deluca67 Posted June 7, 2009 Author Report Posted June 7, 2009 I think its pretty obvious this team needs a top flight defenseman or two. It wasn't a Chris Neil typ player last night that shut down Malkin and Crosby It was the machine known as the Detroit Red Wings. You have missed a major point as some others have. There are no "top flight" defensemen in the Sabres future. My intent with this thread was not to create fantasy scenarios. Chris Neil is a viable option that goes to addressing the Sabres most glaring problem. The lack of testicular fortitude. I am willing to listen to other options as long as they stay within the realm of possibility. Adding top priced talent does not fall within that realm. Neither does a roster purge freeing up cap space.
bob_sauve28 Posted June 7, 2009 Report Posted June 7, 2009 [/b]It was the machine known as the Detroit Red Wings. You have missed a major point as some others have. There are no "top flight" defensemen in the Sabres future. My intent with this thread was not to create fantasy scenarios. Chris Neil is a viable option that goes to addressing the Sabres most glaring problem. The lack of testicular fortitude. I am willing to listen to other options as long as they stay within the realm of possibility. Adding top priced talent does not fall within that realm. Neither does a roster purge freeing up cap space. Adding a tough player who hits well and stirs up trouble will not make them score goals at important times nor stop the other team from doing so. Did Pat LaFontain have "testicular fortitude"? I'm not sure, but he sure as hell could scored goals in bunches and that's what won games. Adding Chris Neil and arguing that he will address any real problem that gets this team going in right direction, to me, is a fantasy secenrio. Did the Rangers get better with that clown Avery in the line up? Yes, I suppose, but not for long. Talent, talent, talent is what wins. Get Pominville scoring, get Paille hitting and scoring, same with Stafford. Lets see what Sekera can do with more experience, same with Butler. But the fact is, we do not have a defenseman that can seriously stop Ottawa's top line and that's a big reason they beat us all the time. Neil won't solve that problem.
... Posted June 7, 2009 Report Posted June 7, 2009 I think Sabre fans have had the opporntunity to see Ottawa more than 8 times a year. I've seen more than enough of Chris Neil and I know I want, make that need, that type of player on this team. Who wouldn't feel more comfortable with this lineup with Neil, Rivet, Kaleta and Gaustad wearing the blue and gold every night. To your Ruff point. If Neil became a Sabre and started to be assimilated to the Sabres purse wearing Borg? At that point, I would be joining those who have been calling for Ruff's departure from the team. Hell yes. I'm with you 110% Deluca. I hate Neil, but upgrading to Neil from Peters would be an amazing kick in the ass for this team. Peters is a walking, talking illustration of one of the main problems with the Sabres. Having Neil in to replace Peters would be a positive statement. Then trade away Gerbe and someone else (or two) to get another forward with "a game" (any game, please) and who can bring that game every night - now we're talking a few serious roster moves that should resonate within the club. If the Sabres were to get Neil, and he were to "Sabreize" over the season, I, too, would completely and utterly get on the move Ruff bandwagon. But, IMHO, I think the problem is DR's "vision" of this team, or whomever's vision he is channelling. Neil is completely do-able. And he would be happy to stay in the northeasten corridor because then he wouldn't have to move his family. A trade or two which would include Gerbe and someone on the active roster ending in signing the aforementioned "got game" forward is also do-able.
sabresnutinphoenix Posted June 7, 2009 Report Posted June 7, 2009 I always thought it was Spezza, Heatley and Alfie that killed us.I'm sorry,... Chris Neil is not the answer. I kind of agree with you...But what is this team's answer?
sabresnutinphoenix Posted June 7, 2009 Report Posted June 7, 2009 Moreover, WHO REALLY BELIEVES THE SABRES WILL SIGN ANY FREE AGENTS?? :sick: :thumbdown: :wallbash:
red Posted June 8, 2009 Report Posted June 8, 2009 Neil would be the type of player I would agree with. Maybe they would finally let useless Peters go... What would be the cost for Cole?
billsrcursed Posted June 8, 2009 Report Posted June 8, 2009 Adding a tough player who hits well and stirs up trouble will not make them score goals at important times nor stop the other team from doing so. Did Pat LaFontain have "testicular fortitude"? I'm not sure, but he sure as hell could scored goals in bunches and that's what won games. Adding Chris Neil and arguing that he will address any real problem that gets this team going in right direction, to me, is a fantasy secenrio. Did the Rangers get better with that clown Avery in the line up? Yes, I suppose, but not for long. Talent, talent, talent is what wins. Get Pominville scoring, get Paille hitting and scoring, same with Stafford. Lets see what Sekera can do with more experience, same with Butler. But the fact is, we do not have a defenseman that can seriously stop Ottawa's top line and that's a big reason they beat us all the time. Neil won't solve that problem. I don't think the point is that adding Neil would generate goals on HIS part, but rather open up scoring chances for others. Deluca brought up an interesting scenerio that should be looked into; adding Neil to our top 6. Having Neil skating with, say, Vanek and Roy, would certainly open things up for those 2. I don't think Neil gets enough credit for his hockey awareness. Is he Malkin? No, but what he could do for his other linemates, along with what he could do for our locker room, especially at his price, is something the Sabres would be foolish not to look into. He would be an upgrade over SEVERAL current Sabres....
bob_sauve28 Posted June 8, 2009 Report Posted June 8, 2009 I don't think the point is that adding Neil would generate goals on HIS part, but rather open up scoring chances for others. Deluca brought up an interesting scenerio that should be looked into; adding Neil to our top 6. Having Neil skating with, say, Vanek and Roy, would certainly open things up for those 2. I don't think Neil gets enough credit for his hockey awareness. Is he Malkin? No, but what he could do for his other linemates, along with what he could do for our locker room, especially at his price, is something the Sabres would be foolish not to look into. He would be an upgrade over SEVERAL current Sabres.... I think Neil is a good player, so don't get me wrong there. I like him and all. But I don't think he really improves the team that much. Sure, I'd like to have him, but what would be the price? How much would you toss this guy? I bet he gets a pretty decent offer from some teams. I'm not tossing $3 million a year at him. Ya, at $2 million I'd take him, but he will get offered more than that I'm sure
jimiVbaby Posted June 9, 2009 Report Posted June 9, 2009 I think Neil is a good player, so don't get me wrong there. I like him and all. But I don't think he really improves the team that much. Sure, I'd like to have him, but what would be the price? How much would you toss this guy? I bet he gets a pretty decent offer from some teams. I'm not tossing $3 million a year at him. Ya, at $2 million I'd take him, but he will get offered more than that I'm sure And really, does he just make the team just a little more entertaining but still fighting for a playoff spot?
SabresFan526 Posted June 9, 2009 Report Posted June 9, 2009 Neil would be the type of player I would agree with. Maybe they would finally let useless Peters go... What would be the cost for Cole? Well, Cole signed a three year $12 million deal before 2006-2007. In the three seasons since signing that deal, his scoring total has gone down by about 10 points in each successive year, 61, 51, and 42. I don't think he's really lived up to that contract, but I don't think he's a bad player either. Edmonton was just an absolutely terrible situation for him. I don't think he's worth the $4 million/year and I'm not sure anyone will pay him that much on the open market. But, I could very easily see him signing for $3.5 million. I imagine Cole would likely sign for a short term deal as he wants to prove himself to get a bigger deal next summer, hence he is the perfect fit for Buffalo as Buffalo's not a big fan of long term deals especially for guys in their 30s. I could see him signing one year for $3.5 million or 2 years for $7.5 million. Just my take, which is why he'd be a perfect fit for Buffalo on the second line with Cole-Connolly-Pominville. The Sabres should do everything to go after Cole as I think he's affordable, realistic, and the right combination of toughness, grit, and scoring that Buffalo is desperately lacking. He's the perfect fit for Buffalo, almost too perfect, which is why it will never happen.
bob_sauve28 Posted June 9, 2009 Report Posted June 9, 2009 Well, Cole signed a three year $12 million deal before 2006-2007. In the three seasons since signing that deal, his scoring total has gone down by about 10 points in each successive year, 61, 51, and 42. I don't think he's really lived up to that contract, but I don't think he's a bad player either. Edmonton was just an absolutely terrible situation for him. I don't think he's worth the $4 million/year and I'm not sure anyone will pay him that much on the open market. But, I could very easily see him signing for $3.5 million. I imagine Cole would likely sign for a short term deal as he wants to prove himself to get a bigger deal next summer, hence he is the perfect fit for Buffalo as Buffalo's not a big fan of long term deals especially for guys in their 30s. I could see him signing one year for $3.5 million or 2 years for $7.5 million. Just my take, which is why he'd be a perfect fit for Buffalo on the second line with Cole-Connolly-Pominville. The Sabres should do everything to go after Cole as I think he's affordable, realistic, and the right combination of toughness, grit, and scoring that Buffalo is desperately lacking. He's the perfect fit for Buffalo, almost too perfect, which is why it will never happen. I just don't see forward as our problem. This team is lacking on defense. Who are our top defense pair?
spndnchz Posted June 9, 2009 Report Posted June 9, 2009 Well, Cole signed a three year $12 million deal before 2006-2007. In the three seasons since signing that deal, his scoring total has gone down by about 10 points in each successive year, 61, 51, and 42. I don't think he's really lived up to that contract, but I don't think he's a bad player either. Edmonton was just an absolutely terrible situation for him. I don't think he's worth the $4 million/year and I'm not sure anyone will pay him that much on the open market. But, I could very easily see him signing for $3.5 million. I imagine Cole would likely sign for a short term deal as he wants to prove himself to get a bigger deal next summer, hence he is the perfect fit for Buffalo as Buffalo's not a big fan of long term deals especially for guys in their 30s. I could see him signing one year for $3.5 million or 2 years for $7.5 million. Just my take, which is why he'd be a perfect fit for Buffalo on the second line with Cole-Connolly-Pominville. The Sabres should do everything to go after Cole as I think he's affordable, realistic, and the right combination of toughness, grit, and scoring that Buffalo is desperately lacking. He's the perfect fit for Buffalo, almost too perfect, which is why it will never happen. Can't afford it. who are you not signing. Seriously. No, seriously.
Calvin Posted June 9, 2009 Report Posted June 9, 2009 Hell yes. I'm with you 110% Deluca. I hate Neil, but upgrading to Neil from Peters would be an amazing kick in the ass for this team. Peters is a walking, talking illustration of one of the main problems with the Sabres. Having Neil in to replace Peters would be a positive statement. Then trade away Gerbe and someone else (or two) to get another forward with "a game" (any game, please) and who can bring that game every night - now we're talking a few serious roster moves that should resonate within the club. If the Sabres were to get Neil, and he were to "Sabreize" over the season, I, too, would completely and utterly get on the move Ruff bandwagon. But, IMHO, I think the problem is DR's "vision" of this team, or whomever's vision he is channelling. Neil is completely do-able. And he would be happy to stay in the northeasten corridor because then he wouldn't have to move his family. A trade or two which would include Gerbe and someone on the active roster ending in signing the aforementioned "got game" forward is also do-able. is there any particular reason you are so desperate to trade away Gerbe??
inkman Posted June 9, 2009 Report Posted June 9, 2009 is there any particular reason you are so desperate to trade away Gerbe?? Maybe because he's 4'6". Just sayin'
SabresFan526 Posted June 9, 2009 Report Posted June 9, 2009 Can't afford it. who are you not signing. Seriously. No, seriously. So, there's no way you can take on salary for Cole and just fit it under the salary cap without getting rid of someone else. The assumption that I'm making is that Teppo does not come back and that somehow you are able to trade one of Tallinder, Lydman, or Hecht to make that deal. At this moment, the Sabres have $46.5 million committed to 17 players. If you assume the salary cap is flat or slightly less, say $55 million, that leaves the Sabres with $9 million to spend to meet the 23 man maximum active roster. That's $9 million against 6 players. Also, we need to assume that the Sabres will likely not spend to the max cap, so let's target $51-$54 million as what the Sabres will spend. So, realistically, you are looking at $4 million for 6 players. My assumption is that Stafford will come in at $2.5 million, Sekera at $850K, and Kaleta, MacArthur, and Mancari all coming in at a combined $1.7 million. So, based on my numbers if the Sabres re-sign all of the RFAs, the new spend is $51.55 million. If you trade Tallinder or Lydman, that will get you down to $48.988 million or $48.675 million respectively in cap hit. If you re-sign Spacek, you can't sign Cole. If you don't re-sign Spacek and insert Tyler Myers into the top 6 next year, and assume $850K for him (rookie max) and Mike Weber's $750K cap hit, you can afford to bring in Cole at $3.5 million giving you a total cap hit of $53.75 million without Tallinder and Spacek next year and 23 players on the active roster. With the right moves, it's doable. However, I'm not sure I see it happening. By not re-signing Spacek you lose all offense coming from the blueline. I think Tallinder needs to go and they need to somehow find a way to trade him at the draft. If you do that, the question becomes can you afford to not re-sign Spacek and let the kids go through their growing pains on the blueline in order to go after an Erik Cole type player? If you don't bring back Tallinder and Spacek, you are looking at a top 7 of: Rivet-Butler Lydman-Sekera Weber-Myers/Paetsch The bottom pair really concerns me and likely the main reason why Tallinder will not be traded this year. Are the Sabres willing to make the sacrifices to go after a player like Erik Cole this offseason? Is Erik Cole more of a difference maker at forward than Spacek and Tallinder are on the blueline? I don't know, but I think Erik Cole would look really good in blue and gold.
shrader Posted June 9, 2009 Report Posted June 9, 2009 526, I think you're low balling Sekera a bit. Unless he accepts his QO, he'll probably end up with a multi-year deal that will be significantly more than 850K. I'm also assuming that Myers will have some sort of bonus in his deal that will bump him slightly over that rookie max figure, but who knows what that would be. If by some chance all three of the Kaleta-MacArthur-Mancari trio are with Buffalo, I think that figure is a bit low too, but we're not talking about all that much there. This just goes to show you how tough it it to actually figure out these kind of things. You're dead on with the three players who would be the best options in a salary dumping trade. Lydman would be the last one of that group I'd want to see moved, but he would also probably bring the most value in return. If they really want to move some salary and get a good return, it is going to have to be someone in the Vanek-Roy-Connolly-Pominville-Stafford grouping.
X. Benedict Posted June 9, 2009 Report Posted June 9, 2009 Rivet-ButlerLydman-Sekera Weber-Myers/Paetsch The bottom pair really concerns me and likely the main reason why Tallinder will not be traded this year. Are the Sabres willing to make the sacrifices to go after a player like Erik Cole this offseason? Is Erik Cole more of a difference maker at forward than Spacek and Tallinder are on the blueline? I don't know, but I think Erik Cole would look really good in blue and gold. The reason Myers will get long consideration is the right-handed shot. Without Teppo the Sabres will only have Rivet on D with the righty.
spndnchz Posted June 9, 2009 Report Posted June 9, 2009 So, there's no way you can take on salary for Cole and just fit it under the salary cap without getting rid of someone else. The assumption that I'm making is that Teppo does not come back and that somehow you are able to trade one of Tallinder, Lydman, or Hecht to make that deal. At this moment, the Sabres have $46.5 million committed to 17 players. If you assume the salary cap is flat or slightly less, say $55 million, that leaves the Sabres with $9 million to spend to meet the 23 man maximum active roster. That's $9 million against 6 players. Also, we need to assume that the Sabres will likely not spend to the max cap, so let's target $51-$54 million as what the Sabres will spend. So, realistically, you are looking at $4 million for 6 players. My assumption is that Stafford will come in at $2.5 million, Sekera at $850K, and Kaleta, MacArthur, and Mancari all coming in at a combined $1.7 million. So, based on my numbers if the Sabres re-sign all of the RFAs, the new spend is $51.55 million. If you trade Tallinder or Lydman, that will get you down to $48.988 million or $48.675 million respectively in cap hit. If you re-sign Spacek, you can't sign Cole. If you don't re-sign Spacek and insert Tyler Myers into the top 6 next year, and assume $850K for him (rookie max) and Mike Weber's $750K cap hit, you can afford to bring in Cole at $3.5 million giving you a total cap hit of $53.75 million without Tallinder and Spacek next year and 23 players on the active roster. With the right moves, it's doable. However, I'm not sure I see it happening. By not re-signing Spacek you lose all offense coming from the blueline. I think Tallinder needs to go and they need to somehow find a way to trade him at the draft. If you do that, the question becomes can you afford to not re-sign Spacek and let the kids go through their growing pains on the blueline in order to go after an Erik Cole type player? If you don't bring back Tallinder and Spacek, you are looking at a top 7 of: Rivet-Butler Lydman-Sekera Weber-Myers/Paetsch The bottom pair really concerns me and likely the main reason why Tallinder will not be traded this year. Are the Sabres willing to make the sacrifices to go after a player like Erik Cole this offseason? Is Erik Cole more of a difference maker at forward than Spacek and Tallinder are on the blueline? I don't know, but I think Erik Cole would look really good in blue and gold. Good post. IMO, just too many ho-hum D on the team. I'd keep Spach over Tally and Toni (though I like Toni, he'd have more trade value) The reason Myers will get long consideration is the right-handed shot. Without Teppo the Sabres will only have Rivet on D with the righty. Good point.
bob_sauve28 Posted June 10, 2009 Report Posted June 10, 2009 Rivet-ButlerLydman-Sekera Weber-Myers/Paetsch Oh gees, are we in a lot of trouble. :wallbash:
PromoTheRobot Posted June 10, 2009 Report Posted June 10, 2009 Without new involved ownership anything the Sabres do amounts to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. PTR
dscrapj Posted June 10, 2009 Report Posted June 10, 2009 I don't see Cole as a viable option. He is 31 years old and probably going for his "last" contract due to the wear and tear on his body. He will want too much money and term. The Sabres have a history of not overpaying and they would have to for someone like Cole. Buffalo isn't the most attractive option for free agents, particularly after missing the playoffs for the past two years. I don't see them making a splash in free agency. Neil would be a reach. Again, he's going to want to be overpaid. How much do you pay a guy who plays ten minutes a night? He's more likely to end up in Toronto with B. Burke filling May's old shoes. I think the Sabres have shown in the past that they will use the trade market to, hopefully, get what they are looking for. That way they have control of the terms of the contract and don't have to get into a bidding war. See Craig Rivet Heaven knows we have plenty of tradeable players at this point. I agree that Tallinder, Hecht and a few others could/should be moved. I think there are too many of the same type of player on this team and in the organization. I pray they are able to move some of these salaries and bring in some grit on the back end and a seasoned power forward up front. Even if it means moving some of the youth as well.
wonderbread Posted June 10, 2009 Report Posted June 10, 2009 Without new involved ownership anything the Sabres do amounts to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. PTR and the band played on.
SabresFan526 Posted June 10, 2009 Report Posted June 10, 2009 I don't see Cole as a viable option. He is 31 years old and probably going for his "last" contract due to the wear and tear on his body. He will want too much money and term. The Sabres have a history of not overpaying and they would have to for someone like Cole. Buffalo isn't the most attractive option for free agents, particularly after missing the playoffs for the past two years. I don't see them making a splash in free agency. Neil would be a reach. Again, he's going to want to be overpaid. How much do you pay a guy who plays ten minutes a night? He's more likely to end up in Toronto with B. Burke filling May's old shoes. I think the Sabres have shown in the past that they will use the trade market to, hopefully, get what they are looking for. That way they have control of the terms of the contract and don't have to get into a bidding war. See Craig Rivet Heaven knows we have plenty of tradeable players at this point. I agree that Tallinder, Hecht and a few others could/should be moved. I think there are too many of the same type of player on this team and in the organization. I pray they are able to move some of these salaries and bring in some grit on the back end and a seasoned power forward up front. Even if it means moving some of the youth as well. First, Welcome! Second, while what you say is by and large true, remember the Sabres originally signed Jaroslav Spacek as an Unrestricted Free Agent after a great half season and playoff run with Edmonton for what at the time seemed like a very reasonable deal for a 31 year old player. I think Cole has not lived up to his contract and that's why I don't see much of a bidding war taking place for him. His best move is to re-sign with Carolina because I don't think he'll get a good deal on the open market. This is exactly why Tim Connolly re-signed because he got a $1 million raise on a contract he never lived up to and likely would not have gotten a raise on the open market this offseason, especially with a flat or lower cap. I think the fact that the cap will likely be the same or less and the fact that Cole has not lived up to his deal hurts his negotiating stance and is why I think he's a viable option for Buffalo and affordable. I just don't think he has enough leverage in negotiations with any team this offseason and why there won't be a bidding war for him. A good example of a player that took the gamble by going to July 1st this past offseason was Brooks Orpik. He and his agent thought that there would be a huge bidding war for his services. When all was said and done, the best deal he got was the one Pittsburgh offered him before July 1st. I think Cole is in a similar boat and will likely test the waters and find that there isn't much there. All Buffalo has to do is beat Carolina's offer because I don't think there will be a bidding war for Cole at all, but I could definitely be wrong. Welcome again!
shrader Posted June 10, 2009 Report Posted June 10, 2009 I love that you brought up Orpik. The revisionist history that has been popping up recently about his offseason has been amusing. All these stories about how he could've signed for a lot more somewhere else but went back to Pittsburgh for his shot at the cup. What a joke. He wanted to cash out but didn't see the market he expected. Pittsburgh failed on their attempt to re-sign Hossa, so they went crawling back to Orpik. The other thing that bugs me is how some like to say that not offering Orpik a deal was a major slap in the face from the Sabres. All that tells me is that they weren't interested in him, which is fine by me. You're supposed to make a minor offer to a guy you're not interested in just because he's a local? Absurd.
nfreeman Posted June 10, 2009 Report Posted June 10, 2009 I love that you brought up Orpik. The revisionist history that has been popping up recently about his offseason has been amusing. All these stories about how he could've signed for a lot more somewhere else but went back to Pittsburgh for his shot at the cup. What a joke. He wanted to cash out but didn't see the market he expected. Pittsburgh failed on their attempt to re-sign Hossa, so they went crawling back to Orpik. The other thing that bugs me is how some like to say that not offering Orpik a deal was a major slap in the face from the Sabres. All that tells me is that they weren't interested in him, which is fine by me. You're supposed to make a minor offer to a guy you're not interested in just because he's a local? Absurd. I agree that it would have been silly for the Sabres to make Orpik an offer if his only appeal to them was his hometown, but I've also come to think that he is exactly the kind of guy they need, and they should have gone after him. He's a good-to-very-good, 1st or 2nd pair defenseman who is quite physical. Dumping Tallinder last summer and then signing Orpik as a UFA would have been a very strong move. Coupled with Rivet, Orpik would've substantially increased the toughness factor on the Sabres' D, and we probably would've seen fewer hits on Miller. They would've had to overpay for him, but he's a good player who would've filled a real hole on the team.
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