... Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 And perhaps you can explain the difference between Roy this past two seasons, and Max during the two (or more) seasons prior to those (05-06, 06-07).
LabattBlue Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 Gee, perhaps you could point out for me where I said they were the "same player". Maybe you could go back and figure out that I'm talking about both of them being "turnover factor(ies)" - and then explain to me how that has anything to do with the points on their stat sheets. And then bash your head against the wall a little more. I can tolerate some giveaways from players who are productive. You ever hear of risk versus reward?
nucci Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 Come on - they both do the same thing: either take it down the boards, turn around and lose it, or try and sneak it past a defender at the blue line and lose it. Then, of course, are those attempts at a pass through the slot that get intercepted. Our leading scorer and only player who generates any offense? Nice.
nucci Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 Gee, perhaps you could point out for me where I said they were the "same player". Maybe you could go back and figure out that I'm talking about both of them being "turnover factor(ies)" - and then explain to me how that has anything to do with the points on their stat sheets. And then bash your head against the wall a little more. You can criticize many on this team. I don't think Roy should be at the top of your list.
R_Dudley Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/story/593605.html While the league monitors the Flyer situation to see if they are manipulating the Briere injury to stay under the cap. Max says doctors cleared him since mid- February. The Sabres aren't anywhere near the cap, but they are violating the rules nonetheless and theoretically would be able to spend more to the cap because they left him on IR. Funny how the team plays by the rules when it suits their side of the story or what they want to accomplish. Interesting catch 22. I never thought about that angle. I do know it's well rumored league wide allot of GM's are looking at how Philadelphia is going to handle bringing him back because they clearly stashed him on the IR and even that last cosemetic surgery to just keep him there longer seemed pretty obvious... I was wondering if they would pull a some kind of trade w/him to try and cover it. Their problem is too many other GM's are really watching. IMHO Bflo's situation is different as no cap issues come into play and in my mind it's more of a players union grievance to me than league matter. Yep. If no one will take Max in trade, I say they release him outright and have a nasty, public, messy divorce complete with bickering through the press and dueling press conferences. At least it will take our attention off the crappy effort the Sabres are putting forth lately... While the frustrated fan in me says Yeah, I have to wonder if that type of publicity is really good for the team when it comes to signing free agents or getting players to waive their no trade clause. This team managment supposedly already has a pretty spotty record of handling players in the past. Not sure they really gets played outside of Buffalo the way your seeing it. Are you telling me that it wouldn't have been worth a shot to play Max for a game or two in the last week in order to spark a little interest. If there was another team dumb enough to give the Sabres a mid to late round pick, they weren't going to do it without seeing him in some recent game action. :wallbash: Again in line with what I said above, even if the guy is washed up with us he has been around the league awhile and is a recognized Player. IMHO I think it does us more good from a image and goodwill standpoint to treat him respectfully on the way out then make it look like what a few ex-players have said about this organization is true. I really think there is a right way and wrong way to do it and I hope we would stay classy and respectful in our handling of the whole thing because it's the right thing to do. We are not talking about Avery here.
carpandean Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 And perhaps you can explain the difference between Roy this past two seasons, and Max during the two (or more) seasons prior to those (05-06, 06-07). Max was on the best third line (lead by two highly skilled young kids) in the NHL behind two solid scoring lines in a league where the rules were tilted toward speed and dangling. Roy has been producing on a top line with a team that has limited offensive talent (certainly relative to 06-07) and with rules that aren't as finesse friendly. I can tolerate some giveaways from players who are productive. You ever hear of risk versus reward? Seriously. Unlike Max, Roy actually makes it work some of the time. He definitely seems to go through period where he tries the drag move a bit too much. When it works, it looks spectacular and he gets a great scoring chance, but he does need to pick his spots better. Perhaps, if he felt he was getting offensive support from anyone else on his line, he wouldn't try it as often.
Bmwolf21 Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 I can tolerate some giveaways from players who are productive. You ever hear of risk versus reward? BINGO. We'd all put up with Max's turnovers and other stupidity if he was constantly putting up points like he did in 05-06 and 06-07. When he's not scoring he's useless, not matter how much people try to point out "how much defenses have to respect his speed" or how much ice he supposedly opens up for his teammates.
Stoner Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 Max was on the best third line (lead by two highly skilled young kids) in the NHL behind two solid scoring lines in a league where the rules were tilted toward speed and dangling. Roy has been producing on a top line with a team that has limited offensive talent (certainly relative to 06-07) and with rules that aren't as finesse friendly. Did the rules change?
carpandean Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 Did the rules change? Well, not necessarily the rules themselves, but the enforcement of them did. Started in the playoffs of 2006-07.
SwampD Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 In sizzle's defense, I will say that since Vanek went out, it looks like Roy has changed his style a little. I'm sure it's because he feels he has to carry the team(because he does), but it looks like he is pressing a bit too hard and does resemble Max a little. Just a tiny tiny bit, but it's there.
Claude Balls Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 I hope he continue to sits, and if they don't plan on trading him, Darcy or Lindybetter hire someone to go Tanya Harding on his @$$ to keep him on the bench. Last thing they need right now is a turnover factory on the ice. He's no worse than half the guys right now. Tally, Lydman, Roy, Mac, Hecht, have all been playing like they are color blind lately.
... Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 BINGO. We'd all put up with Max's turnovers and other stupidity if he was constantly putting up points like he did in 05-06 and 06-07. When he's not scoring he's useless, not matter how much people try to point out "how much defenses have to respect his speed" or how much ice he supposedly opens up for his teammates. Well that's it - Roy is being defended because he's one of the only players putting up points this season (and that's not saying much). Where are those points now? He's had plenty of give-aways and has f*cked up many scoring chances this past several weeks. Everyone was alright with Max until the goals disappeared - how different is that from Roy these past several games? The goals have disappeared but the dainty failed plays have not.
nucci Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 Well that's it - Roy is being defended because he's one of the only players putting up points this season (and that's not saying much). Where are those points now? He's had plenty of give-aways and has f*cked up many scoring chances this past several weeks. Everyone was alright with Max until the goals disappeared - how different is that from Roy these past several games? The goals have disappeared but the dainty failed plays have not. Yes!! is that hard to understand? Are you judging Roy just from the last few games?
... Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 Yes!! is that hard to understand? Are you judging Roy just from the last few games? No. He's been this way all season. As turn-over factories go, he is no different than Max, right down to being defended because he's statistically productive. That's been my point all thread. Glad you see it.
carpandean Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 Yes!! is that hard to understand? Are you judging Roy just from the last few games? Plus, how many chances has Roy set up for others over the past few games. I've seen Roy set up both Pommer and Kotalik, only to have them hit the pipe or fire it wide. How many faceoffs has Max taken/won this season? Roy has take 1165 (32% of the team's faceoffs) and won 600 of them (50.6% wins.) How much time does Max spend killing penalties? Roy has averaged 2:36 of SHTOI (third on the team and second for forward; 3 seconds less than Pommer) on one of the top PK units in the league. While he hasn't produced points in the last three games, Roy has played 8:30 on the PK, helping the team kill 13 straight penalties. Starting to see why he gets a pass? No. He's been this way all season. As turn-over factories go, he is no different than Max, right down to being defended because he's statistically productive. That's been my point all thread. Glad you see it. Two differences: 1) His turnovers are usually at the tip of the rush, not when coming back to the other team's blue line after going around behind their net, so his are less likely to create odd man rushes the other way. 2) Roy's stats, not just for offense, but for his complete game, are far more impressive and consistent than Max's have ever been.
... Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 Starting to see why he gets a pass?Two differences: 1) His turnovers are usually at the tip of the rush, not when coming back to the other team's blue line after going around behind their net, so his are less likely to create odd man rushes the other way. 2) Roy's stats, not just for offense, but for his complete game, are far more impressive and consistent than Max's have ever been. He may be the best offensive player we have, but he is still a turn over machine. Why is that hard to grasp? This is like the point Labatt Blue was trying to make to me a couple of weeks ago regarding Ellis. If Ellis is a "model" of hard work on this team - then they're sunk. If Roy is the "model" of skilled offense, then they're sunk. Your offense can't keep turning over the puck or not finishing if the team expects to make the playoffs.
carpandean Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 He may be the best offensive player we have, but he is still a turn over machine. Why is that hard to grasp? This is like the point Labatt Blue was trying to make to me a couple of weeks ago regarding Ellis. If Ellis is a "model" of hard work on this team - then they're sunk. If Roy is the "model" of skilled offense, then they're sunk. Your offense can't keep turning over the puck or not finishing if the team expects to make the playoffs. As I said, I realize that he does try to do too much sometimes and that has lead to too many turnovers, but your best offensive players are always the biggest turnover machines because they try those moves that only they have the skill to pull off and that lead to great scoring chances. You forgive them because of the offense that they generate and the other things that they do. The league leader in giveaways? Alexander Ovechkin. Roy is number two, followed by Andre Markov, Mike Green, Ilya Kovalchuk, Mike Richards, Sheldon Souray, Sidney Crosby, Jason Spezza, Joe Thorton, Alexander Frolov, Brad Richards, Evgeni Malkin, ... All of those players are top offensive producers (forwards and defensemen.) And, before you say that Roy doesn't produce like those guys, he can and has. He was third in the NHL in points after the All-Star break last season behind only Ovechkin and Malkin. Even this season, after a slow injury-plagued (Lindy revealed this part-way through the season) start that saw his get just 5 points in the first 10 games, he has put up 52 points in the last 53 games. Max, on the other hand, doesn't produce anymore and hasn't since the perfect storm (linemates, NHL rules) that boosted is stats in 05-07.
... Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 As I said, I realize that he does try to do too much sometimes and that has lead to too many turnovers, but your best offensive players are always the biggest turnover machines because they try those moves that only they have the skill to pull off and that lead to great scoring chances. You forgive them because of the offense that they generate and the other things that they do. The league leader in giveaways? Alexander Ovechkin. Roy is number two, followed by Andre Markov, Mike Green, Ilya Kovalchuk, Mike Richards, Sheldon Souray, Sidney Crosby, Jason Spezza, Joe Thorton, Alexander Frolov, Brad Richards, Evgeni Malkin, ... All of those players are top offensive producers (forwards and defensemen.) And, before you say that Roy doesn't produce like those guys, he can and has. He was third in the NHL in points after the All-Star break last season behind only Ovechkin and Malkin. Even this season, after a slow injury-plagued (Lindy revealed this part-way through the season) start that saw his get just 5 points in the first 10 games, he has put up 52 points in the last 53 games. Max, on the other hand, doesn't produce anymore and hasn't since the perfect storm (linemates, NHL rules) that boosted is stats in 05-07. Okay, that makes sense and I can accept your reasoning. Thanks for taking a moment to educate me rather than being a presumptive like a lot of people here (and all over the internet) can be.
carpandean Posted March 1, 2009 Report Posted March 1, 2009 Okay, that makes sense and I can accept your reasoning. Thanks for taking a moment to educate me rather than being a presumptive like a lot of people here (and all over the internet) can be. No problem. I enjoy a good healthy discussion and appreciate that you are willing to listen to and even accept a point that is contrary to your own.
connee Posted March 2, 2009 Report Posted March 2, 2009 Are you telling me that it wouldn't have been worth a shot to play Max for a game or two in the last week in order to spark a little interest. If there was another team dumb enough to give the Sabres a mid to late round pick, they weren't going to do it without seeing him in some recent game action. :wallbash: If they had seen this scrub play they wouldn't have traded you for him. He'll be playing in some Russian league next year
G.M. Posted March 2, 2009 Report Posted March 2, 2009 :wallbash: Tell me something that was not intuitively obvious... So instead of trying to showcase him and increase his trade value they just give up entirely.
jimiVbaby Posted March 2, 2009 Report Posted March 2, 2009 :wallbash: Tell me something that was not intuitively obvious... So instead of trying to showcase him and increase his trade value they just give up entirely. Having Max play only ruins his trade value, isn't that obvious?
X. Benedict Posted March 2, 2009 Report Posted March 2, 2009 The problem the Sabres have is Max's reputation around the league as a super talented skater who has all the hockey sense of a head of lettuce. He's the guy that is giving all the other guys with herbaceous hockey heads a bad name.
carpandean Posted March 2, 2009 Report Posted March 2, 2009 Interestingly, they said on WGR550 that Max was playing on a line with Connolly during practice today.
spndnchz Posted March 2, 2009 Report Posted March 2, 2009 Reminds me of the song "Busta-move" for some reason.
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