What Do the Red Wings Have that the Sabres Do Not

[cgang]

I rarely post but I wanted to ask you all a question. On my long drive home from work yesterday, I was thinking of how, year after year, the Red Wings always seem to be in the thick of things. They rarely miss the playoffs and they always seem to be entertaining-- they put out a good, strong team year after year it seems.

 

I hate playing the "Why can't the Sabres be like that" woe is me card, but why can't they? I am guessing that the Detroit market is bigger than Buffalo (too lazy to look this up) but I imagine not much so. Both are hockey towns, right? Both have nice traditions and knowledgeable, passionate fan bases. Does Detroit really have much more financial resources to pump money into its franchise to acquire better players? Is its management better/more shrewd? Is its coaching better? Is their development program for younger players better? Is their scouting better? Are there other reasons?

 

Maybe this is all apples to oranges, but I see a lot of similarities between the two cities/markets but this does not translate to the end product that each franchise is selling. Why?

[darksabre]

They draft players with better hockey sense?

[rbochan]

Where to begin?

Management that's committed to winning, and high-caliber players who will back that up by working for less $$...

A genius GM...

A scouting department that doesn't consist of nothing but 3 VCRs...

A smart coach who uses his players to the best of their abilities...

Players that pour their heart into just about every shift...

A real defense...

[Stoner]

Ownership.

[nfreeman]

It's a fair question. The Wings are absolutely the gold standard. Here are a few items that differentiate them from the Sabres:

 

1. The Wings have had the same owner since 1982 -- and that owner was recently recognized as the best owner in all of pro sports.

 

2. The Wings spent 14% more on their payroll this year than the Sabres did ($57MM to $50MM).

 

3. The Wings have been able to find great players in the late rounds of the draft. Zetterberg and Datsyuk were 7th rounders, Franzen was a 4th rounder and Lidstrom was a 2nd rounder.

[bob_sauve28]

It's a fair question. The Wings are absolutely the gold standard. Here are a few items that differentiate them from the Sabres:

 

1. The Wings have had the same owner since 1982 -- and that owner was recently recognized as the best owner in all of pro sports.

 

2. The Wings spent 14% more on their payroll this year than the Sabres did ($57MM to $50MM).

3. The Wings have been able to find great players in the late rounds of the draft. Zetterberg and Datsyuk were 7th rounders, Franzen was a 4th rounder and Lidstrom was a 2nd rounder.

 

 

Wow! I guess a little luck doesn't hurt either!

[nfreeman]

Wow! I guess a little luck doesn't hurt either!

Good call. In a sense, all 3 of those factors are "lucky" in that Darcy and Lindy have to play the hand they've been dealt -- and that hand hasn't included great ownership, 14% more cash to spend on players, or incredible finds in the 7th round of the draft. (I know they got Miller in the 5th round, but I think high-scoring forwards are less likely to slip through the cracks than goalies are.)

[Stoner]

It's a fair question. The Wings are absolutely the gold standard. Here are a few items that differentiate them from the Sabres:

 

1. The Wings have had the same owner since 1982 -- and that owner was recently recognized as the best owner in all of pro sports.

 

2. The Wings spent 14% more on their payroll this year than the Sabres did ($57MM to $50MM).

 

3. The Wings have been able to find great players in the late rounds of the draft. Zetterberg and Datsyuk were 7th rounders, Franzen was a 4th rounder and Lidstrom was a 2nd rounder.

 

What about last year? I seem to recall that the Wings were well down the list of NHL payrolls. Money doesn't explain everything.

[nfreeman]

What about last year? I seem to recall that the Wings were well down the list of NHL payrolls. Money doesn't explain everything.

What an awful post.

[Kristian]

Q : What do the Red Wings have that the Sabres do not?

 

A : Hockey players.

 

Q : What do the Sabres have that the Red Wings do not?

 

A : Lazy, uninspired, overpaid figure skaters, that care so little about winning you can't even classify them as crybabies, cause they don't cry at all, they're just indifferent.

[carpandean]

What about last year? I seem to recall that the Wings were well down the list of NHL payrolls. Money doesn't explain everything.

Basically, because we got Pratt in place of Teppo, we ended up spending about $1 million less (including Detroit adding Brad Stuart at the deadline, which cost them $750k), instead of about $1 million more. In 2006-07, we spent as much as anyone.

 

Detroit has done a lot of things right over the past two decades, including having the best European scouting system that lands them those great late-round players. There is, however, also what I like to call the "Harvard Effect" that is making it easier and easier to sustain. Look at every field of study and Harvard is ranked in the top three for graduate schools. Is it because they have better facilities or instructors than everyone else? Partly, but that's certainly not the whole reason (many other schools have comparable facilities/faculty.) They built their reputation as the best over a long period of time and now, because of that reputation, the best candidates apply there. This, in turn, allows them to accept and eventually graduate the best, which just improves their reputation further. It has become self-sustaining and self-fulfilling. With each additional year making the playoffs and each additional years winning the cup, players are willing to do more and more to play in Detroit, including taking deals that they wouldn't take with anyone else. This, in turn, makes it easier to finish in the top and take a shot at the cup in each successive year. Wash, rinse and repeat.

 

Had the Sabres won the cup in 1999, 2006 and 2007, when they had their best shots and then taken the right steps to sign Drury (among others) and bolster their weaker positions, they would also find it much easier right now to get the players that they need and to stay in the mix each year. Part of that is luck (the "no goal" against in 1999, the injuries in 2006, the refs reverting back to old NHL rules in 2007), but a lot of that is management's decisions. However, even if we imported their entire ownership/management, it would take decades and a bit of luck to reach that level or reputation. I don't expect the Sabres to be the Red Wings -- as stated, they are the gold standard, right now -- but there is certainly a lot of room in between that I expect the Sabres to move up in.

[Kristian]

Basically, because we got Pratt in place of Teppo, we ended up spending about $1 million less (including Detroit adding Brad Stuart at the deadline, which cost them $750k), instead of about $1 million more. In 2006-07, we spent as much as anyone.

 

Detroit has done a lot of things right over the past two decades, including having the best European scouting system that lands them those great late-round players. There is, however, also what I like to call the "Harvard Effect" that is making it easier and easier to sustain. Look at every field of study and Harvard is ranked in the top three for graduate schools. Is it because they have better facilities or instructors than everyone else? Partly, but that's certainly not the whole reason (many other schools have comparable facilities/faculty.) They built their reputation as the best over a long period of time and now, because of that reputation, the best candidates apply there. This, in turn, allows them to accept and eventually graduate the best, which just improves their reputation further. It has become self-sustaining and self-fulfilling. With each additional year making the playoffs and each additional years winning the cup, players are willing to do more and more to play in Detroit, including taking deals that they wouldn't take with anyone else. This, in turn, makes it easier to finish in the top and take a shot at the cup in each successive year. Wash, rinse and repeat.

 

Had the Sabres won the cup in 1999, 2006 and 2007, when they had their best shots and then taken the right steps to sign Drury (among others) and bolster their weaker positions, they would also find it much easier right now to get the players that they need and to stay in the mix each year. Part of that is luck (the "no goal" against in 1999, the injuries in 2006, the refs reverting back to old NHL rules in 2007), but a lot of that is management's decisions. However, even if we imported their entire ownership/management, it would take decades and a bit of luck to reach that level or reputation. I don't expect the Sabres to be the Red Wings -- as stated, they are the gold standard, right now -- but there is certainly a lot of room in between that I expect the Sabres to move up in.

 

+1

[tom webster]

There are a lot of reasons for Detroit's success, not the least of which is that they spend close to 4 times what the Sabres spend on management level personnel. Just go to there web site and see all the vice presidents and consultants. One thing that shouldn't be overlooked is the luck involved in how Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen had turned out. Do you really think that if Detroit knew how these players were going to turn out that they would have waited to draft them?

Like Carp said, once they achieved their elite status, they used it to acquire players like Hossa and then smartly set up a salary structure and an atmosphere that has allowed them to maintain their status.

All that being said, it will be interesting to see if their theory of not spending on goaltemding ends up being their downfall.

[SwampD]

There are a lot of reasons for Detroit's success, not the least of which is that they spend close to 4 times what the Sabres spend on management level personnel. Just go to there web site and see all the vice presidents and consultants. One thing that shouldn't be overlooked is the luck involved in how Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen had turned out. Do you really think that if Detroit knew how these players were going to turn out that they would have waited to draft them?

Like Carp said, once they achieved their elite status, they used it to acquire players like Hossa and then smartly set up a salary structure and an atmosphere that has allowed them to maintain their status.

All that being said, it will be interesting to see if their theory of not spending on goaltemding ends up being their downfall.

In hockey, on and off the ice, you make your own luck.

[Stoner]

What an awful post.

 

Why, because it exposes you? I take my lumps here when I'm wrong. Take yours. The Wings spent 14% more and might share the Sabres' plight: no Cup. Maybe wait till Detroit takes the Cup to make the point?

 

Anyway, last season the Wings won the Cup while spending about the same as the Sabres, as Carp points out. Carp, a chart would have been nice. You're slipping.

 

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/...px?year=2007-08

[Stoner]

Basically, because we got Pratt in place of Teppo, we ended up spending about $1 million less (including Detroit adding Brad Stuart at the deadline, which cost them $750k), instead of about $1 million more. In 2006-07, we spent as much as anyone.

 

Not sure if I'm getting some bad data on usatoday.com. I've learned not to question your facts. But they show the Sabres in the middle of the pack in payrolls in 06-07, about 10 million behind the Devils.

 

Salaries vs. cap hit plays into it, I know.

[nfreeman]

Why, because it exposes you? I take my lumps here when I'm wrong. Take yours. The Wings spent 14% more and might share the Sabres' plight: no Cup. Maybe wait till Detroit takes the Cup to make the point?

 

Anyway, last season the Wings won the Cup while spending about the same as the Sabres, as Carp points out. Carp, a chart would have been nice. You're slipping.

 

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/...px?year=2007-08

I said it was an awful post primarily to bust your chops, but also because (i) 2 minutes of google would've allowed you to make a definitive, value-added statement in your post, instead of "I seem to recall...", which someone else then had to do the research to verify and (ii) the statement "money isn't everything" was pretty obtuse -- the spending of 14% more was one of three reasons I mentioned in my post, and the other 2 weren't money-related.

 

Having said all that, as Tom points out, the higher spending isn't limited to the on-ice payroll. There's at least another few million spent on off-ice staff, which surely contributes to a winning franchise.

[Stoner]

I said it was an awful post primarily to bust your chops, but also because (i) 2 minutes of google would've allowed you to make a definitive, value-added statement in your post, instead of "I seem to recall...", which someone else then had to do the research to verify and (ii) the statement "money isn't everything" was pretty obtuse -- the spending of 14% more was one of three reasons I mentioned in my post, and the other 2 weren't money-related.

 

Having said all that, as Tom points out, the higher spending isn't limited to the on-ice payroll. There's at least another few million spent on off-ice staff, which surely contributes to a winning franchise.

 

What a steaming load of crap.

[tom webster]

In hockey, on and off the ice, you make your own luck.

 

Its not just hockey but pretty much anything in business. I am sure we all have stories from our dailey lives where pure luck played into someone's success. But however it is defined, luck plays a role in any successful outcome. Did New England know that Tom Brady was going to be a stud? Of course not. Look at the rest of that draft class, it was awful. But as you alluded to, they took advantage of the luck that was bestowed on them.

[carpandean]

Not sure if I'm getting some bad data on usatoday.com. I've learned not to question your facts. But they show the Sabres in the middle of the pack in payrolls in 06-07, about 10 million behind the Devils.

Salaries vs. cap hit plays into it, I know.

I don't know where they got their numbers for and I'll have to check if I have the 06-07 numbers handy. I did find this Buffalo News quote from last year:

They deserve credit for last season, when they spent to the limit. They made their run and spent every dollar they could. They are not close this year. Several estimates in recent weeks, including this one, show they are in the bottom third of the NHL in terms of cap numbers and have significant room to add salaries.

[Stoner]

I don't know where they got their numbers for and I'll have to check if I have the 06-07 numbers handy. I did find this Buffalo News quote from last year:

 

nhlnumbers.com has the Wings in 14th place in salary cap hit last season about three million ahead of the Sabres. http://www.nhlnumbers.com/compare.php?season=0708

[matter2003]

Well, here are what I can come up with:

 

1) Endless scouting budgets. They have the most scouts and pay top dollar for their scouting system, almost to the point of losing money. They find players noone else knows about and get better info on prospects. Is it not funny that their late round picks are always the ones to bloom into their stars while their first round selections usually end up on their 3rd and 4th lines as grinders?

 

2) An owner who is willing to literally spend as much as necessary to win, regardless of whether he personally makes money or not. Illitch probably doesn't have the deep pockets Golisano has, but he is much more willing to dip into his own pockets than Golisano is. Not saying either is a better approach, but not having the resources is never an issue.

 

3) A history of winning, which makes Detroit a much more desirable destination for prospective FA's they want, and it also allows them to possibly get discounts from players to play there with the understanding they will have a great chance to win a cup by sacrificing some money. The Sabres have no such pull with players, and might need to convince them to come here by paying them extra, not less...

[Sabre Dance]

Ownership.

 

Very true. BTW, the owner of the Hurricanes is Peter Karamanos, is a big business rival to Mike Ilitch, owner of the Red Wings. So much so he bought the Hartford Whalers, moved them to Carolina for a sweeter arena deal and then went out and stocked his team with talent. That includes the GM and coach. Guess what? They won the cup. Remember? It all starts at the top. If you want to cheap out and do scouting by camcorder, don't expect miracles on the ice. :rolleyes:

[carpandean]

nhlnumbers.com has the Wings in 14th place in salary cap hit last season about three million ahead of the Sabres. http://www.nhlnumbers.com/compare.php?season=0708

The quote that I listed was from last year, but was referring to 2006-07.

 

As for last year's cap hit and my original statement, admittedly I looked at cap space ($4.25 vs. $5.46 million), not actual cap hit. The difference between that gap and the $3 million that you mentioned is in the "Bonus Cushion" (about $2 million higher for Detroit.) Still, though, will Teppo instead of Pratt, the Sabres would have been over $47 million.

[deluca67]

What is a General Manager? Thank You! I'll take "What do the Red Wings have that the Sabres do not" for $1,000 Alex.