12 reasons to fire Ruff

[LabattBlue]

Some interesting ice time numbers for Vanek.

 

First 30 games: At least 18 minutes of ice time 19 times

Last 29 games: 7 times

 

First 30 games: 24 goals

Last 29 games: 10 goals

 

The turning point seems to have been a December game against NJ. I have to look into it further, but Vanek may have been benched for a good part of the third period.

This is a case where the numbers don't lie. The more ice time your best players get, the more they produce.

[SwampD]

Some interesting ice time numbers for Vanek.

 

First 30 games: At least 18 minutes of ice time 19 times

Last 29 games: 7 times

 

First 30 games: 24 goals

Last 29 games: 10 goals

 

The turning point seems to have been a December game against NJ. I have to look into it further, but Vanek may have been benched for a good part of the third period.

This is a case where the numbers don't lie. The more ice time your best players get, the more they produce.

Numbers don't lie because you can always find the right ones to prove your point. Maybe he wasn't producing in those games and didn't deserve the ice time as much as others. And like you said, it happened so abruptly(the NJ game) that maybe he had an injury that they don't want us to know about.

 

First 30 games: 15 wins

Last 29 games: 15 wins

 

See, the numbers don't lie, Vanek's ice time is irrelevant to our winning and losing :)

[deluca67]

Numbers don't lie because you can always find the right ones to prove your point. Maybe he wasn't producing in those games and didn't deserve the ice time as much as others. And like you said, it happened so abruptly(the NJ game) that maybe he had an injury that they don't want us to know about.

 

First 30 games: 15 wins

Last 29 games: 15 wins

 

See, the numbers don't lie, Vanek's ice time is irrelevant to our winning and losing :)

What is the Sabres record when Vanek gets zero ice time?

[Stoner]

Numbers don't lie because you can always find the right ones to prove your point. Maybe he wasn't producing in those games and didn't deserve the ice time as much as others. And like you said, it happened so abruptly(the NJ game) that maybe he had an injury that they don't want us to know about.

 

First 30 games: 15 wins

Last 29 games: 15 wins

 

See, the numbers don't lie, Vanek's ice time is irrelevant to our winning and losing :)

 

Some players should get a much longer leash. I'm sure Thomas is tired of being Dicked around and treated like a rookie. Do other elite offensive talents get the same treatment? Check out the ice time stats.

[carpandean]

First 30 games: At least 18 minutes of ice time 19 times

Last 29 games: 7 times

You really can't count the last six games. The first one is just crazy to include as he had 3 minutes of ice time due to his jaw being fractured. The most recent five, you have no idea how much his conditioning/loss of weight has played a role in limiting his ice time.

 

His ice time is still down some in the those 23 versus the first 30 (17:17 vs. 18:50.) However, what's really interesting is that he has only played on the PK for 2 of those 23 versus 12 of the original 30. That difference in average SHTOI accounts for half of the change in his ice time.

 

If you really wanted to make your point, you could show that in 10 games in October, he averaged 20:02 of TOI (slightly inflated by 5 out of 10 going to OT.) In the four months after that, he's averaged 17:22, 17:23, 17:22 and 16:37 (note: that last one was just 3 games, none of which went to OT.) His point production over those five months has been up and down, though, at 1.20, 0.84, 0.63, 1.23, 1.33 PPG.

 

Of course, one could also point out that he has two goals in his last three games when his TOI has averaged just 13:53.

[Bmwolf21]

You really can't count the last six games. The first one is just crazy to include as he had 3 minutes of ice time due to his jaw being fractured. The most recent five, you have no idea how much his conditioning/loss of weight has played a role in limiting his ice time.

 

His ice time is still down some in the those 23 versus the first 30 (17:17 vs. 18:50.) However, what's really interesting is that he has only played on the PK for 2 of those 23 versus 12 of the original 30. That difference in average SHTOI accounts for half of the change in his ice time.

 

If you really wanted to make your point, you could show that in 10 games in October, he averaged 20:02 of TOI (slightly inflated by 5 out of 10 going to OT.) In the four months after that, he's averaged 17:22, 17:23, 17:22 and 16:37 (note: that was just 3 games, none of which went to OT.) His point production over those five months has been up and down, though, at 1.2, 0.84, 0.63, 1.23, 1.33 PPG.

 

Of course, one could also point out that he has two goals in his last three games when his TOI has averaged just 13:53.

The PK was the thing that jumped out at me. Looking at the NHL.com stats, you can see there are five Sabres forwards averaging in the 2:00+ range in SHTOI per game. Vanek is at 41:24 for the year for an average of :42 SHTOI/game. Get him up around the 2:15 SHTOI/game average the rest of the Sabres' F play, and you'll add approx. 1:30 TOI/game to his total. That puts him around 19:00 of Total TOI/game. Not elite ice time levels (not sure how Pominville is still getting 20:06 or Hecht is at 17+, but those are different individual arguments) but more comparable.

[jad1]

Some players should get a much longer leash. I'm sure Thomas is tired of being Dicked around and treated like a rookie. Do other elite offensive talents get the same treatment? Check out the ice time stats.

 

Couldn't agree less. Considering the cost and length of his contract, the last thing the Sabres need is for Vanek to become the next Miro Satan.

 

The best thing that could happen for Sabres fans is that Vanek develops into on-ice and locker room leader. If that means keeping him on a short leash, so be it. In the long run, the team will be better for it.

 

There are no indications from team news or interviews with Vanek that he has any complaint about ice time (like there was for Paille). But if Vanek turns out to be the pussified, entitled brat that you make him out to be, well the sooner the team knows that, the better. The team can't afford to spend that much money on a whiner and crybaby who is more concerned about his ice time than doing the dirty work required to win games.

 

Again, if this is your argument to fire Ruff, it's an extremely poor one. Holding talented players to hire standards to develop them into team leaders is the mark of a good coach, not a bad one.

[Assquatch]

I almost took the bait, but I didn't want to end up on a wall singing to a bearded man.

 

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[carpandean]

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[Stoner]

Couldn't agree less. Considering the cost and length of his contract, the last thing the Sabres need is for Vanek to become the next Miro Satan.

 

The best thing that could happen for Sabres fans is that Vanek develops into on-ice and locker room leader. If that means keeping him on a short leash, so be it. In the long run, the team will be better for it.

 

There are no indications from team news or interviews with Vanek that he has any complaint about ice time (like there was for Paille). But if Vanek turns out to be the pussified, entitled brat that you make him out to be, well the sooner the team knows that, the better. The team can't afford to spend that much money on a whiner and crybaby who is more concerned about his ice time than doing the dirty work required to win games.

 

Again, if this is your argument to fire Ruff, it's an extremely poor one. Holding talented players to hire standards to develop them into team leaders is the mark of a good coach, not a bad one.

 

You can be upset about ice time and not be a "pussified, entitled brat." You can also be upset and keep it to yourself. Leader? One way to look at leadership is for your best player to step up and say, "I want more responsibility. I want to put this team on my back. I want to be the go-to guy." Not the guy who averaged less ice time than Paul Gaustad last season and is currently lagging behind Jason Pominville.

 

My argument to fire Ruff, by the way, is missing the playoffs five times in seven years and clearly losing his players the last two years. Playing Vanek 12 minutes in a near must win situation is just the topper.

[Stoner]

As long as we're having fun with numbers, Vanek is tied for sixth in goals (and would be pushing for second place if he hadn't been injured -- carp will be along with analysis of how many goals Vanek actually would have had) and is 99th in ice time among forwards. 99th!

[DR HOLLIDAY]

As long as we're having fun with numbers, Vanek is tied for sixth in goals (and would be pushing for second place if he hadn't been injured

 

So you are saying that he is doing well because Ruff is giving him just the right amount of ice time..............Sweet................... :thumbsup:

[sabreskings3623]

I think it's time for a new coach anyways. Vanek averages only 17-something minutes per game, and our team doesn't seem to respond to Ruff anymore.

[jad1]

You can be upset about ice time and not be a "pussified, entitled brat." You can also be upset and keep it to yourself. Leader? One way to look at leadership is for your best player to step up and say, "I want more responsibility. I want to put this team on my back. I want to be the go-to guy." Not the guy who averaged less ice time than Paul Gaustad last season and is currently lagging behind Jason Pominville.

 

My argument to fire Ruff, by the way, is missing the playoffs five times in seven years and clearly losing his players the last two years. Playing Vanek 12 minutes in a near must win situation is just the topper.

 

Every player on the team can say they want to be a leader, and just about every player on the team has said that. The problem is that, aside from maybe Miller, not one of them backs up their big talk with better play.

 

Vanek has high potential to become a floater. Like Satan, he is able to pile up the goals, but his over-all play is often lacking. So while he gets his one or two goals, he does nothing to stop the opponent from scoring four or five.

 

Half his goals have come on the power play this season. His five on five play has not been up to par for a guy tying up $7 million a year, which results in reduced ice time.

 

And considering that the Sabres have had one of the youngest teams in the league many of the 5 out of the 7 years you mention, and have lacked on-ice leadership from a bunch of young, and I would argue comfortable, players, it's no surprise that the Sabres have been on the cusp of the playoffs all those years.

 

However, give Ruff a couple guys with mid-level talent who hate to lose, and the Sabres will jump back to a top four team in the conference and Ruff will again be a Jack Adams finalist.

 

So the team can fire Ruff and hope they can find a better coach, and they probably won't, or they can makes some moves to bring in a couple of tough-minded players in the off-season who will work with Ruff to make the locker room an uncomfortable place when the team loses.