compared with just about every other alternative in the NHL.

 

(i) DeLuca speaks for me, as always. But the salary cap was supposed to level the competitive playing field. To do that, though, your owner has to be willing to pony up, and not just when he thinks your close to a Cup. IMHO with Darcy it's more of a philosophical position that he doesn't do FA. Didn't he say he wouldn't "burn money" even if he was authorized to do so? (ii) But these guys don't live in the city, the vast majority of them anyway, and if they do it's in a nice area. You're making millions, your living in a nice suburb like Clarence. Your kids go to good schools. Quality of life-wise, how is living in a suburb of Buffalo that different than living in a suburb of Detroit? As for weather, it's fall and winter in the US. How many NHL cities have nice weather? During the summer, these guys have the means to summer anywhere they want.

[carpandean]

(ii) But these guys don't live in the city, the vast majority of them anyway, and if they do it's in a nice area. You're making millions, your living in a nice suburb like Clarence. Your kids go to good schools. Quality of life-wise, how is living in a suburb of Buffalo that different than living in a suburb of Detroit? As for weather, it's fall and winter in the US.

You know all of this and some players may bother to check into it, but I'm guessing that a lot of players have a different perception of what life in Buffalo is like. Look at how surprised Rivet was about the area. He was traded, so he had no choice. He asked other players on his new team and felt a little better, then got here and felt even better. Are UFAs really going to do all of that when they have another offer on the table from a team in a big city?

 

As for Detroit, they set the bar for organizations. They've built something special over several decades that all teams should aspire to. So, in that case (as opposed to many others), it most likely is primarily about comparing front offices.

[nfreeman]

"Room in the budget" is the biggest load of crap spewed on this board. The Sabres are going into this season with about a $50 million dollar budget. Not to far off from the NHL cap. Let's not blame the budget because Regier has completely mishandled the budget he was allotted.

 

And let's also not blame the City or region. If you have a well run organization it doesn't matter what city it is in. Buffalo may not be near the top of the list for US cities, it sure as hell is at the top of NHL cities.

The budget is what it is. You can't pretend it doesn't exist and doesn't limit what Darcy can do. I agree that Darcy has made some bad choices with the budget he was given, but I also think he wasn't given a free hand with that budget until last summer.

 

And Buffalo having a good fan base isn't the same thing as being an attractive destination for FAs.

 

(i) DeLuca speaks for me, as always. But the salary cap was supposed to level the competitive playing field. To do that, though, your owner has to be willing to pony up, and not just when he thinks your close to a Cup. IMHO with Darcy it's more of a philosophical position that he doesn't do FA. Didn't he say he wouldn't "burn money" even if he was authorized to do so? (ii) But these guys don't live in the city, the vast majority of them anyway, and if they do it's in a nice area. You're making millions, your living in a nice suburb like Clarence. Your kids go to good schools. Quality of life-wise, how is living in a suburb of Buffalo that different than living in a suburb of Detroit? As for weather, it's fall and winter in the US. How many NHL cities have nice weather? During the summer, these guys have the means to summer anywhere they want.

I agree that Darcy doesn't go after the big-name UFAs as a general principle. It's a principle grounded in the fact that he has limited resources to work with. He believes that every dollar you overpay for Scott Gomez or Marian Gaborik is a dollar you don't have to spend elsewhere. This seems pretty logical to me.

 

As for the differences between cities, are you (and DeLuca) seriously disputing the fact that wealthy young men (and their wives) would rather live in most of the other NHL cities than live in Buffalo?

[Stoner]

I agree that Darcy doesn't go after the big-name UFAs as a general principle. It's a principle grounded in the fact that he has limited resources to work with.

 

But didn't we get a good clue about Darcy's philosophy when he said he wouldn't buy out a contract EVEN IF HE COULD. I took that to mean even if he were GM on Broadway, with more resources to work with, he still wouldn't do it. Does this mean as GM of the Rump Rangers, he still wouldn't be active on July 1? I don't know.

 

As for the differences between cities, are you (and DeLuca) seriously disputing the fact that wealthy young men (and their wives) would rather live in most of the other NHL cities than live in Buffalo?

 

That might be their preference before all other factors are considered. Would the player rather live in Miami and have virtually zero chance of winning a Cup or go to Ottawa, where your chance would be higher? (OK, let's pretend we're having this discussion a few years ago.) We're really only talking, in this era of player movement, a relatively few number of years living in a city anyway. Could they tolerate Buffalo or Columbus for a few years if the money was right? If the coach was right? If the system was right? If the organization was known to be committed to winning?

 

I vowed not to get into this again, because we can't really know what motivates another person. But it's too much fun pretending to be a millionaire athlete with a hot wife (and, of course, no kids). Where to bang her? On the kitchen table? On the pool table? On the workshop bench? Where to live? Where to live? Hmmmm...

[nfreeman]

But didn't we get a good clue about Darcy's philosophy when he said he wouldn't buy out a contract EVEN IF HE COULD. I took that to mean even if he were GM on Broadway, with more resources to work with, he still wouldn't do it. Does this mean as GM of the Rump Rangers, he still wouldn't be active on July 1? I don't know.

Buyouts still create dead cap space. So if Darcy were GM of the Rangers and had the cash to overpay for Gomez or Redden, I think he meant that he still wouldn't do so, because it still ends up handicapping what he could do elsewhere.

 

 

That might be their preference before all other factors are considered. Would the player rather live in Miami and have virtually zero chance of winning a Cup or go to Ottawa, where your chance would be higher? (OK, let's pretend we're having this discussion a few years ago.) We're really only talking, in this era of player movement, a relatively few number of years living in a city anyway. Could they tolerate Buffalo or Columbus for a few years if the money was right? If the coach was right? If the system was right? If the organization was known to be committed to winning?

 

I vowed not to get into this again, because we can't really know what motivates another person. But it's too much fun pretending to be a millionaire athlete with a hot wife (and, of course, no kids). Where to bang her? On the kitchen table? On the pool table? On the workshop bench? Where to live? Where to live? Hmmmm...

Has Ottawa ever brought in a big-name UFA? And while your point about Miami is fair, I think more apt comparables would be cities like Boston, NYC, Philly, Washington, Chicago, Denver, Dallas, San Jose, Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, Anaheim, etc. -- which have both good hockey organizations and appealing lifestyle options.

[Stoner]

Has Ottawa ever brought in a big-name UFA? And while your point about Miami is fair, I think more apt comparables would be cities like Boston, NYC, Philly, Washington, Chicago, Denver, Dallas, San Jose, Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, Anaheim, etc. -- which have both good hockey organizations and appealing lifestyle options.

 

Derelecticious.

[VansTheMans]

Devils advocate:

 

Do you think Detroit is a desirable city to live in?

[X. Benedict]

Devils advocate:

 

Do you think Detroit is a desirable city to live in?Grosse Point

 

Depends what you think of city limits.

Does Amherst count as Buffalo and Grosse Point count as Detriot?

[nfreeman]

Devils advocate:

 

Do you think Detroit is a desirable city to live in?

A fair question. I think Detroit, all in all, is probably a more attractive city than Buffalo, both within city limits and including all suburbs. With roughly 5x Buffalo's population, it is going to have much greater economic opportunities, better restaurants, better choices of schools (public and private), more music/arts/cultural options, etc.

 

Having said that, I would guess that the quality-of-life difference between Buffalo and Detroit isn't what drives a hockey player's decision to prefer Detroit over Buffalo. That decision would be driven by (i) ability to pay top dollar for contracts, which Detroit beats Buffalo in due to market size and (ii) great organization with huge amount of playoff success over the past 15 years or so. I don't think there's anything anyone can do about the first factor. I would love to see the Sabres develop into the kind of organization that could compete on the 2nd factor. At the same time, though, Detroit's the only franchise that has gotten to that level, so I don't think the Sabres can be criticized too harshly for not getting there.

[deluca67]

The budget is what it is. You can't pretend it doesn't exist and doesn't limit what Darcy can do. I agree that Darcy has made some bad choices with the budget he was given, but I also think he wasn't given a free hand with that budget until last summer.

 

And Buffalo having a good fan base isn't the same thing as being an attractive destination for FAs.

I agree that Darcy doesn't go after the big-name UFAs as a general principle. It's a principle grounded in the fact that he has limited resources to work with. He believes that every dollar you overpay for Scott Gomez or Marian Gaborik is a dollar you don't have to spend on Tim Connolly. This seems pretty logical to me.

 

As for the differences between cities, are you (and DeLuca) seriously disputing the fact that wealthy young men (and their wives) would rather live in most of the other NHL cities than live in Buffalo?

Who 's pretending that the "budget" "doesn't exist?" It's about $50 million. Having the extra $6 million or so to spend isn't going to undo the damage Regier has done to the original $50 mil budget. There is no excuse for this team to have missed the playoffs the past two seasons. There is no amount of money you can give Regier that can cover his faults. The NHL as a sport and as a business rewards those teams that are aggressive. Posters can say what you want about a team like the Rangers. The Rangers haven't missed the playoffs the past two seasons. Even a team like Tampa can say "yah we suck, but we have a ring."

 

btw, I corrected your post.

[...]

Depends what you think of city limits.

Does Amherst count as Buffalo and Grosse Point count as Detriot?

 

If this were the early 1900's, then being traded to Buffalo would be akin to being traded to Heaven (minus the death part).

 

I doubt that in most hockey towns the majority of the players live in the city proper. Detroit has a far worse reputation for crime, for example, than Buffalo. Most well-to-do people do not live in the cities, but in the 'burbs.

 

I think if anything the problem with Buffalo's reputation would have to do with it never winning a Stanley Cup or a Super Bowl, the Weather Channel likes to present Buffalo as the North Pole South, and that our "market" is "small".

 

Aside from the lame downtown area, WNY has some very attractive features you don't see in most hockey markets. The prime feature would be the cost-of-living. It wouldn't really take too much to sell a player on the prospects of the area - at least a player who is level-headed.

 

So, I think nfreeman has nailed it down: the organization has made its own bed. If the Sabres were run like the Red Wings, or Pittsburgh for that matter, then being traded here, or negotiating a contract to play here, wouldn't cause quite the amount of anxiety it presently seems to in players.

[VansTheMans]

So, I think nfreeman has nailed it down: the organization has made its own bed. If the Sabres were run like the Red Wings, or Pittsburgh for that matter, then being traded here, or negotiating a contract to play here, wouldn't cause quite the amount of anxiety it presently seems to in players.

 

Yup, I agree.

 

That's why I brought up Detroit. The city itself has little to do with a player's desire to play there; 75% of it lies with the management of the team.

[carpandean]

So, I think nfreeman has nailed it down: the organization has made its own bed. If the Sabres were run like the Red Wings, or Pittsburgh for that matter, then being traded here, or negotiating a contract to play here, wouldn't cause quite the amount of anxiety it presently seems to in players.

I'll give you the Red Wings. They are the model franchise right now. If the Sabres were to (successfully) model themselves after Detroit, we'd all be happy. Of course, they didn't do that overnight either, so we would have to wait a while.

 

In Pittsburgh, on the other hand, it's not so much how they are run as where they are now (that will make more sense in a second.) They were terrible for a long time to get two first overall (Crosby and Fleury) and two second overall (Malkin and Staal) picks. In the Crosby lottery they also got lucky, since we had the same number of balls. You would have to have awful management to not build a good team around that core and they almost did, sitting out of the playoffs and behind us for much of the season. Now, I will give them credit for acquiring Kunitz and Guerin at the deadline and, perhaps, the new coach. Of course, they chose that coach to begin with and put wingers like Satan around Crosby and Malkin to start the season. They won the cup and you can't take that away from them, but I'm far from convinced that they are an organization that you should model yourself after or even could without a long stint of finishing last. Even then, what's the chances that the #1 or #2 overall picks will be of Crosby or Malkin's talent?

[spndnchz]

I'll give you the Red Wings. They are the model franchise right now. If the Sabres were to (successfully) model themselves after Detroit, we'd all be happy. Of course, they didn't do that overnight either, so we would have to wait a while.

 

In Pittsburgh, on the other hand, it's not so much how they are run as where they are now (that will make more sense in a second.) They were terrible for a long time to get two first overall (Crosby and Fleury) and two second overall (Malkin and Staal) picks. In the Crosby lottery they also got lucky, since we had the same number of balls. You would have to have awful management to not build a good team around that core and they almost did, sitting out of the playoffs and behind us for much of the season. Now, I will give them credit for acquiring Kunitz and Guerin at the deadline and, perhaps, the new coach. Of course, they chose that coach to begin with and put wingers like Satan around Crosby and Malkin to start the season. They won the cup and you can't take that away from them, but I'm far from convinced that they are an organization that you should model yourself after or even could without a long stint of finishing last. Even then, what's the chances that the #1 or #2 overall picks will be of Crosby or Malkin's talent?

The "perfect storm"?

[...]

I'll give you the Red Wings. They are the model franchise right now. If the Sabres were to (successfully) model themselves after Detroit, we'd all be happy. Of course, they didn't do that overnight either, so we would have to wait a while.

 

In Pittsburgh, on the other hand, it's not so much how they are run as where they are now (that will make more sense in a second.) They were terrible for a long time to get two first overall (Crosby and Fleury) and two second overall (Malkin and Staal) picks. In the Crosby lottery they also got lucky, since we had the same number of balls. You would have to have awful management to not build a good team around that core and they almost did, sitting out of the playoffs and behind us for much of the season. Now, I will give them credit for acquiring Kunitz and Guerin at the deadline and, perhaps, the new coach. Of course, they chose that coach to begin with and put wingers like Satan around Crosby and Malkin to start the season. They won the cup and you can't take that away from them, but I'm far from convinced that they are an organization that you should model yourself after or even could without a long stint of finishing last. Even then, what's the chances that the #1 or #2 overall picks will be of Crosby or Malkin's talent?

 

How do you think Pittsburgh will do next season?

[nfreeman]

Who 's pretending that the "budget" "doesn't exist?" It's about $50 million. Having the extra $6 million or so to spend isn't going to undo the damage Regier has done to the original $50 mil budget. There is no excuse for this team to have missed the playoffs the past two seasons. There is no amount of money you can give Regier that can cover his faults. The NHL as a sport and as a business rewards those teams that are aggressive. Posters can say what you want about a team like the Rangers. The Rangers haven't missed the playoffs the past two seasons. Even a team like Tampa can say "yah we suck, but we have a ring."

 

btw, I corrected your post.

If you don't think Drury and Briere leaving ripped the guts out of the team, and thus explains the failure to make the playoffs in 07-08, I don't know what to say. If you want to say there is no excuse for allowing that to happen, I agree, but that's an ownership issue, not a Darcy issue.

 

As for rewarding aggressive teams -- wasn't Tampa pretty aggressive last summer? And the Rangers? What about Dallas? Colorado?

 

Teams that win consistently are those that build through the draft and supplement with smart, effective trades and FA signings. That's the kind of team Darcy wants to have. It's the kind of team Darcy successfully built and then had to watch get destroyed by his bosses.

[Sabre Dance]

How do you think Pittsburgh will do next season?

 

 

Even if they finish in last place (doubtful but possible), they can console themselves by gazing at their Stanley Cup rings.

I don't point to the Penguins organization and say "Let's model ourselves after them!" I do say, Ray Shero made some moves that enabled the team to take that one step higher that they missed out on in 2007-2008. The moves that Shero made could easily have backfired (especially changing coaches mid-season). But, at least Shero TRIED to make the team better. I think all that any Sabres' fan really wants is at least an attempt by the FO to make things better. Hoping that your young players "mature" and begin playing 25% better than last season does not, to my mind, look like the same kind of effort that Shero (or Jim Rutherford in Carolina) made to improve their teams. Don't try to model the franchise after anyone else - just don't be afraid to make a move.

[stenbaro]

If you don't think Drury and Briere leaving ripped the guts out of the team, and thus explains the failure to make the playoffs in 07-08, I don't know what to say. If you want to say there is no excuse for allowing that to happen, I agree, but that's an ownership issue, not a Darcy issue.

 

As for rewarding aggressive teams -- wasn't Tampa pretty aggressive last summer? And the Rangers? What about Dallas? Colorado?

 

Teams that win consistently are those that build through the draft and supplement with smart, effective trades and FA signings. That's the kind of team Darcy wants to have. It's the kind of team Darcy successfully built and then had to watch get destroyed by his bosses.

Thats the beginning and the end of this version and any one associated with that team..Until they sever all ties they will have those nonmoves or whatever you want to call them around their necks...Those associated with those dumbass decisions wont recover from them....Ridicule all you want those were 2 of the dumbest decisions in sports history as far as Buffalo is concerned....

[RayFinkle]

The 800k deal means that he isn't expected by any GM to be a star player next year.

 

But it also means that we wouldn't have been out much if we made McKee our 7th defenseman this year.

 

Just seems odd to me.

 

Steve Montador for 1.05 million

 

or

 

Jay McKee for 800,000

 

I'll take McKee everytime without exception.

[X. Benedict]

Just seems odd to me.

 

Steve Montador for 1.05 million

 

or

 

Jay McKee for 800,000

 

I'll take McKee everytime without exception.

 

I think you'll appreciate Montador if you appreciated McKee.

McKee still plays with heart but he isn't the player that left after 2006.

[wonderbread]

Just seems odd to me.

 

Steve Montador for 1.05 million

 

or

 

Jay McKee for 800,000

 

I'll take McKee everytime without exception.

 

 

Montador is actually making 1.55.

[deluca67]

If you don't think Drury and Briere leaving ripped the guts out of the team, and thus explains the failure to make the playoffs in 07-08, I don't know what to say. If you want to say there is no excuse for allowing that to happen, I agree, but that's an ownership issue, not a Darcy issue.

 

As for rewarding aggressive teams -- wasn't Tampa pretty aggressive last summer? And the Rangers? What about Dallas? Colorado?

 

Teams that win consistently are those that build through the draft and supplement with smart, effective trades and FA signings. That's the kind of team Darcy wants to have. It's the kind of team Darcy successfully built and then had to watch get destroyed by his bosses.

All four teams you mentioned have Stanley Cups. The Rangers made the playoffs. The other three have many issues which caused them to miss. Being aggressive in free agency was not one them. It is better to be aggressive and miss than it is to be passive and let it happen.

 

It's not that Drury and Briere left that hurt this team. It's that there front office apparently wasn't prepared and didn't have a Plan B in place in case they did. Again, as so many times in the past, this front office faced adversity and failed to react appropriately. Peca, Hasek and fax machines. Regier has a long history of blunders that greatly outweighs the positives he has done while GM of the Sabres.

 

They were willing to pay Grier and he decided to go to San Jose. What happened to that money? Why didn't they use that money to go after a player similar to Grier if they recognized that they need what he brought. The decided to keep Drury over Briere. Drury left, what happened to that money? Why didn't they turn around in free agency and look for a player with similar qualities? Did Regier really think Hecht had those qualities? If he did, add that to the long list of reasons Regier should be fired immediately.

 

As much as people want to claim that ownership is low balling Regier the facts prove it's not the case. This team is not spending $40 million out of a $56 mil cap. They spend pretty close to cap. They will be over $50 mil this year.

[X. Benedict]

Montador is actually making 1.55.

 

It's the $500,000 "he has a right-handed shot" bonus. ;)

[RayFinkle]

I think you'll appreciate Montador if you appreciated McKee.

McKee still plays with heart but he isn't the player that left after 2006.

 

I think the TBD thread on Monator said it best:

 

"I better not run Miller or else I'll have to tire myself out pummeling Montador."

[nfreeman]

All four teams you mentioned have Stanley Cups. The Rangers made the playoffs. The other three have many issues which caused them to miss. Being aggressive in free agency was not one them. It is better to be aggressive and miss than it is to be passive and let it happen.

 

It's not that Drury and Briere left that hurt this team. It's that there front office apparently wasn't prepared and didn't have a Plan B in place in case they did. Again, as so many times in the past, this front office faced adversity and failed to react appropriately. Peca, Hasek and fax machines. Regier has a long history of blunders that greatly outweighs the positives he has done while GM of the Sabres.

 

They were willing to pay Grier and he decided to go to San Jose. What happened to that money? Why didn't they use that money to go after a player similar to Grier if they recognized that they need what he brought. The decided to keep Drury over Briere. Drury left, what happened to that money? Why didn't they turn around in free agency and look for a player with similar qualities? Did Regier really think Hecht had those qualities? If he did, add that to the long list of reasons Regier should be fired immediately.

 

As much as people want to claim that ownership is low balling Regier the facts prove it's not the case. This team is not spending $40 million out of a $56 mil cap. They spend pretty close to cap. They will be over $50 mil this year.

Being aggressive in free agency is exactly what screwed TB up last year. They made a bunch of dumb moves for the sake of chasing headlines and came nowhere close to creating a viable team. Arguably the same was true of Dallas' moves last year, esp. bringing in Avery, although to be fair losing Morrow was probably the biggest reason for their downfall.

 

I agree that the Hecht contract was a bad move and is fairly laid at Darcy's feet. However, you seem determined to hold him accountable not only for Grier, Drury and Briere, but for the team's failure to replace them in free agency. But if DR's bosses were unwilling to pay to keep those guys, why on earth would they be willing to pay for replacements?

 

And, for the record, I've not said that ownership is low-balling DR. What I have said is that when the team's payroll is in the bottom 3rd of the NHL -- and that doesn't even take into account the extra dollars the wealthier teams are able to spend by buyouts and sending guys to the minors -- a team has much less margin for error. When DR makes mistakes, as he seems to have done with Hecht and Pommer (and it's probably fair to blame him for Tallinder as well), it's more difficult for the Sabres to recover than it is for Philly or the Rangers. However, those mistakes weren't nearly as crippling as the ones foisted on him from above, which were much harder to recover from.