Giveaways

[G.M.]

I have heard the Sabres winning percentage is actually better when he is in the lineup, yet he is now a defensive cancer that the team has cut out?

Lindy Ruff, Paul Hamilton, and others continue to talk about his giveaways. Yet the Sabres were still what 4th or 5th in goals overall last season? But suddenly this season Lindy wants to play a full on trap so Afinogenov is now the team whipping boy because he is the only Sabre that can?t play ?the system??

Many on this board say ?awe if he goes back into the lineup? blah blah blah Ill kill myself they don?t need him giving the puck away?.

Well don?t worry Max you?re in good company. Seems like the Sabres will move Derek Roy at the deadline, after all, he leads the team and is third in the league in giveaways. Washington?s Mike Green is second in the league in giveaways behind that other ?Bum? on Washington, Ovechkin. In fact the entire first page statistical query on giveaways on NHL.com contains most of the best players in the league. In fact I might just go on to say that there is a corollary between scoring chances and Giveaways. Is this impossible? Not really? Any player, of Max?s ilk, you know the type, (the type that is involved all the time and wants to make something happen) is simply carrying the puck more and tends to lose it more. If he is not good defensively then put him on a line with someone that is?

If you have a player you need to protect put a Dave Semenko on his wing.

Remember Punch brought in Robert for Martin and Perreault, not because of his offense, which was average before Buffalo, but for his defensive game.

The only problem with Max is that his coach does not like him and never has. Lindy was a great mucker and grinder in his day one of the best I have ever seen, but had very little offensive vision as a player and even less so as a coach.

 

Game in game out I would honestly have to say that Max has been the hardest working player on the Sabres. I?m not saying he is the greatest defensively but he shows up hard every game. In fact this is the first season that he has really been lost at times or not putting forth the effort. He looks like a player who is unhappy.

 

This situation has obvious become personal just like the Hasek situation, the Peca Situation and the Drury Situation. Yea it doesn?t take players traded here too long to figure out the situation here.

 

The only fault is that of the Sabres not Max. If he was such a liability then why did it take you ten years to alienate him? If he was so bad defensively why has it taken this long to bench him? Why wasn?t he traded in his prime? What were/are the Sabres waiting for?

 

Now we hear that he has been healthy for ten days and the Sabres have not found a way to play him? My goodness, don?t try to showcase him before the trade deadline that would break my #@$@#$ Heart! ?But they can?t get anything for him they have tried and tried?.

Much in the same way that absolutely nobody wanted that defensemen we used to have that had two Stanley cup final appearances on his resume. (Was later traded for Coburn)

Much in the same way that nobody wanted that RW that used to score all those goals for us (I think he has played on the top line for the Pens all season.)

And on and on I could go. Yea Darcy you?re now approaching the twenty player mark in your tenure in Buffalo for players lost without so much as two rolls of tape and a jock strap in return.

 

The Sabres have absolutely no excuse. They have had one of the best forechecking forwards in the game and they have failed to provide a nurturing environment for this talent i.e. surrounding him with forwards to complement his style. Could you imagine what Max and Lafontaine would have done together? Or even Max and Howerchuck or max and a Doug Gilmour in his prime? As usual the blame falls on the Sabres staff for not solving the enigma of Maxim Afinogenov. I?m just getting started?

[billsrcursed]

I hope you have an extra flame suit, buddy!!

 

You had me interested until you called A.O. a bum........

 

There's a common theme with Max, and it goes back further than this year. It's lack of scoring. This has been discussed numerous times here, especially with the recent comparisons of Max and Roy. It just boils down to production. Trust me, I was a Max fan even coming into this year. I kept thinking, like many others, that he would eventually buy into Lindy's system and become a productive member of the team. It's quite obvious at this point that it's not going to happen. Turnovers are tolerable granted there is SOME sort of positive production. Just look at any of your examples. Bringing up Green is just silly. The guy plays D and on top of that, he does something Max can't; scores goals.

 

Point at who you want to, but Max has been given multiple chances to play our system. He failed the Sabres, they didn't fail him, unless you count the Sabres not willing to allow a free-wielding maniac to skate around turning pucks over and drawing more offsides penalties than the Bills Defense the last 3 years combined..... all while not scoring goals, than ya, o.k., you're right.

[wjag]

I think there is a lot of truth in chances versus giveaways. The more you are involved in the play, the more likely you are to turn it over. The issue isn't his number of turnovers, its the way they happen. Max will rush the zone which requires the D to back off. Instead of attacking the net, he would go behind it. The D would collapse on him there and he would lose the puck. It happens way too many times.

 

Derek Roy loses the puck attacking the net, trying to split the D or make a pass. His turnovers this year are sky-high as well. I think he is getting a pass because he still has 20+ goals. Max for all his trying just wasn't scoring. All would have been forgiven if he could have just scored some goals. If Max had 15 or so goals now, Pominville and Hecht would be the ones garnering all the incoming flack on this board.

[Foligno's Nose]

There is still discusson around Max and his play as a Sabre???

This has been discussed ad nauseum.

 

Showcasing him for a trade???

C'mon.

Max is as good as done here in Buffalo.

If he sees the ice tommorrow night against Montreal, I would be shocked.

There is no positive reason for him to pull the blue and gold over his head again.

 

Despite brilliant flashes of offense over the years, the majority of his efforts were futile.

 

He should be being spoke of in the past tense.

 

Nice knowing you Max.

The 'crazy-legs' skating got me off my feet on more than one occasion, but ended up being nothing more than a circus act.

 

AMF.

[SabresFanInRochester]

In just these 4 our 5 posts, we have covered the good and the bad of Max. One thing that was not mentioned was his ability to draw a penalty. I see him drawing as many minors as Kaleta and Roy. With a team stale on 5-v-5 and a productive power play, maybe playing him is not a horrible idea.

 

So, perhaps he brings us a power play or two per game, but is that enough to offset the turnover that leads to the opposing team's golden opportunity? It is upsetting to see Max carry the puck into the zone, just to see it leave the zone without a real threat. Max has some pluses, and he is certainly hard working, but he has too many negatives.

 

Good luck Max.

[SwampD]

I see that you've conveniently left out +/- in your comparisons.

[deluca67]

If memory serves me correctly. I believe the Sabres also have a better record when Andrew Peters plays than when he is a healthy scratch.

[Eleven]

If memory serves me correctly. I believe the Sabres also have a better record when Andrew Peters plays than when he is a healthy scratch.

 

That may be. Of course, they tend to dress him for games against crappier teams.

[Kristian]

In just these 4 our 5 posts, we have covered the good and the bad of Max. One thing that was not mentioned was his ability to draw a penalty. I see him drawing as many minors as Kaleta and Roy. With a team stale on 5-v-5 and a productive power play, maybe playing him is not a horrible idea.

 

So, perhaps he brings us a power play or two per game, but is that enough to offset the turnover that leads to the opposing team's golden opportunity? It is upsetting to see Max carry the puck into the zone, just to see it leave the zone without a real threat. Max has some pluses, and he is certainly hard working, but he has too many negatives.

 

Good luck Max.

 

Or take a penalty.

 

Max - Feet like the wind, yet king of the "lazy horizontal stick" penalty.

 

I've been fed up with him for a long time, but what better way to let the rest of the team know that they need to start playing like they give a damn - Play Max.

[Stoner]

I have two things (Mom and Dad were sis and bro).

 

1. Carp should do a handy dandy chart of the Sabres' record with and without each player in the lineup, going back to 1970. OK, post-lockout. OK, just this season. I imagine it wouldn't be easy to do.

 

2. All NHL stats need to be looked at very skeptically. I mean, goals and assists can be trusted, but beyond that... buyer beware.

[deluca67]

That may be. Of course, they tend to dress him for games against crappier teams.

Are those not the teams that give the Sabres the most trouble?

[Patty16]

I have two things (Mom and Dad were sis and bro).

 

1. Carp should do a handy dandy chart of the Sabres' record with and without each player in the lineup, going back to 1970. OK, post-lockout. OK, just this season. I imagine it wouldn't be easy to do.

 

2. All NHL stats need to be looked at very skeptically. I mean, goals and assists can be trusted, but beyond that... buyer beware.

 

 

why?

[Bmwolf21]

I stopped reading right here:

But suddenly this season Lindy wants to play a full on trap so Afinogenov is now the team whipping boy because he is the only Sabre that can?t play ?the system??

[Bmwolf21]

Turnovers are tolerable granted there is SOME sort of positive production. Just look at any of your examples. Bringing up Green is just silly. The guy plays D and on top of that, he does something Max can't; scores goals.

 

Point at who you want to, but Max has been given multiple chances to play our system. He failed the Sabres, they didn't fail him, unless you count the Sabres not willing to allow a free-wielding maniac to skate around turning pucks over and drawing more offsides penalties than the Bills Defense the last 3 years combined..... all while not scoring goals, than ya, o.k., you're right.

Good post, especially these last two paragraphs.

 

I think there is a lot of truth in chances versus giveaways. The more you are involved in the play, the more likely you are to turn it over. The issue isn't his number of turnovers, its the way they happen. Max will rush the zone which requires the D to back off. Instead of attacking the net, he would go behind it. The D would collapse on him there and he would lose the puck. It happens way too many times.

Don't forget his drop passes to no one at the opponent's blue line, the blind cross-ice passes inside the opposition's zone, and the fact that most of the time his linemates look completely unsure of what he's going to do or where he is going to go with the puck, resulting in more turnovers and offsides.

[shrader]

I don't know why I'm responding to one of these completely unreadable posts, but if you really want an explanation of the differences between Afinogenov and Roy-Ovechkin-Green, here are some not so random numbers for you.

 

12

57

82

56

 

or

 

0.35

0.90

1.32

1.10

 

The first one looks a hell of a lot lower than the others, doesn't it?

 

And hell, for all I know, you may have actually addressed this point, but your long winded, incoherent ramblings are impossible to even skim through. I'd much rather read PA's latest ramblings about why he has changed denture creams 15 times in the past year.

[elcrusho]

....All these words....

 

 

so much to read....

 

 

I have a headache now!

[G.M.]

I hope you have an extra flame suit, buddy!!

 

You had me interested until you called A.O. a bum........

 

There's a common theme with Max, and it goes back further than this year. It's lack of scoring. This has been discussed numerous times here, especially with the recent comparisons of Max and Roy. It just boils down to production. Trust me, I was a Max fan even coming into this year. I kept thinking, like many others, that he would eventually buy into Lindy's system and become a productive member of the team. It's quite obvious at this point that it's not going to happen. Turnovers are tolerable granted there is SOME sort of positive production. Just look at any of your examples. Bringing up Green is just silly. The guy plays D and on top of that, he does something Max can't; scores goals.

 

Point at who you want to, but Max has been given multiple chances to play our system. He failed the Sabres, they didn't fail him, unless you count the Sabres not willing to allow a free-wielding maniac to skate around turning pucks over and drawing more offsides penalties than the Bills Defense the last 3 years combined..... all while not scoring goals, than ya, o.k., you're right.

 

I use the quotation marks around A O to show that is what the sabres would say. In much the same way that Green is not a "Bum" or Roy or Max for that matter, you missed my sarcasm.

[G.M.]

I think there is a lot of truth in chances versus giveaways. The more you are involved in the play, the more likely you are to turn it over. The issue isn't his number of turnovers, its the way they happen. Max will rush the zone which requires the D to back off. Instead of attacking the net, he would go behind it. The D would collapse on him there and he would lose the puck. It happens way too many times.

 

Derek Roy loses the puck attacking the net, trying to split the D or make a pass. His turnovers this year are sky-high as well. I think he is getting a pass because he still has 20+ goals. Max for all his trying just wasn't scoring. All would have been forgiven if he could have just scored some goals. If Max had 15 or so goals now, Pominville and Hecht would be the ones garnering all the incoming flack on this board.

 

I was not aware that you have done a statistical anaylisis on types of giveaways and where they occur relative to type, if you are guessing or you just saw a few blatent examples then your response is not based in logic but in pond scum. Listen if you give the puck up at the oponents blueline then that can produce odd man rushes. A giveaway in your own zone is equally bad but deep in the offensive zone would be the least serious out of all these cases!

[G.M.]

There is still discusson around Max and his play as a Sabre???

This has been discussed ad nauseum.

 

Showcasing him for a trade???

C'mon.

Max is as good as done here in Buffalo.

If he sees the ice tommorrow night against Montreal, I would be shocked.

There is no positive reason for him to pull the blue and gold over his head again.

 

Despite brilliant flashes of offense over the years, the majority of his efforts were futile.

 

He should be being spoke of in the past tense.

 

Nice knowing you Max.

The 'crazy-legs' skating got me off my feet on more than one occasion, but ended up being nothing more than a circus act.

 

AMF.

 

Then answer me this... Why has Darcy waited again for the 19th time go get absolutlely nobody in return. And if you believe that there has never been interest in Max then you do not know what you are talking about. BTW, why shouldnt he play he is better then 90 percent of the players on this team... He is probably the fourth best forward on the team.

 

But your right I mean the Sabres need scoring and we have lost the last three to the point were Vanek has to come back and play with a face shield because they are pressureing the living hell out of him... Not to mention the Sabres record in our last ten or the number of goals we have scored in the past three games.

[G.M.]

In just these 4 our 5 posts, we have covered the good and the bad of Max. One thing that was not mentioned was his ability to draw a penalty. I see him drawing as many minors as Kaleta and Roy. With a team stale on 5-v-5 and a productive power play, maybe playing him is not a horrible idea.

 

So, perhaps he brings us a power play or two per game, but is that enough to offset the turnover that leads to the opposing team's golden opportunity? It is upsetting to see Max carry the puck into the zone, just to see it leave the zone without a real threat. Max has some pluses, and he is certainly hard working, but he has too many negatives.

 

Good luck Max.

 

 

Again query giveaways on NHL.com all the best players are leading the league in giveaways!!!! git off the damn giveaways for goodness sake! :thumbsup:

[SwampD]

Again query giveaways on NHL.com all the best players are leading the league in giveaways!!!! git off the damn giveaways for goodness sake! :thumbsup:

Didn't you start this thread and call it Giveaways? :blink:

 

Don't worry, even after Max is gone, you can keep his poster on the ceiling over your bed. :wub:

[G.M.]

I see that you've conveniently left out +/- in your comparisons.

If you do a query on +- statistics on NHL.com you will find that the top teams players dominate in that category. So maybe the entire category of +- has more to do with the fact that if you are winning more games you must be scoring more goals, as a team, relative to your oponents... Correct? Moreover many of the league leaders are still in that first page of seach query when you do the +- query. Why is it that Green, the defenseman for Washington is leading in almost both categories. Maybe he is on the Ice with A O and is getting the benefit from all those goals scored....? The only problem with that is that, is that if A O is not on the first page of +- statistics yet AO is the league leader in giveaways and Green is second. How do you account for this?

 

Remember 45 percent of all statistics are meaningless lol. :rolleyes:

[Cereal]

If you do a query on +- statistics on NHL.com you will find that the top teams players dominate in that category. So maybe the entire category of +- has more to do with the fact that if you are winning more games you must be scoring more goals, as a team, relative to your oponents... Correct?

 

I haven't read most of what you've posted, but I see that you attempt to attribute Max's low +/- to the fact that he's not on a top team. But, you should acknowledge the fact that he has the worst +/- on THIS team, which implies that his low +/- contributes to the problem for THIS team... Correct?

[G.M.]

Good post, especially these last two paragraphs.

Don't forget his drop passes to no one at the opponent's blue line, the blind cross-ice passes inside the opposition's zone, and the fact that most of the time his linemates look completely unsure of what he's going to do or where he is going to go with the puck, resulting in more turnovers and offsides.

 

All the other Sabres are allowed to play through their slumps why not Max? Because Max was on the outs two years ago when Lindy took him off the Roy Vanek line and has not found any chemistry on other lines.

 

Lets suppose you are right, then why oh why have the dumb dumb Sabres waited again untill he was in the option year of a contract to try to have to deal him. See I don't care if Max plays or he does not... To me the player is an attribute, an asset. If at some point you decide that he does not fit the plan then he must be moved for compensation. The big deal here is that this is a guy that came up through the Sabres "system". Remember the year we went to the finals Roy wanted him in the lineup from Rochester because of the Sabres lack of scoring?

So Afinogenov has been here a long time. Drafted by Buffalo, developed by Buffalo they have had 7 or 8 years to do something with him and now will be lost without compensation, supposedly because their are no buyers for him. I have no doubt that if he went and played for Pittsburgh or any team with a number one center he would be explosive.

 

The Sabres have just given up on him and I don't think he wants to play for them either.

 

Why is all this so obvious to me and not Darcy?

[cdexchange]

He is probably the fourth best forward on the team.

 

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: