Giveaways

[jad1]

If you do a query on +- statistics on NHL.com you will find that the top teams players dominate in that category. So maybe the entire category of +- has more to do with the fact that if you are winning more games you must be scoring more goals, as a team, relative to your oponents... Correct? Moreover many of the league leaders are still in that first page of seach query when you do the +- query. Why is it that Green, the defenseman for Washington is leading in almost both categories. Maybe he is on the Ice with A O and is getting the benefit from all those goals scored....? The only problem with that is that, is that if A O is not on the first page of +- statistics yet AO is the league leader in giveaways and Green is second. How do you account for this?

 

Remember 45 percent of all statistics are meaningless lol. :rolleyes:

 

Over the last two seasons, Max has played in 90 games and is a -30. He has scored a pitiful 12 goals in those 90 games. That production is piss-poor, no matter how you spin it.

 

I have no idea why you mention Green here, but he a +29 over the last two seasons, and has scored 41 goals, which is astounding for a modern-day NHL defensemen. Green's giveways are more than accounted for by his high level of production.

 

Afinogenov's play has fallen off the table the last two years, and it's do mainly to the fact that he can't score goals. It's not Ruff's system, it's not his linemates, it's him.

 

Max's role on this team is to provide offense. He's not here as a checker or enforcer. 12 goals in two seasons is beyond lousy, and his 2 goals this season has worn out Ruff's patience with him, and rightly so. He has failed his team.

 

He hasn't been traded, because no GM in the league is stupid enough to give anything for a one-dimensional forward (-30 over the last two season) who has lost his scoring touch and hasn't shown any inclination of finding it again.

[G.M.]

I don't know why I'm responding to one of these completely unreadable posts, but if you really want an explanation of the differences between Afinogenov and Roy-Ovechkin-Green, here are some not so random numbers for you.

 

12

57

82

56

 

or

 

0.35

0.90

1.32

1.10

 

The first one looks a hell of a lot lower than the others, doesn't it?

 

And hell, for all I know, you may have actually addressed this point, but your long winded, incoherent ramblings are impossible to even skim through. I'd much rather read PA's latest ramblings about why he has changed denture creams 15 times in the past year.

 

Those are some interesting numbers... LOL talk about incoherent! Well I am eternally glad you do not make long posts then--because you stumped me with 1/100 the charactes I used in my post! If you're not going to bother to read the entire post or understand it then why bother to pretend that you have? To make make believe you have some godlike powers for understanding the written word? When you read a book do you look at the front cover and chant huuuuuuuuuumn and gain understanding... Yes your special all right! Very very special! :worthy: :wallbash:

[Bmwolf21]

All the other Sabres are allowed to play through their slumps why not Max? Because Max was on the outs two years ago when Lindy took him off the Roy Vanek line and has not found any chemistry on other lines.

 

Lets suppose you are right, then why oh why have the dumb dumb Sabres waited again untill he was in the option year of a contract to try to have to deal him. See I don't care if Max plays or he does not... To me the player is an attribute, an asset. If at some point you decide that he does not fit the plan then he must be moved for compensation. The big deal here is that this is a guy that came up through the Sabres "system". Remember the year we went to the finals Roy wanted him in the lineup from Rochester because of the Sabres lack of scoring?

So Afinogenov has been here a long time. Drafted by Buffalo, developed by Buffalo they have had 7 or 8 years to do something with him and now will be lost without compensation, supposedly because their are no buyers for him. I have no doubt that if he went and played for Pittsburgh or any team with a number one center he would be explosive.

 

The Sabres have just given up on him and I don't think he wants to play for them either.

 

Why is all this so obvious to me and not Darcy?

Let's not act like Max is in a slump. He has had 1 1/2 good seasons in his entire NHL career, which coincided with the "new NHL" standards of enforcement AND playing on, as carp likes to put it, the "best third line" in the NHL. He's cracked 20 goals just three times and cracked 50 points twice in his previous eight seasons. He's a career -33.

 

Playoffs? You want to talk playoffs? Fine. Here's the final nail in the Max coffin: 49 NHL playoff games. 10 goals, 13 assists, 23 points. Disappears in big games. Takes dumb penalties. Turns the puck over in the worst ways possible.

 

He's nothing more than a fast-skating, 45-point, overrated flash-in-the-pan who has little to no trade value. Why is it so obvious to pretty much everyone else but you?

[jimiVbaby]

All the other Sabres are allowed to play through their slumps why not Max? Because Max was on the outs two years ago when Lindy took him off the Roy Vanek line and has not found any chemistry on other lines.

 

Lets suppose you are right, then why oh why have the dumb dumb Sabres waited again untill he was in the option year of a contract to try to have to deal him. See I don't care if Max plays or he does not... To me the player is an attribute, an asset. If at some point you decide that he does not fit the plan then he must be moved for compensation. The big deal here is that this is a guy that came up through the Sabres "system". Remember the year we went to the finals Roy wanted him in the lineup from Rochester because of the Sabres lack of scoring?

So Afinogenov has been here a long time. Drafted by Buffalo, developed by Buffalo they have had 7 or 8 years to do something with him and now will be lost without compensation, supposedly because their are no buyers for him. I have no doubt that if he went and played for Pittsburgh or any team with a number one center he would be explosive.

 

The Sabres have just given up on him and I don't think he wants to play for them either.

 

Why is all this so obvious to me and not Darcy?

I really hope there is some GM out there that is dumb enough to believe this.

[shrader]

Those are some interesting numbers... LOL talk about incoherent! Well I am eternally glad you do not make long posts then--because you stumped me with 1/100 the charactes I used in my post! If you're not going to bother to read the entire post or understand it then why bother to pretend that you have? To make make believe you have some godlike powers for understanding the written word? When you read a book do you look at the front cover and chant huuuuuuuuuumn and gain understanding... Yes your special all right! Very very special! :worthy: :wallbash:

 

The funny thing is that any poster with half a brain around here could easily figure out exactly what those numbers are. But hey, I didn't expect anything from you. I'll let someone else spell it out if they want to, but I'm not going to put in any effort to dumb things down for you.

[wonderbread]

this train wreck is moving along nicely!

[G.M.]

I haven't read most of what you've posted, but I see that you attempt to attribute Max's low +/- to the fact that he's not on a top team. But, you should acknowledge the fact that he has the worst +/- on THIS team, which implies that his low +/- contributes to the problem for THIS team... Correct?

 

 

I try to establish a few things...

Firstly that the number of giveaways is largely due to the amount of times a player has the puck. Players that have the puck, want the puck, and are better offensively since they want the puck...

Also these same players lose the puck more simply because they have the puck more. This idea harkens back to the 1980's when time of possession was used as one of the bench marks for successfull teams. When teams first realize there was a correlation between puck possession and success. However, correllation does not imply causation. So much so that Scotty Boman advocated more in zone passes between defenseman just to ramp up this number. Puck control...

 

Secondly that +- is a function of successful teams and not necessarally a function of defensive minded players on a given team. If Team A is winning a vast majority of its games it simply means that it is outscoring its oponents. I mean that is what you do in hockey, outscore your openents and then you win. If this is the case then the majority of players on your team statistically will have a better chance of gaining a + meaing the probability that a goal is scored for your team, while you are on the ice, is higher then teams that have more goals scored against. (Teams that lose more then they win)

 

The more your team wins games the more it will be reflected in the difference in plus minus among the players.

If your team is always being outscored then your chances of having a positive plus minus is reduced... Which means your team is losing more.

 

Thirdly, +- is the difference between even strength goals scored for and against while a player is on the ice. And it only shows that... Take a look at some of the plus minus ratings for Gretzky relative to when he played for LA and Edmonton. He still had some big numbered season while in LA but his +- was smaller or negative at times...

 

therefore +- is more a funtion of Aggregate team succuss reflected through the statistic then it is about the defensive ability of individual players...

 

Basically the +- statistic is not very indicative of overall defensive ability of a given player. Also other factors such as the amount of ice time a player has will inflate this number substantially... For instance Nick Lidstrom plays alot of minutes and his +- is through the roof... Does this mean that he is the best defensively maybe. Maybe not. There have been many defenseman that have moved from bad teams to good teams at the trade deadline and "turned their +- statistics around" Does this mean that this defenseman suddenly became better defensively or does it mean that the player became better defensively simply because the team was winning more and the player was receiving more plusses then minuses?

[SwampD]

I try to establish a few things...

Firstly that the number of giveaways is largely due to the amount of times a player has the puck. Players that have the puck, want the puck, and are better offensively since they want the puck...

Also these same players lose the puck more simply because they have the puck more. This idea harkens back to the 1980's when time of possession was used as one of the bench marks for successfull teams. When teams first realize there was a correlation between puck possession and success. However, correllation does not imply causation. So much so that Scotty Boman advocated more in zone passes between defenseman just to ramp up this number. Puck control...

 

Secondly that +- is a function of successful teams and not necessarally a function of defensive minded players on a given team. If Team A is winning a vast majority of its games it simply means that it is outscoring its oponents. I mean that is what you do in hockey, outscore your openents and then you win. If this is the case then the majority of players on your team statistically will have a better chance of gaining a + meaing the probability that a goal is scored for your team, while you are on the ice, is higher then teams that have more goals scored against. (Teams that lose more then they win)

 

The more your team wins games the more it will be reflected in the difference in plus minus among the players.

If your team is always being outscored then your chances of having a positive plus minus is reduced... Which means your team is losing more.

 

Thirdly, +- is the difference between even strength goals scored for and against while a player is on the ice. And it only shows that... Take a look at some of the plus minus ratings for Gretzky relative to when he played for LA and Edmonton. He still had some big numbered season while in LA but his +- was smaller or negative at times...

 

therefore +- is more a funtion of Aggregate team succuss reflected through the statistic then it is about the defensive ability of individual players...

 

Basically the +- statistic is not very indicative of overall defensive ability of a given player. Also other factors such as the amount of ice time a player has will inflate this number substantially... For instance Nick Lidstrom plays alot of minutes and his +- is through the roof... Does this mean that he is the best defensively maybe. Maybe not. There have been many defenseman that have moved from bad teams to good teams at the trade deadline and "turned their +- statistics around" Does this mean that this defenseman suddenly became better defensively or does it mean that the player became better defensively simply because the team was winning more and the player was receiving more plusses then minuses?

So, what you are saying is that the only reason he was plus 19 in '06-'07 was because Vanek and Roy were inflating his number. I totally agree.

[darksabre]

Max Afinogenov is washed up trash on the waterfront. He's as useful as the subway and has about as much hockey potential as the Aud does now.

[G.M.]

I have two things (Mom and Dad were sis and bro).

 

1. Carp should do a handy dandy chart of the Sabres' record with and without each player in the lineup, going back to 1970. OK, post-lockout. OK, just this season. I imagine it wouldn't be easy to do.

 

2. All NHL stats need to be looked at very skeptically. I mean, goals and assists can be trusted, but beyond that... buyer beware.

 

My concern is with playoffs more so then regular season success. If goals and assists may be "Trusted" what of a player like Alexi Yashin. He was one of the best offensive players in the game for years yet also one of the softest. When push came to shove Peca ate him alive in the playoffs and his defensive ability was really exposed. Success where it counts lies in how players produce in the playoffs. Their worth as a regular season trade asset is a different thing entirely... That is why there are dumb GM's out there that release players like Drury and keep soft non producers like Tiny Tim. Move players that score big goals like JP Dumont and keep big players like Kotalik. We have a very very dumb GM working for the Sabres and he will be exposed soon, very soon. :thumbdown:

[G.M.]

I think there is a lot of truth in chances versus giveaways. The more you are involved in the play, the more likely you are to turn it over. The issue isn't his number of turnovers, its the way they happen. Max will rush the zone which requires the D to back off. Instead of attacking the net, he would go behind it. The D would collapse on him there and he would lose the puck. It happens way too many times.

 

Derek Roy loses the puck attacking the net, trying to split the D or make a pass. His turnovers this year are sky-high as well. I think he is getting a pass because he still has 20+ goals. Max for all his trying just wasn't scoring. All would have been forgiven if he could have just scored some goals. If Max had 15 or so goals now, Pominville and Hecht would be the ones garnering all the incoming flack on this board.

 

Turnovers may be justified if the player simply creates more then he allows. What of Green he plays defense... Defensive zone giveaways must be worse yet his +- is near the top of the league? So he must be producing more then allowing... If you have a creative player that is playing with very mediocre players and their is no chemistry among them then that player is in trouble so far as his production. This is the case with Max. If the Sabres allowed Connolly and Max to play together I believe Max would be producing offensively again... BTW look at what has happend to Connolly since Vanek went down. It is synergy and the whole being greater then the parts.

[jimiVbaby]

Turnovers may be justified if the player simply creates more then he allows. What of Green he plays defense... Defensive zone giveaways must be worse yet his +- is near the top of the league? So he must be producing more then allowing... If you have a creative player that is playing with very mediocre players and their is no chemistry among them then that player is in trouble so far as his production. This is the case with Max. If the Sabres allowed Connolly and Max to play together I believe Max would be producing offensively again... BTW look at what has happend to Connolly since Vanek went down. It is synergy and the whole being greater then the parts.

See, what you're failing to realize is that Max is a detriment to any sort of line synergy. Frequent turnovers/extra moves at the blue line and having no hockey sense makes him extremely hard to play with. I know you're mystified that Max can skate fast but the dude is worthless.

 

I think the quote was "People that like Max are either chicks or know nothing about hockey".

[darksabre]

See, what you're failing to realize is that Max is a detriment to any sort of line synergy. Frequent turnovers/extra moves at the blue line and having no hockey sense makes him extremely hard to play with. I know you're mystified that Max can skate fast but the dude is worthless.

 

I think the quote was "People that like Max are either chicks or know nothing about hockey".

 

Exactly. And if you play hockey, you know how annoying players like Max are. Team mates like a guy who will dump the puck and chase in after it, so that the rest of us can worry about getting in onside and crashing the net/setting up the cycle. This dipsy-doodle crap at the blueline is obnoxious.

[BuffalOhio]

Exactly. And if you play hockey, you know how annoying players like Max are. Team mates like a guy who will dump the puck and chase in after it, so that the rest of us can worry about getting in onside and crashing the net/setting up the cycle. This dipsy-doodle crap at the blueline is obnoxious.

 

We referees hate guys that cause offsides like that, also!

[nfreeman]

Lets suppose you are right, then why oh why have the dumb dumb Sabres waited again untill he was in the option year of a contract to try to have to deal him. See I don't care if Max plays or he does not... To me the player is an attribute, an asset. If at some point you decide that he does not fit the plan then he must be moved for compensation.

I agree that Darcy overplayed his hand on Max. He should've dumped him last summer for whatever low draft pick he could've gotten. He then would've had a solid $3MM to use for a player who could've helped this year.

 

Over the last two seasons, Max has played in 90 games and is a -30. He has scored a pitiful 12 goals in those 90 games. That production is piss-poor, no matter how you spin it.

 

Afinogenov's play has fallen off the table the last two years, and it's do mainly to the fact that he can't score goals. It's not Ruff's system, it's not his linemates, it's him.

 

Max's role on this team is to provide offense. He's not here as a checker or enforcer. 12 goals in two seasons is beyond lousy, and his 2 goals this season has worn out Ruff's patience with him, and rightly so. He has failed his team.

I also agree with this -- Max's struggles are undeniable and can't be blamed on anyone except him (and the same goes for Pommer, Hecht, Tallinder and every other GD underperforming Sabre).

 

That is why there are dumb GM's out there that release players like Drury and keep soft non producers like Tiny Tim. Move players that score big goals like JP Dumont and keep big players like Kotalik. We have a very very dumb GM working for the Sabres and he will be exposed soon, very soon. :thumbdown:

Well, I agree that a number of Darcy's moves have not worked, and that he needs to do a better job for the Sabres to become contenders again, but Max not playing more isn't Darcy's fault. This is another one of those moves that seemed reasonable at the time but just hasn't worked out. Max was very productive for 2 years, then fell off the table last year. It wasn't unreasonable to hope that he would regain his mojo this year, but it certainly didn't happen, and in retrospect the right move would've been to dump him and move on.

[jad1]

My concern is with playoffs more so then regular season success. If goals and assists may be "Trusted" what of a player like Alexi Yashin. He was one of the best offensive players in the game for years yet also one of the softest. When push came to shove Peca ate him alive in the playoffs and his defensive ability was really exposed. Success where it counts lies in how players produce in the playoffs. Their worth as a regular season trade asset is a different thing entirely... That is why there are dumb GM's out there that release players like Drury and keep soft non producers like Tiny Tim. Move players that score big goals like JP Dumont and keep big players like Kotalik. We have a very very dumb GM working for the Sabres and he will be exposed soon, very soon. :thumbdown:

 

Drury has never been "released." He's been traded and has been a unrestricted free agent. As an unrestricted free agent, he chose to join his "hometown" team, rather than accept a similar package offered to him by the Sabres.

 

And Regier didn't "move" Dumont. Dumont elected arbitration, which put him at the end of a long line of contract re-signings. The arbitrator set a high price on Dumont, which Regier could not fit under the cap. Dumont ended up signing with Nashville, for less than his arbitration award.

 

As for Regier being "dumb," statistically he is the most successful GM in the history of the franchise, so I really wouldn't classify him that way.

 

No doubt though, he has done dumb things. Being patient with the declining skills of Max Afinogenov is one of those dumb things he could be accused of.

[G.M.]

Over the last two seasons, Max has played in 90 games and is a -30. He has scored a pitiful 12 goals in those 90 games. That production is piss-poor, no matter how you spin it.

 

I have no idea why you mention Green here, but he a +29 over the last two seasons, and has scored 41 goals, which is astounding for a modern-day NHL defensemen. Green's giveways are more than accounted for by his high level of production.

 

Afinogenov's play has fallen off the table the last two years, and it's do mainly to the fact that he can't score goals. It's not Ruff's system, it's not his linemates, it's him.

 

Max's role on this team is to provide offense. He's not here as a checker or enforcer. 12 goals in two seasons is beyond lousy, and his 2 goals this season has worn out Ruff's patience with him, and rightly so. He has failed his team.

 

He hasn't been traded, because no GM in the league is stupid enough to give anything for a one-dimensional forward (-30 over the last two season) who has lost his scoring touch and hasn't shown any inclination of finding it again.

 

 

You make a very compelling argument with your reference to his stats over the past two years but other parts of your argument may seem wanting.

 

You write ?It's not Ruff's system, it's not his linemates, it's him.? And you base this on what?

Firstly, I don?t think you believe that an offense player that has played most of his career, for arguments sake, under a Left Wing Lock and at times an all out ?run and gun? type of game would be afforded more chances then a player responsible for playing the trap? You must concede that Lindy has gone in the past two years to a more defensive system. You must also concede that it is more difficult to generate offensive chances when playing such a game. Therefore you must conclude that the system played must have some bearing on the types of offensive opportunities afforded. Since you know that Ruff has changed the system and since you are not an idiot then you must concede two major points here.

? The system advocated must affect the types and quantities of chances afforded to a team.

? Lindy has indeed changed the system to a more defensive type of game.

Your second tidbit is equally wanting, the idea that it's not his linemates, it's him. Are you saying that line mates do not matter? If you really believe this then why isn?t Andrew Peters playing of the first line? Because if he did the number of chances generated would be less that is why. I mean this goes without say. So I will just concede that with that statement you were in a narcoleptic state.

For clarification who were his linemates? Well lets take a look down memory lane. Back in the 2006-2007 season Afinogenov was injured and only played in 56 regular season games. In that time, the most consistent line for Buffalo was the Vanek Roy Afinogenov line. In fact early in that season before his injury Afinogenov was in a neck and neck race with Marion Hossa for the leagues scoring title. Then Afinogenov was injured. Drew Stafford was moved to that line and performed well. Around the trade deadline there was much talk about what to do with Max and if he should go back with Roy and Vanek. At any rate, Lindy moved Max off, what was Buffalo?s best line and through experimentation tried him mostly on the fourth and third lines with wingers like Kotalik and Peters. After that he never found his stride. The simple fact is that you cant put a race horse with a plow horse and expect results. Fact of the matter is that that was the season or offseason that Max should have been moved. You don?t wait this long. These are the contributing factors of his demise.

No good line mates

A coach that gave his job away to a rookie.

 

The Sabres inability to get another number one center in here to pair him with.

And tell you the truth part of the problem lies with Max? He finally gave up but the team and management gave up on him first. He is a player in need of a change of scenery. At any rate I do not care if he plays or not. My aggravation does not stem from his performance but the Sabres inability to aquire adequate compensation for another player.

Again the Sabres have known what they have had in Afinogenov, drafted developed and processed through our system so why do they wait to deal him if all this stuff was so clear. Because Darcy does not have a clue about how to create a winner.

BTW the last time Afinogenov played with Vanek and Roy he played in 56 games and scored 61 points and was a plus 19. So don't tell me that line mates and system have nothing to do with it...

Not to mention the emotional impact of going from an integral part of the team in a very successfull season to a player relagated to the third and forth lines.

Let vanek or Connolly play with Kotalik and MacArthur for a while and see what kind of numbers they put up...

 

Nice try though :blush:

[carpandean]

Of course the system and his linemates will have some effect on his output, but they should not have had as much effect as they did. I believe that I pointed out in another thread that Adam Mair (love the guy, but he's no offensive juggernaut) has 0.114 goals/game this season playing with no better linemates than Max has. By comparison, Max has just 0.058 goals/game. Adam has a shot percent of 12.7%; Max is at 3%. Only defensemen, Andrew Peters and the Portland boys have lower percentages.

 

Also, how bad a giveaway is (for example, is it at the head of the rush, where the team can recover easily, or is it moving back to the blueline after going around the opposition's net, allowing their forwards to catch your defensement flat-footed) doesn't show up on the stats sheet. Max's tend to be of the worst kind.

[Kristian]

Of course the system and his linemates will have some effect on his output, but they should not have had as much effect as they did. I believe that I pointed out in another thread that Adam Mair (love the guy, but he's no offensive juggernaut) has 0.114 goals/game this season playing with no better linemates than Max has. By comparison, Max has just 0.058 goals/game. Adam has a shot percent of 12.7%; Max is at 3%. Only defensemen, Andrew Peters and the Portland boys have lower percentages.

 

Also, how bad a giveaway is (for example, is it at the head of the rush, where the team can recover easily, or is it moving back to the blueline after going around the opposition's net, allowing their forwards to catch your defensement flat-footed) doesn't show up on the stats sheet. Max's tend to be of the worst kind.

 

Another pretty important part of the numbers Max posted with Vanek and Roy, was that it happened when the Briere line was hogging all the defensive attention from the opposition.

 

Once Max was asked to elevate his game, and become one of the go-to guys, he fell flat on his face and hasn't gotten up since.

 

So sure, all we need to do to make Max flourish again is to bring in two star centers so he can go back to only being a playoff choker, and THEN look-at-im-go...!!!! :wallbash:

 

And I wonder how come Yashin is mentioned as an example of a true playoff vanishing act somewhere else in this thread, when his playoff numbers are virtually identical to Max's. In fact, Yashin has more points, in one less game played, and since pretty much everybody knows how he usually performed come crunch time, it completely blows me away that some people have a hard time recognizing Max for the exact same shortcomings as Yashin, come playoff time.

 

* Disclaimer - Some sarcasm may occur in this post.

[bottlecap]

What are you guys talking about? Max hasn't had a giveaway in about two months! But the rest of the team has picked up the slack. Seriously, what's the use picking on this guy? He's Afinishedgenov.

[jad1]

You make a very compelling argument with your reference to his stats over the past two years but other parts of your argument may seem wanting.

 

You write ?It's not Ruff's system, it's not his linemates, it's him.? And you base this on what?

Firstly, I don?t think you believe that an offense player that has played most of his career, for arguments sake, under a Left Wing Lock and at times an all out ?run and gun? type of game would be afforded more chances then a player responsible for playing the trap? You must concede that Lindy has gone in the past two years to a more defensive system. You must also concede that it is more difficult to generate offensive chances when playing such a game. Therefore you must conclude that the system played must have some bearing on the types of offensive opportunities afforded. Since you know that Ruff has changed the system and since you are not an idiot then you must concede two major points here.

? The system advocated must affect the types and quantities of chances afforded to a team.

? Lindy has indeed changed the system to a more defensive type of game.

Your second tidbit is equally wanting, the idea that it's not his linemates, it's him. Are you saying that line mates do not matter? If you really believe this then why isn?t Andrew Peters playing of the first line? Because if he did the number of chances generated would be less that is why. I mean this goes without say. So I will just concede that with that statement you were in a narcoleptic state.

For clarification who were his linemates? Well lets take a look down memory lane. Back in the 2006-2007 season Afinogenov was injured and only played in 56 regular season games. In that time, the most consistent line for Buffalo was the Vanek Roy Afinogenov line. In fact early in that season before his injury Afinogenov was in a neck and neck race with Marion Hossa for the leagues scoring title. Then Afinogenov was injured. Drew Stafford was moved to that line and performed well. Around the trade deadline there was much talk about what to do with Max and if he should go back with Roy and Vanek. At any rate, Lindy moved Max off, what was Buffalo?s best line and through experimentation tried him mostly on the fourth and third lines with wingers like Kotalik and Peters. After that he never found his stride. The simple fact is that you cant put a race horse with a plow horse and expect results. Fact of the matter is that that was the season or offseason that Max should have been moved. You don?t wait this long. These are the contributing factors of his demise.

No good line mates

A coach that gave his job away to a rookie.

 

The Sabres inability to get another number one center in here to pair him with.

And tell you the truth part of the problem lies with Max? He finally gave up but the team and management gave up on him first. He is a player in need of a change of scenery. At any rate I do not care if he plays or not. My aggravation does not stem from his performance but the Sabres inability to aquire adequate compensation for another player.

Again the Sabres have known what they have had in Afinogenov, drafted developed and processed through our system so why do they wait to deal him if all this stuff was so clear. Because Darcy does not have a clue about how to create a winner.

BTW the last time Afinogenov played with Vanek and Roy he played in 56 games and scored 61 points and was a plus 19. So don't tell me that line mates and system have nothing to do with it...

Not to mention the emotional impact of going from an integral part of the team in a very successfull season to a player relagated to the third and forth lines.

Let vanek or Connolly play with Kotalik and MacArthur for a while and see what kind of numbers they put up...

 

Nice try though :blush:

 

Do you honestly believe this pile of bullsh#t? Memory lane? Max needs a top line center?

 

Max PLAYED his way off the top line. Max was a top six forward last season and earlier this season, but his own inept play forced him down the roster. How many top six forwards get to keep their jobs with 12 goals in two seasons? Being good in 2006 doesn't hold water if you suck in 2007 and 2008.

 

You make the point Max is hurt by not playing with a top center. So, for fun, let's compare his production this season to some fourth line players who ALSO don't play with top linemates, who ALSO play in the same system as Max, under the SAME coach.

 

Max -- 2 goals. Kaletta -- 4 goals. Mair -- 7 goals. Ellis -- 5 goals (2-matching Max's season total - in one game). Paille, also struggling -- 7 goals.

 

So Max DOESN'T even measure up to the goal produciton of the Sabres 4th line players.

 

Yet you want Ruff to put him a the top line? Do you comprehend that Max's production this season is worse than the players on the 4th line? In your own words, the plow horses are kicking the race horse's ass.

 

Based upon this horrible production, and Max's expected role as a goal scorer, do you honestly believe that Ruff should ignore this and let Max on the top two lines?

 

It's not the coach. It's not the scheme. It's not the GM. It's not his linemates. It's Max, and his rapidly declining production.

[Eleven]

I was not aware that you have done a statistical anaylisis on types of giveaways and where they occur relative to type, if you are guessing or you just saw a few blatent examples then your response is not based in logic but in pond scum.

 

It was difficult enough to follow your 1000-word initial post (was it a mission statement? a manifesto?) in this thread, but this? You've got to be either kidding or drunk.

[Grinder42]

I have heard the Sabres winning percentage is actually better when he is in the lineup, yet he is now a defensive cancer that the team has cut out?

Lindy Ruff, Paul Hamilton, and others continue to talk about his giveaways. Yet the Sabres were still what 4th or 5th in goals overall last season? But suddenly this season Lindy wants to play a full on trap so Afinogenov is now the team whipping boy because he is the only Sabre that can?t play ?the system??

Many on this board say ?awe if he goes back into the lineup? blah blah blah Ill kill myself they don?t need him giving the puck away?.

Well don?t worry Max you?re in good company. Seems like the Sabres will move Derek Roy at the deadline, after all, he leads the team and is third in the league in giveaways. Washington?s Mike Green is second in the league in giveaways behind that other ?Bum? on Washington, Ovechkin. In fact the entire first page statistical query on giveaways on NHL.com contains most of the best players in the league. In fact I might just go on to say that there is a corollary between scoring chances and Giveaways. Is this impossible? Not really? Any player, of Max?s ilk, you know the type, (the type that is involved all the time and wants to make something happen) is simply carrying the puck more and tends to lose it more. If he is not good defensively then put him on a line with someone that is?

If you have a player you need to protect put a Dave Semenko on his wing.

Remember Punch brought in Robert for Martin and Perreault, not because of his offense, which was average before Buffalo, but for his defensive game.

The only problem with Max is that his coach does not like him and never has. Lindy was a great mucker and grinder in his day one of the best I have ever seen, but had very little offensive vision as a player and even less so as a coach.

 

Game in game out I would honestly have to say that Max has been the hardest working player on the Sabres. I?m not saying he is the greatest defensively but he shows up hard every game. In fact this is the first season that he has really been lost at times or not putting forth the effort. He looks like a player who is unhappy.

 

This situation has obvious become personal just like the Hasek situation, the Peca Situation and the Drury Situation. Yea it doesn?t take players traded here too long to figure out the situation here.

 

The only fault is that of the Sabres not Max. If he was such a liability then why did it take you ten years to alienate him? If he was so bad defensively why has it taken this long to bench him? Why wasn?t he traded in his prime? What were/are the Sabres waiting for?

 

Now we hear that he has been healthy for ten days and the Sabres have not found a way to play him? My goodness, don?t try to showcase him before the trade deadline that would break my #@$@#$ Heart! ?But they can?t get anything for him they have tried and tried?.

Much in the same way that absolutely nobody wanted that defensemen we used to have that had two Stanley cup final appearances on his resume. (Was later traded for Coburn)

Much in the same way that nobody wanted that RW that used to score all those goals for us (I think he has played on the top line for the Pens all season.)

And on and on I could go. Yea Darcy you?re now approaching the twenty player mark in your tenure in Buffalo for players lost without so much as two rolls of tape and a jock strap in return.

 

The Sabres have absolutely no excuse. They have had one of the best forechecking forwards in the game and they have failed to provide a nurturing environment for this talent i.e. surrounding him with forwards to complement his style. Could you imagine what Max and Lafontaine would have done together? Or even Max and Howerchuck or max and a Doug Gilmour in his prime? As usual the blame falls on the Sabres staff for not solving the enigma of Maxim Afinogenov. I?m just getting started?

 

Great post! I Like Ruff the Coach but he is Wrong on Max! As for his play as a NHl'er....he was a bum!

[DR HOLLIDAY]

Great post! I Like Ruff the Coach but he is Wrong on Max! As for his play as a NHl'er....he was a bum!

 

Man talk about going overboard, Max finally played a good game, his first good game in a long time............His back checking and effort were brought about by Ruff...........Let hope he can keep it up.............As far a calling Lindy a bum as a player is also pretty stupid, he was a very important player for the Sabres............Yes, he wasn't Pat Lafontaine, but he was a very solid NHLer.

[Two or less]

Man talk about going overboard, Max finally played a good game, his first good game in a long time............His back checking and effort were brought about by Ruff...........Let hope he can keep it up.............As far a calling Lindy a bum as a player is also pretty stupid, he was a very important player for the Sabres............Yes, he wasn't Pat Lafontaine, but he was a very solid NHLer.

 

Good post. Anyone who calls Ruff's game "a bum" has no idea what their talking about. He was a very solid grinder.

 

As for Max, he was awesome tonight. I know we won't see this kind of Max every night because honestly, if we did, he'd be near a all-star. He was flying down he ice. He was helping out on defense. He was back checking. He was fighting on the boards. He was creating and causing trouble for Montreal. Afinogenov played one of his best games in his career last night for Buffalo. I know it's only a game but i will give the guy credit where it's due. The Roy, Paille, Max line was my favorite to watch and each time they were on the ice, i thought we might score.