4 players I could live without

[2ForTripping]

Tempo? This is what the Sabres play without, even if Teppo is on the ice!

[inkman]

eveeryone knows max goes to the corner on rushes and looses the puck, that is NOT the point.

...but doesn't that completely negate all the "positives" that Max brings to the game?

 

Teppo Numminen is a defender for the Buffalo Sabres.

Sure who is Tempo?

[Bmwolf21]

There are a handful of players in the league that can push defenders back off their blue line and make them respect speed. Max has that ability. While he may not score end-to-end rushes, he makes defenses respect his penetrating style -- shifts for other guys are made easier. Also, on break outs, he keeps defenders on thier heels as he flys up ice with the puck. Look, the sabres have been stagnant on their breakouts -- they are slow. they havnt had too many odd man breaks. max can help that -- with his play -- and when he isnt even on the ice, b/k defenders have to be on the lookout. speed kills. and btw, eveeryone knows max goes to the corner on rushes and looses the puck, that is NOT the point.

 

Teppo Numminen is a defender for the Buffalo Sabres.

So let me try to understand this - Max's speed and "game-changing ability" is so good that defenders are constantly on their heels when he's in the lineup - even if he isn't on the ice?

 

So if Max being pushed into the corner and losing the puck isn't the point, then what is the point? I'm sure Roy or a couple others have enough speed to sprint wide into the corner and lose the puck.

 

Max has no "penetrating style." He enters the zone, gets pushed wide, and the other two forwards stand around, not knowing WTF he's going to do, then Max fires a blind cross-ice pass that gets intercepted.

 

Bottom line - this is Max we're talking about, not no.11. Max is an overrated head case/turnover machine whose tenure with the Sabres cannot end soon enough.

[deluca67]

So let me try to understand this - Max's speed and "game-changing ability" is so good that defenders are constantly on their heels when he's in the lineup - even if he isn't on the ice?

 

So if Max being pushed into the corner and losing the puck isn't the point, then what is the point? I'm sure Roy or a couple others have enough speed to sprint wide into the corner and lose the puck.

 

Max has no "penetrating style." He enters the zone, gets pushed wide, and the other two forwards stand around, not knowing WTF he's going to do, then Max fires a blind cross-ice pass that gets intercepted.

 

Bottom line - this is Max we're talking about, not no.11. Max is an overrated head case/turnover machine whose tenure with the Sabres cannot end soon enough.

I agree with everything you posted. Max does have speed. It is rendered useless because of his lack of control and inability to make quick & intelligent decisions on the fly.

[Fighting Chicken]

Max is an overrated head case/turnover machine whose tenure with the Sabres cannot end soon enough.

 

:worthy:

 

The only memorable thing that I remember Max doing in a positive way was making the one-legged pylon that is Derian Hatcher look even more immobile than normal and scoring that goal a couple of seasons ago.

 

His negatives far outweigh his positives and have done pretty much since he entered the league.

[shrader]

Bottom line - this is Max we're talking about, not no.11. Max is an overrated head case/turnover machine whose tenure with the Sabres cannot end soon enough.

 

Is he even rated at this point anymore? Currently, he's not even an NHL player. It's a pretty safe bet that he'll be spending the rest of the year on IR.

[inkman]

Is he even rated at this point anymore? Currently, he's not even an NHL player. It's a pretty safe bet that he'll be spending the rest of the year on IR.

Linky

 

Don't be so sure...

 

Three of the Sabres? four injured players ? defenseman Henrik Tallinder and forwards Paul Gaustad and Maxim Afinogenov ? practiced in a limited role. Only Gaustad is close to returning. Ruff said it?s possible the center could play Thursday when the Sabres visit Philadelphia.

 

Gaustad has missed four games with a separated shoulder. Afinogenov has missed 17 games with a groin injury, while Tallinder has been shelved for the past nine with a shoulder ailment.

 

?Max is getting close to returning to full practice,? Ruff said. ?Hank is just waiting on a little more strength. All three guys are doing good.?

 

The missing injured Sabre was Thomas Vanek, who broke his jaw eight days ago and had it wired shut last Sunday.

 

?After two weeks the wire comes off,? Ruff said. ?After that it would be within days where he can start maybe off-ice [training]. I don?t think he can start on ice yet, but it would be close to that.?

 

Vanek has visited his teammates since the injury.

 

?He?s been around,? Ruff said. ?Tough guy to talk to, though.?

[Bmwolf21]

Is he even rated at this point anymore? Currently, he's not even an NHL player. It's a pretty safe bet that he'll be spending the rest of the year on IR.

I doubt he's even rated by most fans and observers, but there seems to be a hardcore contingency of fans who push Max as a "superstar" despite all evidence to the contrary.

[Lethbridge Broncos]

You answered your own premise -- that is: ONLY Roy has the ability to take a puck into the zone (i.e., the corner ) and set up a play. Those types of rushes/ plays have an affect. Out west -- agaisnt the Flames and the DUCKS, they could not penetrate the blueline. Teams simply line up and the Sabres have no where to go with the puck. Drury and Briere were masters at this. They go full speed and know how to find a pocket or weak spot and set up a play. This keeps defenders honest and backs them off. max can do this.

 

we all know max is an enigma. he is pavil bure with out a heavy shot that he can get off in traffic. he was nver taught a backhand or how to pass with touch. but when the game starts, every defender on the other team knows where he is and he is respected -- b/k he pushes the puck up the ice.

 

you also have to remember the tempo of the sabres style. they are push the play and use their speed. the defense is to make good first passes and breakout of the zone on 4 or 5 man attacks. as such, max's style is important and he fits into the overall ruff scheme. no doubt his game has imperfections, but i'll take him over mair, macarthur, hecht, pominville, paille or ellis anyday.

 

 

 

 

 

So let me try to understand this - Max's speed and "game-changing ability" is so good that defenders are constantly on their heels when he's in the lineup - even if he isn't on the ice?

 

So if Max being pushed into the corner and losing the puck isn't the point, then what is the point? I'm sure Roy or a couple others have enough speed to sprint wide into the corner and lose the puck.

 

Max has no "penetrating style." He enters the zone, gets pushed wide, and the other two forwards stand around, not knowing WTF he's going to do, then Max fires a blind cross-ice pass that gets intercepted.

 

Bottom line - this is Max we're talking about, not no.11. Max is an overrated head case/turnover machine whose tenure with the Sabres cannot end soon enough.

[Bmwolf21]

You answered your own premise -- that is: ONLY Roy has the ability to take a puck into the zone (i.e., the corner ) and set up a play. Those types of rushes/ plays have an affect. Out west -- agaisnt the Flames and the DUCKS, they could not penetrate the blueline. Teams simply line up and the Sabres have no where to go with the puck. Drury and Briere were masters at this. They go full speed and know how to find a pocket or weak spot and set up a play. This keeps defenders honest and backs them off. max can do this.

 

we all know max is an enigma. he is pavil bure with out a heavy shot that he can get off in traffic. he was nver taught a backhand or how to pass with touch. but when the game starts, every defender on the other team knows where he is and he is respected -- b/k he pushes the puck up the ice.

 

you also have to remember the tempo of the sabres style. they are push the play and use their speed. the defense is to make good first passes and breakout of the zone on 4 or 5 man attacks. as such, max's style is important and he fits into the overall ruff scheme. no doubt his game has imperfections, but i'll take him over mair, macarthur, hecht, pominville, paille or ellis anyday.

No, I'm pretty sure that you tossed up a whole lotta fluff and didn't substantiate anything. I certainly didn't "answer my own premise" (especially since my post had two different questions). How exactly does Max's "game-changing" ability help the Sabres enter the zone? Was it another #61 that I've watched for the last three+ years consistently turn the puck over at the blue line?

 

If Max fits Ruff's scheme so well, why does Lindy continue to nail his ass to the bench when he's healthy?

 

Imperfections? Come on. This is bordering on ridiculous now. I'd take almost any of those guys you listed - especially Pominville, Paille, MacArthur - over Max every day of the week and wouldn't think twice about it.

 

I'm also wondering if you have actually watched Max's game in recent years, because Max does have good touch on his passes, and would be a much better player if he worked on his playmaking ability instead of trying to beat every team off the rush then throwing it blindly through the slot. It's been discussed on this board that Max has shown signs of being a very good passer, but always seems to be looking for the highlight reel play.

 

The comparison to Pavel Bure is a joke. Max is a Bure clone except for those pesky shooting and scoring things. But hey - he's fast. :rolleyes: Just like Tallinder is a Lidstrom clone - except for the staying healthy, scoring goals and winning multiple Norris Trophies part. But man - he plays defense.

 

You're dreaming if you think Max strikes one ounce of fear in any opponent. Max is nothing more than a flash-in-the-pan "new NHL" player who benefited enormously from playing on the 3rd line of a loaded offensive team for two years. Once Briere and Drury left and he had to play on the top-2 lines he was exposed as a fraud, since he can't play well against other team's better defenders, can't play well unless the refs go back to the "no touch" defense of the new NHL and can't stay healthy.

[nucci]

No, I'm pretty sure that you tossed up a whole lotta fluff and didn't substantiate anything. I certainly didn't "answer my own premise" (especially since my post had two different questions). How exactly does Max's "game-changing" ability help the Sabres enter the zone? Was it another #61 that I've watched for the last three+ years consistently turn the puck over at the blue line?

 

If Max fits Ruff's scheme so well, why does Lindy continue to nail his ass to the bench when he's healthy?

 

Imperfections? Come on. This is bordering on ridiculous now. I'd take almost any of those guys you listed - especially Pominville, Paille, MacArthur - over Max every day of the week and wouldn't think twice about it.

 

I'm also wondering if you have actually watched Max's game in recent years, because Max does have good touch on his passes, and would be a much better player if he worked on his playmaking ability instead of trying to beat every team off the rush then throwing it blindly through the slot. It's been discussed on this board that Max has shown signs of being a very good passer, but always seems to be looking for the highlight reel play.

 

The comparison to Pavel Bure is a joke. Max is a Bure clone except for those pesky shooting and scoring things. But hey - he's fast. :rolleyes: Just like Tallinder is a Lidstrom clone - except for the staying healthy, scoring goals and winning multiple Norris Trophies part. But man - he plays defense.

 

You're dreaming if you think Max strikes one ounce of fear in any opponent. Max is nothing more than a flash-in-the-pan "new NHL" player who benefited enormously from playing on the 3rd line of a loaded offensive team for two years. Once Briere and Drury left and he had to play on the top-2 lines he was exposed as a fraud, since he can't play well against other team's better defenders, can't play well unless the refs go back to the "no touch" defense of the new NHL and can't stay healthy.

Pretty hard to argue with any of this. Well said.

[Lethbridge Broncos]

I appreciate your opinion, and I think you are making an easier argument (i.e., it is a lot easier to jump on a bandwagon, while carrying a torch and pitchfork, and go after a guy with the rest of the forum here (it is easy to kick a dog when it is down)). And yea, agreed, this player does frustrate viewers -- b/k he can skate and create -- yet come up dry too often `on the boxscore. His stats are not that bad -- he is a pretty consistant 20 goal guy. He posted 70 points one season. but again, and this is hard to articulate, his speed and puck handling skills, on the rush -- at full speed, are the best on the team. when you see this club now -- they are flat. Do you watch the games? i notice you are in OHIO --i assume you get the center ice package or watch regularly? Max flys with the puck and defenders have to be cognizant of this. slow footed winger -- like the sabres have, dont scare anyone. again, in calgary and in anheim, the defenders simply stood at the line and didnt even move their feet to stop the sabres from trying to penetrate. there was no respect for the sabres transition game whatsoever. anyone that has ever seen max paly -- knows that he pushes defenders back on their heels as soon as he touches the puck. he is an absolute laser while witht the puck. subsequent shifts and waves of attack benefit from this attacking. max might not be scoring -- and might even be frustrating to watch -- but he has already created havoc for defenders that other offensive playmakers reap the rewards of.

 

byw, max is the closest thing to bure i have ever seen. their hunched over skating stirde, their ability ot stop on a dime, the way they carry themselves. max, while playing in the moscow youth league, never developed a wrist, snap or backhand. he never developed a touch pass or a soucer pass. his slap shot is deadly. bure had an incredibly fast release -- and played with GREAT playmakers and pivots who puck the puck in his wheel house a few times each game.

 

opinion will vary. but the origin of this post was who you would keep on the roster or get rid of. i will keep max for the values i have stated. i hear your point of view. i hope that this guy comes back and you see some production -- and watch the entire teams reaaction and the reaction of the defenders on the other side too. see if things loosen up a little.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, I'm pretty sure that you tossed up a whole lotta fluff and didn't substantiate anything. I certainly didn't "answer my own premise" (especially since my post had two different questions). How exactly does Max's "game-changing" ability help the Sabres enter the zone? Was it another #61 that I've watched for the last three+ years consistently turn the puck over at the blue line?

 

If Max fits Ruff's scheme so well, why does Lindy continue to nail his ass to the bench when he's healthy?

 

Imperfections? Come on. This is bordering on ridiculous now. I'd take almost any of those guys you listed - especially Pominville, Paille, MacArthur - over Max every day of the week and wouldn't think twice about it.

 

I'm also wondering if you have actually watched Max's game in recent years, because Max does have good touch on his passes, and would be a much better player if he worked on his playmaking ability instead of trying to beat every team off the rush then throwing it blindly through the slot. It's been discussed on this board that Max has shown signs of being a very good passer, but always seems to be looking for the highlight reel play.

 

The comparison to Pavel Bure is a joke. Max is a Bure clone except for those pesky shooting and scoring things. But hey - he's fast. :rolleyes: Just like Tallinder is a Lidstrom clone - except for the staying healthy, scoring goals and winning multiple Norris Trophies part. But man - he plays defense.

 

You're dreaming if you think Max strikes one ounce of fear in any opponent. Max is nothing more than a flash-in-the-pan "new NHL" player who benefited enormously from playing on the 3rd line of a loaded offensive team for two years. Once Briere and Drury left and he had to play on the top-2 lines he was exposed as a fraud, since he can't play well against other team's better defenders, can't play well unless the refs go back to the "no touch" defense of the new NHL and can't stay healthy.

[Grinder42]

I disagree. Lydman has been our best blueliner ALL season, as for 29 & 55. They are a complete waste of ice time. 29 must be suffering from "Fatcontractitis"

 

 

I agree with you on Lydman, he is the closest thing we have a to a physical Defensemen. He also has the ability to push the puck up the ice. He will make a poor clearing pass from time to time,but he leads the team in hits by a denfensemen every game.

[Bmwolf21]

I appreciate your opinion, and I think you are making an easier argument (i.e., it is a lot easier to jump on a bandwagon, while carrying a torch and pitchfork, and go after a guy with the rest of the forum here (it is easy to kick a dog when it is down)). And yea, agreed, this player does frustrate viewers -- b/k he can skate and create -- yet come up dry too often `on the boxscore. His stats are not that bad -- he is a pretty consistant 20 goal guy. He posted 70 points one season. but again, and this is hard to articulate, his speed and puck handling skills, on the rush -- at full speed, are the best on the team. when you see this club now -- they are flat. Do you watch the games? i notice you are in OHIO --i assume you get the center ice package or watch regularly? Max flys with the puck and defenders have to be cognizant of this. slow footed winger -- like the sabres have, dont scare anyone. again, in calgary and in anheim, the defenders simply stood at the line and didnt even move their feet to stop the sabres from trying to penetrate. there was no respect for the sabres transition game whatsoever. anyone that has ever seen max paly -- knows that he pushes defenders back on their heels as soon as he touches the puck. he is an absolute laser while witht the puck. subsequent shifts and waves of attack benefit from this attacking. max might not be scoring -- and might even be frustrating to watch -- but he has already created havoc for defenders that other offensive playmakers reap the rewards of.

 

byw, max is the closest thing to bure i have ever seen. their hunched over skating stirde, their ability ot stop on a dime, the way they carry themselves. max, while playing in the moscow youth league, never developed a wrist, snap or backhand. he never developed a touch pass or a soucer pass. his slap shot is deadly. bure had an incredibly fast release -- and played with GREAT playmakers and pivots who puck the puck in his wheel house a few times each game.

 

opinion will vary. but the origin of this post was who you would keep on the roster or get rid of. i will keep max for the values i have stated. i hear your point of view. i hope that this guy comes back and you see some production -- and watch the entire teams reaaction and the reaction of the defenders on the other side too. see if things loosen up a little.

I sure do watch the games. Not as many this year, thanks to a new work schedule - but considering Max hasn't played much I haven't missed anything. Until this year I had the Center Ice package every year since the lockout. I've seen more than enough to know that it's time to cut bait with Max.

 

Maybe the Sabres don't have the same speed they used, and don't have someone to back off the defense. That's probably true. That being said, it's no reason to keep an underperforming Max, because Max doesn't scare the opposition. He actually helps the opposition with his turnovers and predictability.

 

I can't get on board with the Bure comparisons. Bure was closer to Mogilny when he came into the league, but Bure was a bona fide superstar. Max is not. The only comparison between the two is they're both fast skaters and both Russian (and I think they both dated Russian tennis stars).

 

FWIW - Max is not a consistent 20-goal guy. Not even close. He's cracked 20 goals three times -- twice during the new NHL "all offense, all the time" period.

 

I can agree to disagree, and despite how it may look, I'm really not trying to pile on you or jump down your throat (or would it be keyboard?) I've just reached the end of my rope with him, and am tired of hearing people sing his praises without looking objectively at his body of work. Outside the "new NHL" he hasn't done ANYTHING to warrant the amount of blind support some continue to give him. I was one of his biggest fans when he came up from Rochester - I was actually in the press box that night, and saved all my stuff - game notes, lineup cards, etc - thinking I'd have some cool mementos of his NHL debut. But I just cannot support an overpaid, inconsistent one-trick pony who seems to get it every once in a while and puts together flashes of what he could do, only to slip back into his same old, same old game.

[Grinder42]

:worthy:

 

The only memorable thing that I remember Max doing in a positive way was making the one-legged pylon that is Derian Hatcher look even more immobile than normal and scoring that goal a couple of seasons ago.

 

His negatives far outweigh his positives and have done pretty much since he entered the league.

 

 

 

Max has had some productive seasons, and he still respected for his legs and stick handling. He does not have a great shot and he is overpaid. I for one would love to see this guy play on a team with more players similar to him. Ruff always puts him out there with slower checking line guys....not sure he is even worth a play if that is the role he plays. I don't think this team has ever mad an investment in developing this guy......honestly Ruff has a hard time getting people with better communication skills to buy into his system. Max is max....love him or hate him.....the guy has been a Sabre a long time!

 

I for one remember him scoring the wrist shot against the Rangers a few years ago in the playoffs! It is popular to beat up on Max.

[carpandean]

His stats are not that bad -- he is a pretty consistant 20 goal guy. He posted 70 points one season. but again, and this is hard to articulate, his speed and puck handling skills, on the rush -- at full speed, are the best on the team.

Outside of the two "new NHL" years, he has only scored 20 goals once. Those were also the only two years in which he scored above 0.5 points-per-game. He's a -30 over the last two years and back to less than 0.5 points-per-game. So, was his production during those years a result of what was going on around him or is it where he should be now if he stayed healthy and played with decent linemates?

 

What was different during 2005-06:

1) New NHL rules that gave more advantage to speedy skill guys.

2) Sabres had incredible scoring depth designed to take advantage of these rules.

3) He was on the best third-line in the NHL with Vanek and Roy.

 

Even his +19 in 2006-07 is questionable. He spent most of the season playing with Vanek and Roy, who were a +47 and +37, respectively. The only way that I can figure out how this happens would be if every time Max was early or late on a line change, they were scored on.

 

I did watch the other teams' defenses when Max played. Basically, they collapsed toward the middle (slot) and forced him to go down the boards, behind the net and back up the other side. At that point, he would turn it over and the other team would get the puck already moving in the other direction. He was racking up the turnovers and, unlike Derek Roy who also has been turning it over a little too much, he was doing it when it would result in a bad rush the other way. Max has special abilities that few players have, but he hasn't figured out how to use them after so many years. Mike Ryan is fast too, but he started the season in Russia.

[shrader]

Even his +19 in 2006-07 is questionable. He spent most of the season playing with Vanek and Roy, who were a +47 and +37, respectively. The only way that I can figure out how this happens would be if every time Max was early or late on a line change, they were scored on.

 

Injury plays a role in that one. +19 over 56 games projects to ~+28 over 82 games. There's still an obvious gap though. I never remember this stuff, but when he came back from his injury, did he return to the Vanek-Roy line or did Stafford hold onto that slot?