Dominic Moore

[shrader]

Wasn't Moore part of a separate deal? Didn't the Sabres trade Kotalik and then they traded the pick?

 

That whole thing was screwed up beyond belief. The Moore deal was annouced (or leaked to the canadian press anyway) before the Kotalik deal was. While it may have been a separate deal, I think it's safe to assume they had every intention of immediately sending the Kotalik draft pick up to Toronto.

[deluca67]

That whole thing was screwed up beyond belief. The Moore deal was annouced (or leaked to the canadian press anyway) before the Kotalik deal was. While it may have been a separate deal, I think it's safe to assume they had every intention of immediately sending the Kotalik draft pick up to Toronto.

I sure they intended to send off right away. Doesn't mean it's not turning into a poor decision.

[carpandean]

I sure they intended to send off right away. Doesn't mean it's not turning into a poor decision.

Well, part of the problem with saying that it is turning into a poor decision is that he was partly brought in as an insurance policy on which they haven't had need to collect. If you buy health insurance for a year and then end up staying healthy, was it a bad idea? Thankfully, neither Connolly nor Roy has been hurt, so we can really assess that part of his value. You try to infer what it would be based on his play on the third line, but you can't say for certain how he would play if asked to center a scoring line down the stretch. You'd have to guess-timate how the team would do with him as a second-line center versus Hecht.

[shrader]

I sure they intended to send off right away. Doesn't mean it's not turning into a poor decision.

 

So are you saying it was a poor decision based on Moore's value vs. the 2nd round pick's value? Or are you looking at it as Moore vs. Kotalik? The 2nd seems like the right comparison to me.

[Grinder42]

Moore has been playing very well though. He wasn't brought in to be a goal scorer, he was brought in to win faceoffs, provide some energy and make some setups. Too bad his team mates couldn't put the puck in a soccer net. And he's fine on the PK, plays well positionally. He's the last person we should be complaining about.

 

You know who the worst pick up was? Dainus Zubrus. Because we didn't even keep him.

 

 

I agree, He is clearly our best center at winning the draw as of late!

[deluca67]

So are you saying it was a poor decision based on Moore's value vs. the 2nd round pick's value? Or are you looking at it as Moore vs. Kotalik? The 2nd seems like the right comparison to me.

Moore was traded for a second round pick. That's not even debatable.

[deluca67]

Well, part of the problem with saying that it is turning into a poor decision is that he was partly brought in as an insurance policy on which they haven't had need to collect. If you buy health insurance for a year and then end up staying healthy, was it a bad idea? Thankfully, neither Connolly nor Roy has been hurt, so we can really assess that part of his value. You try to infer what it would be based on his play on the third line, but you can't say for certain how he would play if asked to center a scoring line down the stretch. You'd have to guess-timate how the team would do with him as a second-line center versus Hecht.

If Moore was a second line center he would be the Sabres second line center. Moore is not an insurance policy. He's playing, he's not sitting in the press box in case of injury. Moore was a top center for the Leafs because the Leafs suck. You assess his value based on his contributions to this team so far which has been zero.

 

The Sabres were able to get decent value for Kotalik. They immediately squandered what they gained in that trade. They got duped. I can imagine that Burke will be doing that to a lot of teams. He stole a second round pick for a marginal NHL player.

[carpandean]

If Moore was a second line center he would be the Sabres second line center. Moore is not an insurance policy. He's playing, he's not sitting in the press box in case of injury. Moore was a top center for the Leafs because the Leafs suck. You assess his value based on his contributions to this team so far which has been zero.

This doesn't make any sense.

 

First, he's the third best center behind Roy and Connolly, so why would he be the Sabres' second line center right now? They have a #1 and #2 (debatable as two which player is which, but each is at least a legitimate second-line center), so he cannot play in one of those two spots. However, if one of the two were to get hurt, he would be bumped up there instead of Hecht. Sure would have been nice to have a better backup option than Jochen for scoring-line center over the last two seasons.

 

Second, what team puts their third best center (or any position other than goaltender) in the pressbox? Every team has depth and you keep that depth fresh by playing them in the highest open spot. In this case, that would mean either as a third-line center or as a second-line winger. Yes, there is some small chance that Moore could get injured, too, so it's not a perfect insurance policy, but the likelihood of two of the three getting hurt (which would bump of Hecht again) is pretty small.

 

Yes, he got an opportunity to play a position that he otherwise would have in Toronto due to their lack of depth at that position. He did better than most would have expected him to do as a checking-line player. He's probably at the lower end of what I would consider capable of centering a scoring line (though, his faceoffs are at the high end), but that's still better than any other center on the roster after Connolly and Roy. I'd rather have an option at the lower end than an option that is off the scale (I do not consider Hecht or Gaustad capable of centering scoring line, much less Mair, Ellis or MacArthur.) I'm not saying that we should trade away Roy or Connolly and give Moore his spot.

 

While he has not yet put up points, I wouldn't say that his contribution has been zero.. He has killed penalties very well (I blame Tallinder for joining a rush while short-handed the other night) and winning a lot of important faceoffs. He has also created opportunities, both for himself and his teammates, that have, unfortunately, not turned into anything yet.

[deluca67]

This doesn't make any sense.

 

First, he's the third best center behind Roy and Connolly, so why would he be the Sabres' second line center right now? They have a #1 and #2 (debatable as two which player is which, but each is at least a legitimate second-line center), so he cannot play in one of those two spots. However, if one of the two were to get hurt, he would be bumped up there instead of Hecht. Sure would have been nice to have a better backup option than Jochen for scoring-line center over the last two seasons.

 

Second, what team puts their third best center (or any position other than goaltender) in the pressbox? Every team has depth and you keep that depth fresh by playing them in the highest open spot. In this case, that would mean either as a third-line center or as a second-line winger. Yes, there is some small chance that Moore could get injured, too, so it's not a perfect insurance policy, but the likelihood of two of the three getting hurt (which would bump of Hecht again) is pretty small.

 

Yes, he got an opportunity to play a position that he otherwise would have in Toronto due to their lack of depth at that position. He did better than most would have expected him to do as a checking-line player. He's probably at the lower end of what I would consider capable of centering a scoring line (though, his faceoffs are at the high end), but that's still better than any other center on the roster after Connolly and Roy. I'd rather have an option at the lower end than an option that is off the scale (I do not consider Hecht or Gaustad capable of centering scoring line, much less Mair, Ellis or MacArthur.) I'm not saying that we should trade away Roy or Connolly and give Moore his spot.

You are saying that Moore is a "insurance policy" just because he is a center. If you are going to spend a second round pick there should be a little more to it, no pun intended.

[carpandean]

You are saying that Moore is a "insurance policy" just because he is a center. If you are going to spend a second round pick there should be a little more to it, no pun intended.

Not just that he's a center (which is actually more than Hecht can say), but he also showed some playmaking/setup ability in Toronto. I watched some of their games and he found Blake for a lot of really good scoring chances, many of which ended up in goals. From what I saw, while I wouldn't be call him a great scoring-line center, I would say that he is good enough to carry that position. Your backup plan will never be as good as the starter (just look at backup goaltenders), but the better your backup is, the less that the other plays have to make up for when the starter goes out. In my opinion, he is a far better backup plan than the one that we had before and not having a real backup plan when Timmy went down cost us a lot of points in the last year and a half.

 

I can admit that he hasn't found his groove offensively yet, but the whole team is struggling to do that, so it seems to be more a of systemic problem. The rest of the value that he offered (PK, faceoffs, two-way play, etc.), however, has been realized pretty well.

[Kristian]

If Moore was a second line center he would be the Sabres second line center. Moore is not an insurance policy. He's playing, he's not sitting in the press box in case of injury. Moore was a top center for the Leafs because the Leafs suck. You assess his value based on his contributions to this team so far which has been zero.

 

The Sabres were able to get decent value for Kotalik. They immediately squandered what they gained in that trade. They got duped. I can imagine that Burke will be doing that to a lot of teams. He stole a second round pick for a marginal NHL player.

 

Much like the Sabres suck?

 

Seriously though, we've been dangerously thin at center since the captains walked, we've sucked on faceoffs for centuries, so at this point I think Moore deal is the least of our problems.

 

Chances are that 2nd round pick would've turned into yet another cotton candy soft "puck moving" defenseman, or another 5'9" forward, anyway.

 

Anything Darcy Regier drafts is likely to be Derek Roy II, Jason Pominville II or Nathan Paetsch II. Or to put it differently, not something that would ever help this team get better.

[deluca67]

Not just that he's a center (which is actually more than Hecht can say), but he also showed some playmaking/setup ability in Toronto. I watched some of their games and he found Blake for a lot of really good scoring chances, many of which ended up in goals. From what I saw, while I wouldn't be call him a great scoring-line center, I would say that he is good enough to carry that position. Your backup plan will never be as good as the starter (just look at backup goaltenders), but the better your backup is, the less that the other plays have to make up for when the starter goes out. In my opinion, he is a far better backup plan than the one that we had before and not having a real backup plan when Timmy went down cost us a lot of points in the last year and a half.

 

I can admit that he hasn't found his groove offensively yet, but the whole team is struggling to do that, so it seems to be more a of systemic problem. The rest of the value that he offered (PK, faceoffs, two-way play, etc.), however, has been realized pretty well.

Not to drag this out. I guess I am just not of the same opinion you have. I don't think Moore has a "groove offensively." Moore was having a career year in Toronto and I doubt greatly he will ever get close to those numbers again. He's a 15-20 point a year player who is decent on face-offs. He maybe better than the current backup plans the Sabres have a center. It doesn't mean he would be an effective backup plan or worth a 2nd round pick.

[IKnowPhysics]

Worst deadline deal ever? No.

 

BUT, if only to frustrate you just a little more, Kotalik did have a four point night last night in a rare Edmonton rout of Colorado.

[carpandean]

It doesn't mean he would be an effective backup plan or worth a 2nd round pick.

That's quite possible, but it's hard to say. In the one chance that he has had to start on a scoring line (yes, because they had no better options), he performed pretty well. Does that mean that he could do it consistently here? We won't know until/unless he gets the chance, which unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) won't happen unless Roy or Connolly gets hurt. I'm sure Darcy looked at him and thought:

 

- He's very solid in the third-line, two-way role, along with on the PK and on faceoffs, so even if they don't end up needing the insurance policy, he can still contribute a fair amount to the team.

 

- Given the opportunity, albeit the just one season, to center a scoring line, he has shown indications that he has playmaking/setup abilities that, if they could carry over to the Sabres should Connolly or Roy get hurt, would help ease the pain of that loss in a way that nobody else on the roster could have (a big concern with Connolly still in the lineup.)

 

Putting those two things together, he decided it was worth bringing him in, even for a passed-through mid-2nd-round pick. Two of the big needs that we had were someone who could actually win faceoffs and depth at scoring-line center. He, in theory, addressed these two things and I'm happy that Darcy was aware enough to know that they needed to be addressed. Maybe a second-round pick was too much for him, especially since he has no contract for next year. I imagine that Toronto was sticking with a 2nd-rounder as their asking price and Darcy looked to see if he could use one of his expendable assets to acquire that pick (as to not leave them without a 2nd-round pick.) The multi-team deal came around where they gave up Kotalik and got back what Toronto wanted. Should he have just kept the 2nd-round pick? Possibly, but that also would have been a move that the team would have perceived as sacrificing something that could help them this year (Kotalik) for something in the future. He was, instead, looking to signal that making the playoffs this year was important and trading Kotalik for Moore (loosely speaking) was part of that. I liked the idea of the move at the time and really whether it was a good move or not depends on how effective you thought (again, at the time) that he could be in the scoring-line center role if needed based on his one chance to play in that position. Based on what I saw of him in Toronto, including a few non-Sabres games, I thought that he could be reasonably effective. I wouldn't say that Darcy made a great deal, where he stole something for less than it was worth, but I wouldn't say it was a terrible deal either.

[carpandean]

BUT, if only to frustrate you just a little more, Kotalik did have a four point night last night in a rare Edmonton rout of Colorado.

He had 0 points before that (though, he did have a SO winner) and he's playing on their top line. We're pretty used to that. Nothing from Al for many games, then one good one, rinse and repeat.

[Foligno's Nose]

He had 0 points before that (though, he did have a SO winner) and he's playing on their top line. We're pretty used to that. Nothing from Al for many games, then one good one, rinse and repeat.

 

No kidding.

 

Kudos to him though for having some luck with Gagner last night...for one game.

I hope young Gagner does not get too excited about the situation.

[RayFinkle]

He had 0 points before that (though, he did have a SO winner) and he's playing on their top line. We're pretty used to that. Nothing from Al for many games, then one good one, rinse and repeat.

That certainly isn't a trait exclusive to Al, that is the MO of every Sabre on the roster.

[Patty16]

I think the bottom line is that the swap of Al fro Moore hasnt changed this team in terms of O production or WIns and Loses.

[carpandean]

That certainly isn't a trait exclusive to Al, that is the MO of every Sabre on the roster.

Every hockey player has highs and lows, but for as long I can remember, Al has been known for that. He's got a bigger spread than other players. When he's on, you think "why isn't this guy a top-line winger?" When he's low, he's very low. Not creating offense, lazy one defense, bad penalties etc., etc. Unfortunately, for Al, the low is the norm, not the exception.

[apuszczalowski]

I don't have a huge problem with Moore, except that he is just more of the same player that the Sabres already have and he isn't much of an upgrade over anyone already here. Plus you give Burke a second rounder for him. I don't see him being a player that puts the Sabres into contention into a playoff spot and much of an upgrade, so why waste the pick?

[Chief Enabler]

Every hockey player has highs and lows, but for as long I can remember, Al has been known for that. He's got a bigger spread than other players. When he's on, you think "why isn't this guy a top-line winger?" When he's low, he's very low. Not creating offense, lazy one defense, bad penalties etc., etc. Unfortunately, for Al, the low is the norm, not the exception.

Oilers 4-0-3 in last seven down the stretch....

 

He must be "on" then, another shootout goal, 4pts in the last 2 games... :wallbash:

[carpandean]

Oilers 4-0-3 in last seven down the stretch....

He must be "on" then, another shootout goal, 4pts in the last 2 games... :wallbash:

Yeah, his 0 points and -2 +/- during regulation/OT really scream "on" to me. He got lucky that the rest of his team played well enough to get him to the shootout, where he's actually useful.

 

Moore had a goal last night, albeit a garbage one, but also gave Max about 4 or 5 great chances that he failed to convert. If Max had been able to finish like Gagner did with Kotalik's feeds against Colorado, then Dominic would have matched Al's one-game performance and we might actually have one. Not saying that he didn't have several Hecht-like bad-angle shots or passes that were intercepted, but there were several times where I said "wow, nice pass ... too bad Max didn't do anything with it."

[Chief Enabler]

Yeah, his 0 points and -2 +/- during regulation/OT really scream "on" to me. He got lucky that the rest of his team played well enough to get him to the shootout, where he's actually useful.

 

Moore had a goal last night, albeit a garbage one, but also gave Max about 4 or 5 great chances that he failed to convert. If Max had been able to finish like Gagner did with Kotalik's feeds against Colorado, then Dominic would have matched Al's one-game performance and we might actually have one. Not saying that he didn't have several Hecht-like bad-angle shots or passes that were intercepted, but there were several times where I said "wow, nice pass ... too bad Max didn't do anything with it."

I know your above the combat of "if's" and "might actually's" <_<

 

Al's Oilers 4-0-3 vs. Moore's Sabres 2-4-1 is enough to garner Kotalik as an asset to his team lately IMO.

[carpandean]

Al's Oilers 4-0-3 vs. Moore's Sabres 2-4-1 is enough to garner Kotalik as an asset to his team lately IMO.

Which is 100% flawed logic. The teams' relative records are a very poor measure of each player's contributions. Is every player on the Red Wings better than every player on the Islanders? No. One good player's contributions can be completely lost in his team's otherwise pitiful effort, while the others mistake filled shifts can be covered by his team's otherwise dominant effort. My point with the "if's" is that Kotalik fed the puck to someone who was able to bury his great chances, while Moore was feeding to Max who misfired every one. Ales is playing on the top line and has points in one game. Poor is playing on a third line and has points in one game. Moore kills penalties, wins faceoff and plays hard in both ends of the rink. These give his team a better chance to win during the first 65 minute than if they had Al floating around and taking lazy penalties. However, yes, if the rest of his team is playing well enough that they get to the SO, by all means I'd rather have Al. The Sabres, as a team, aren't playing well enough right now to win whether Moore or Ales is in there. I still like their chances better with Moore than Ales ... at least for the first 65 minutes.

[Chief Enabler]

Which is 100% flawed logic. The teams' relative records are a very poor measure of each player's contributions. Is every player on the Red Wings better than every player on the Islanders? No. One good player's contributions can be completely lost in his team's otherwise pitiful effort, while the others mistake filled shifts can be covered by his team's otherwise dominant effort.

Neither is a franchise player, we know. If its a case of a teams streak, so be it. Luck? Beyond the +/- column, points, whatever. The facts on the surface are that Kotaliks team is winning games and he is contributing. Is he a bad player? Is he better or worse than Moore at his position? It doesnt really matter. Consider it an intangible bonus in Al's favor right now.

 

I do disagree on that flawed logic part.

 

Red Wings/Isles man for man? thats alittle silly.