It's Time to Give Up

[Casey D]

So say the Sullivans, the Gleasons and some on the board. We should be sellers at the deadline because things are hopeless, our team is too soft and too injured to do anything, so let's quit. Or better yet, let's quit and whine.

 

Ahh, I love the quitter's lament. We can't make a serious run at the Cup with this team, so let's quit and plan for the future. Ah the future. Planning for that championship some time in 2012. The words of the quitter burned into my Buffalo fan brain... "I'm not a pessimist, Iam a REALIST." So insightful, so noble.

 

Or the whiner's theme. I give up on the Sabres, they are too soft, not tough like me. They are not good enough, it makes me so unhappy and mad at them. And the logic these folks give to those who kind of like the team--"those of you mindless people who are satisfied with mediocrity, that's fine, but I expect so much more out of life than you--I accept nothing short of excellence--and I refuse to settle for less(like you)." So....discriminating.

 

Please spare me your negative garbage. If we only watched sports when our teams had a sure fire chance to win a championship, we would only have watched the Bills in 1990 and the Sabres in 2006-07. Oh wait, check that. We watch sports because it is fun, even though we know the chances of winning it all are always small. It is the thrill of the fight, the knowledge that if you make the playoffs, you might get hot--the "you never know."

 

But, the quitters say, don't you understand that we don't have Vanek and Miller--we had little chance before and none now, don't you know how important these guys are? No, we who continue to support the fight and have hope are profoundly stupid, and could not figure out that losing your two best and highest-paid players might make winning more difficult.

 

Here's what we think--anything worthwhile in life is hard to achieve. We are under no illusions that things will be easy for this group of hockey players, or that they are stamped with greatness. So what, they are still ours. And quitting on them should not be an option. You stick with it until the final buzzer. Anything less is unacceptable-- dare I say, soft.

 

To those negative people, I leave you with the words of the Sabres favorite group. the Goo-Goo Dolls-- "Your anger don't impress me. The world slapped in your face. It always rains like hell on the Loser's Day parade." To everyone else, soldier on. CD

[LabattBlue]

So say the Sullivans, the Gleasons and some on the board. We should be sellers at the deadline because things are hopeless, our team is too soft and too injured to do anything, so let's quit. Or better yet, let's quit and whine.

I'm not quitting on the team, but anyone who wants to go out and chase rental players at a ridiculous cost or believes that you have to keep guys like Kotalik and Tallinder(both of whom have no future with the team, but could bring a nice return at the deadline) need to get their heads out of the sand.

[deluca67]

So say the Sullivans, the Gleasons and some on the board. We should be sellers at the deadline because things are hopeless, our team is too soft and too injured to do anything, so let's quit. Or better yet, let's quit and whine.

 

Ahh, I love the quitter's lament. We can't make a serious run at the Cup with this team, so let's quit and plan for the future. Ah the future. Planning for that championship some time in 2012. The words of the quitter burned into my Buffalo fan brain... "I'm not a pessimist, Iam a REALIST." So insightful, so noble.

 

Or the whiner's theme. I give up on the Sabres, they are too soft, not tough like me. They are not good enough, it makes me so unhappy and mad at them. And the logic these folks give to those who kind of like the team--"those of you mindless people who are satisfied with mediocrity, that's fine, but I expect so much more out of life than you--I accept nothing short of excellence--and I refuse to settle for less(like you)." So....discriminating.

 

Please spare me your negative garbage. If we only watched sports when our teams had a sure fire chance to win a championship, we would only have watched the Bills in 1990 and the Sabres in 2006-07. Oh wait, check that. We watch sports because it is fun, even though we know the chances of winning it all are always small. It is the thrill of the fight, the knowledge that if you make the playoffs, you might get hot--the "you never know."

 

But, the quitters say, don't you understand that we don't have Vanek and Miller--we had little chance before and none now, don't you know how important these guys are? No, we who continue to support the fight and have hope are profoundly stupid, and could not figure out that losing your two best and highest-paid players might make winning more difficult.

 

Here's what we think--anything worthwhile in life is hard to achieve. We are under no illusions that things will be easy for this group of hockey players, or that they are stamped with greatness. So what, they are still ours. And quitting on them should not be an option. You stick with it until the final buzzer. Anything less is unacceptable-- dare I say, soft.

 

To those negative people, I leave you with the words of the Sabres favorite group. the Goo-Goo Dolls-- "Your anger don't impress me. The world slapped in your face. It always rains like hell on the Loser's Day parade." To everyone else, soldier on. CD

You don't win Stanley Cups with rhetoric or pom-poms. You build teams by making tough decisions in tough times. You make smart solid trades when the value of your assets is high and you convert your return into the best players you can by additional trades or drafting them.

 

If your goal is to just watch the games and be entertained without a care about the Stanley Cup that's your choice. Some of us have been around a lot longer and would like to see the Sabres return to being contenders. You don't accomplish that by hanging on to players that won't help you towards that goal.

 

You should try Kenny Rogers "You have to know when to hold them and know when to fold. Know when to walk away and know when to run". Right now Regier has a pair and the odds of making the playoffs is like betting against a full house. Sometime the pride needs to swallowed and chips need to be saved until you have a better hand.

[Claude_Verret]

If your goal is to just watch the games and be entertained without a care about the Stanley Cup that's your choice.

 

Yeah that's what the OP said. <_<

 

Some of us have been around a lot longer and would like to see the Sabres return to being contenders. You don't accomplish that by hanging on to players that won't help you towards that goal.

 

 

So the Sabres currently sit in 8th place. They could conceivably finish anywhere from 5th to 10th. I don't understand how that is not being a contender at this point in time. All the teams grouped together fighting for those last four spots are less than perfect as well. They all have deficiencies that I'm sure their GM's would like to address at the trade deadline. Darcy Reigier can't make trades in a vacuum. Other teams try to improve too and none of us know what goes on behind the scenes.

[AllPuckedOut]

I don't think evaluating what you see is a crime. What I saw on Tuesday night, was a team that played hard the majority of the game, and it still was not enough to win. I saw a team that could not not clear the puck out of their own zone. I saw a team who could not score, to offset the goals they let in. I would love this team to correct these issues. I also know they will need about 27 points to make the playoffs. They just are not good enough at this moment, and the season is running out quickly.

[bottlecap]

When you're soft you're going to get injured. The Sabres have too many key injuries to compete at this point.

Just give me two people - Bouwmeester and Shane Doan. I don't care who we give up to get them.

There should be a mass exodus at the trade deadline and next summer. The Sabres have

great team speed but too many Europussies and North American Fancy Dans and no jam. Let's get started!

[RayFinkle]

When you're soft you're going to get injured....

 

Happened to me once when I had too much to drink.

[Lethbridge Broncos]

LOL! kenny rogers? haha

 

 

 

 

quote name='DeLuca67' date='Feb 25 2009, 11:34 AM' post='139320']

You don't win Stanley Cups with rhetoric or pom-poms. You build teams by making tough decisions in tough times. You make smart solid trades when the value of your assets is high and you convert your return into the best players you can by additional trades or drafting them.

 

If your goal is to just watch the games and be entertained without a care about the Stanley Cup that's your choice. Some of us have been around a lot longer and would like to see the Sabres return to being contenders. You don't accomplish that by hanging on to players that won't help you towards that goal.

 

You should try Kenny Rogers "You have to know when to hold them and know when to fold. Know when to walk away and know when to run". Right now Regier has a pair and the odds of making the playoffs is like betting against a full house. Sometime the pride needs to swallowed and chips need to be saved until you have a better hand.

[RayFinkle]

I'm not quitting on the team, but anyone who wants to go out and chase rental players at a ridiculous cost or believes that you have to keep guys like Kotalik and Tallinder(both of whom have no future with the team, but could bring a nice return at the deadline) need to get their heads out of the sand.

With the playoff race so tight the Sabres would be crazy to unload Kotalik. He is the number 1 shoot out guy in the NHL. That is a skill which will could steal a couple of points toward the end of the season.

[carpandean]

With the playoff race so tight the Sabres would be crazy to unload Kotalik. He is the number 1 shoot out guy in the NHL. That is a skill which will could steal a couple of points toward the end of the season.

For a discussion of this topic, see this thread and, in particular, this post. Basically, I estimate that if we replaced Kotalik in the top three with your next best shooter, you'd lose 1-2 points over the course of a season. There are only 21 games left. If you can get something of real value in return (I wouldn't just give him away) and possibly add someone who is better during the other 60-65 minutes (admittedly, he's done a little better recently ... trying to avoid being traded?), then I'm all for it.

[nucci]

With the playoff race so tight the Sabres would be crazy to unload Kotalik. He is the number 1 shoot out guy in the NHL. That is a skill which will could steal a couple of points toward the end of the season.

You can't be serious.

[Kristian]

Yeah that's what the OP said. <_<

So the Sabres currently sit in 8th place. They could conceivably finish anywhere from 5th to 10th. I don't understand how that is not being a contender at this point in time. All the teams grouped together fighting for those last four spots are less than perfect as well. They all have deficiencies that I'm sure their GM's would like to address at the trade deadline. Darcy Reigier can't make trades in a vacuum. Other teams try to improve too and none of us know what goes on behind the scenes.

 

Yes, but this is in the Eastern Conference, where I only really see Boston having a chance against a stronger Western Conference.

 

For instance, I can't consider Philly a contender unless they adress their goaltending situation. Their skaters have had to make up for their shortcomings in that department all year, so unless they adress this at the deadline, I don't consider Philly a contender either, and they went to the ECF last year.

 

This isn't a dump on Buffalo, but we need to be rational and concentrate on becoming better down the stretch instead.

 

If they trade for someone under contract next year, we're talking a different scenario.

 

If the team can be improved by the deadline, then I'm all for it, but not if it doesn't involve an investment in the teams future.

[thesportsbuff]

You can't be serious.

 

???? Why not? He's right. Kotalik has been money in the shootout and it's not like you're going to get much for him anyway. I'll take his shootout skills and his bomb from the point on the powerplay and ride it. Who else is gonna score in the shootout, Derek Roy? Maybe if we start using the soccer-sized nets.

[LabattBlue]

Kotalik has been money in the shootout and it's not like you're going to get much for him anyway.

Did you not see what Montreal gave up for old man Schneider? What would you consider an acceptable return for Kotalik? A 2nd round pick? An above average prospect? I believe you could easily get either of these for Kotalik. You do realize it is very likely that he will not be back next year, right?

[Casey D]

I'm not quitting on the team, but anyone who wants to go out and chase rental players at a ridiculous cost or believes that you have to keep guys like Kotalik and Tallinder(both of whom have no future with the team, but could bring a nice return at the deadline) need to get their heads out of the sand.

I agree. And as Kristian states below, trades that can benefit us now and in the future should also be no-brainers. But to dump guys now--for say draft picks or guys that cannot contribute much now so it makes the team worse now--is quitting on the season.

[carpandean]

Who else is gonna score in the shootout, Derek Roy? Maybe if we start using the soccer-sized nets.

Roy is 4 for 7 this year. Pommer is 2 for 3 this year (and was 1 for 2 last year.) Stafford is 4 for 9.

 

Without Kotalik, you would see Derek and Jason taking more, and as they get more comfortable, you might see them actually improve. Besides, how many shootouts do you expect in the last 21 games? We've had 10 shootouts in 61 games (about 1 in 6, which is consistent with last year, too), so a rough estimate would be 3-4. Al would probably score in 2, maybe 3 of those; his replacement 1, maybe 2. The chances that the 1-2 misses that Al would have made would change the outcome is probably less than one in four (see my linked thread above), meaning that it would probably cost you 0-1 points. If we can get something decent in return, I'm taking it.

[thesportsbuff]

If we can get something decent in return, I'm taking it.

 

Did you not see what Montreal gave up for old man Schneider? What would you consider an acceptable return for Kotalik? A 2nd round pick? An above average prospect? I believe you could easily get either of these for Kotalik. You do realize it is very likely that he will not be back next year, right?

 

If Buffalo makes any trades, it better be for players to improve. I don't care about picks for the future, there's no telling how those could pan out. I'd rather take our chances with this roster than trade away half our team for picks. Who's gonna take Kotalik's spot for THIS season if we trade him for nothing? Will Peters become a full time player, or will we get to watch more little kids (Gerbe, Kennedy) run around and not produce? Of course, we could always bring Max back! None of those situations sounds like an improvement to me. And just to throw it out there, in my opinion we have WAY worse problems than Kotalik with our roster. Al is probably going to break 20 goals this year (assuming Lindy keeps using him on the PP), which is more than can be said for Hecht, Goose, Paille, MacArthur, etc.

 

And secondly, who are you (Labatt) to say who will and won't be back next year? Not trying to sound like a dick but nothing has been mentioned AT ALL by anyone credible about Al's (or anyone else's, really) contracts for next year. Just because someone is going to a UFA doesn't mean it's "very likely that [they] will not be back." You may be right with the shootout statistics but right now Kotalik is top 5 (maybe even top 3 still) in the league in the shootout since it was introduced, I doubt Roy and Pommer would consistently score at +50% rate if they got more chances. Maybe though.

 

just my two cents talk to you guys later

[...]

Roy is 4 for 7 this year. Pommer is 2 for 3 this year (and was 1 for 2 last year.) Stafford is 4 for 9.

 

Without Kotalik, you would see Derek and Jason taking more, and as they get more comfortable, you might see them actually improve. Besides, how many shootouts do you expect in the last 21 games? We've had 10 shootouts in 61 games (about 1 in 6, which is consistent with last year, too), so a rough estimate would be 3-4. Al would probably score in 2, maybe 3 of those; his replacement 1, maybe 2. The chances that the 1-2 misses that Al would have made would change the outcome is probably less than one in four (see my linked thread above), meaning that it would probably cost you 0-1 points. If we can get something decent in return, I'm taking it.

 

 

I don't disagree about the SO, statistically speaking Ko-ta-lick would only bring the Sabres another point. That could be offset by a player who actually played 60 minutes every game and won us a game in regulation rather than in the SO.

 

The only thing we'd miss would be his cannon shot from the point. Spacek has one, too, but it seems likely neither of these guys will be here next season. And, frankly, I don't trust JJ Pommers to take on that role. Who else can do that? The only other player with a reasonable cannon shot (from the point) that I've noticed is Butler - but his is no where the cannon of Spacek or Ko-ta-lick.

[LabattBlue]

And secondly, who are you (Labatt) to say who will and won't be back next year? Not trying to sound like a dick but nothing has been mentioned AT ALL by anyone credible about Al's (or anyone else's, really) contracts for next year. Just because someone is going to a UFA doesn't mean it's "very likely that [they] will not be back." You may be right with the shootout statistics but right now Kotalik is top 5 (maybe even top 3 still) in the league in the shootout since it was introduced, I doubt Roy and Pommer would consistently score at +50% rate if they got more chances. Maybe though.

 

just my two cents talk to you guys later

It's okay to sound like a dick, it is what it is. :nana:

 

Back to Kotalik. He is making 2.5 mil per year and will probably be looking for somewhere around 3.0 - 3.5 mil per year in FA. IMO...based on that, no way is he back with the Sabres. I was not making a blanket statement about all pending UFA's not being re-signed, just Kotalik.

 

Who would replace Kotalik if he was traded tomorrow? Mancari would, and I don't think there would be much of a dropoff knowing how Kotalik can fly under the radar for games at a time without being noticed.

 

Finally on the shootout...we all know there is no shootout in the playoffs, therefore, his number #1 asset can be discarded.