Pat Lafontaine

[cesna]

All I can say is... FINALLY!!! It's going to be a great night!

[LabattBlue]

All I can say is... FINALLY!!! It's going to be a great night!

There was a caller on WGR this morning who had a good point...why LaFontaine before guys like Schoenfeld and Mike Ramsey(along with Craig Ramsay may I add). Pat had a couple of electrifying seasons as a Sabre that will never be forgotten, but due to injuries, that was about it. Is that enough to have your jersey retired?

[cesna]

There was a caller on WGR this morning who had a good point...why LaFontaine before guys like Schoenfeld and Mike Ramsey(along with Craig Ramsay may I add). Pat had a couple of electrifying seasons as a Sabre that will never be forgotten, but due to injuries, that was about it. Is that enough to have your jersey retired?

 

"When Patty was playing in Buffalo, there was never a doubt in anyone's mind that he was the face of the Sabres." Nuff' said.

[Kevbeau]

Great point about Ramsey (Mike), although count me in as being glad Patty's getting his number retired. I guess using the same type of arguement. If Gare, why not Lafontaine.

[shrader]

LaFontaine is the greatest American born player of all time. Add that to all the great things he did on the ice and in the community and his number should be retired long before anyone else who's not currently up there.

[mphs mike]

I think the debate really focuses on the philosophy behind retiring a number. What is the criteria? I do not discount or minimize the contributions any individual with their jersey hanging had to the sabres organization, but, an argument could be made that ONLY #11 should have been retired. That argument essentially begins and ends with his contributions AND the fact that he wore NO OTHER nhl jersey. I'm glad #2 hangs, yet, in reality from a career perspective Tim Horton was a Maple Leaf, the circumstances of his death notwithstanding. Patty can easily be viewed as an Islander, although he had productive years in Buffalo and as a Ranger. Mike Ramsey had a couple of years elsewhere yet will be remembered as someone who stepped off the gold medal platform in Lake Placid and onto the Aud ice for 14 years. Schoeny and Gare are a couple of closer calls under this criteria.

 

Without referencing specific players I guess I just feel that a retired number must meet a higher criteria than a "hall of famer" or it loses its meaning. Since the Sabres criteria seems to be you get your number retired if you are a hall of famer and played in Buffalo they need to retire several more. We simply end up with players wearing #'s 49 - 99

[shrader]

Mike, by your criteria, the following players would never have their number retired in the cities listed:

-Ray Bourque in Boston

-Bobby Orr in Boston

-Wayne Gretzky in Edmonton (or LA)

-Gordie Howe in Detroit

[LabattBlue]

"When Patty was playing in Buffalo, there was never a doubt in anyone's mind that he was the face of the Sabres." Nuff' said.

"he was the face of the Sabres...nuff said"???? Gamewise, Pat played the equivalent of about 3 full seasons here in Buffalo. He was a great player during that time, but retiring a number should be reserved for the best players who spent a significant(if not all) portion of their career as a Sabre.

 

Craig Ramsay & Mike Ramsey deserve this honor much more than Pat, but obviously those in the Sabres front office are playing favorites and don't have very long memories of the 70's and 80's.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Stoner]

Pat didn't play here long enough, play enough games or lead this team to enough significant victories (one playoff series win in his career here) to merit having his number retired. Great guy, great player, just not great enough. 11. 2, sure... I'd retire the number of any player who dies while a member of the team. 39... that's another debate. The second-tier players, like LaFontaine, Robert, Martin, Gare, Ramsay, Ramsey, Schoenfeld and maybe a few others are perfectly suited to the team's Hall of Fame.

[LabattBlue]

LaFontaine is the greatest American born player of all time. Add that to all the great things he did on the ice and in the community and his number should be retired long before anyone else who's not currently up there.

Pat's actions in the community are to be commended, but in my eyes have no value in terms of whether a players number should be retired.

 

Pat didn't play here long enough, play enough games or lead this team to enough significant victories (one playoff series win in his career here) to merit having his number retired. Great guy, great player, just not great enough. 11. 2, sure... I'd retire the number of any player who dies while a member of the team. 39... that's another debate. The second-tier players, like LaFontaine, Robert, Martin, Gare, Ramsay, Ramsey, Schoenfeld and maybe a few others are perfectly suited to the team's Hall of Fame.

Even though I said Ramsey & Ramsay deserve their numbers retired BEFORE Pat, I agree with you that maybe none of them should have their numbers retired except for 11, 2 & 39(no debate on 39 from me. It's a no brainer) ;)

[Eleven]

Having a number retired on merit should be an honor even greater than election to the Hall of Fame in any sport. If the Hall of Famers are the "best," then those with retired numbers should be the "best of the best." It's for players who are irreplaceable. For the Sabres, only Perreault and Hasek fit the description.

 

Many if not most teams retire a number when an active player dies. Also a good idea, and it ties into the notion of irreplaceability: The team will not allow a new player to "replace" the dead one by wearing his number. Classy thing to do. So the retirement of Horton's number is proper as well.

 

I loved that French Connection line, but I can't say that 7 or 14--each of which was worn by many players after Martin and Robert retired--was proper. I loved watching Gare & LaFontaine, too, but their numbers shouldn't be retired.

 

Oh well. When I buy the team, I can run it my way, right?

[Corp000085]

Pat LaFontaine was the buffalo sabres. Injuries or not, a partial carreer with the sabres or not, the guy deserves to get his number retired.

 

 

Gare? Robert? Martin? Eh, maybe... But, lafontaine, horton, perrault, and hasek? YES.

 

Ramsey and shoney will get their due too.

[mphs mike]

Mike, by your criteria, the following players would never have their number retired in the cities listed:

-Ray Bourque in Boston

-Bobby Orr in Boston

-Wayne Gretzky in Edmonton (or LA)

-Gordie Howe in Detroit

 

 

Part of my "best of the best" criteria, meaning a retired number is something more deserving of the hall of fame, would include that the player be identified with the team retiring his number. Gordie Howe's number should only be retired in Detroit, not Hartford also, etc.

 

Simply my opinion on retiring numbers. I agree that every former Sabre mentioned in this thread is deserving of being in a Sabres Hall of Fame.

[Eleven]

Part of my "best of the best" criteria, meaning a retired number is something more deserving of the hall of fame, would include that the player be identified with the team retiring his number. Gordie Howe's number should only be retired in Detroit, not Hartford also, etc.

 

Yes. Maybe the Isles want to retire LaFontaine's sweater.

[gregkash]

it hurts me that people are questioning this.

 

Having your number retired from an organization means that you are irreplaceable to that organization.

 

Don't forget, Patty is the one that got this organization on track. No one gave a hoot before '93 and then every year after that we got progressively better.

 

Not to mention what he's done for the community. He's a hero and deserves to be flying from the rafters.

[Taro T]

I think the debate really focuses on the philosophy behind retiring a number. What is the criteria? I do not discount or minimize the contributions any individual with their jersey hanging had to the sabres organization, but, an argument could be made that ONLY #11 should have been retired. That argument essentially begins and ends with his contributions AND the fact that he wore NO OTHER nhl jersey. I'm glad #2 hangs, yet, in reality from a career perspective Tim Horton was a Maple Leaf, the circumstances of his death notwithstanding. Patty can easily be viewed as an Islander, although he had productive years in Buffalo and as a Ranger. Mike Ramsey had a couple of years elsewhere yet will be remembered as someone who stepped off the gold medal platform in Lake Placid and onto the Aud ice for 14 years. Schoeny and Gare are a couple of closer calls under this criteria.

 

Without referencing specific players I guess I just feel that a retired number must meet a higher criteria than a "hall of famer" or it loses its meaning. Since the Sabres criteria seems to be you get your number retired if you are a hall of famer and played in Buffalo they need to retire several more. We simply end up with players wearing #'s 49 - 99

I agree that having one's sweater retired should be an honor even greater than making the Hall of Fame. Pat LaFontaine absolutely meets my criteria for having his sweater retired. As someone else mentioned, he was the greatest US born player to ever play the game. He played 6 seasons in Buffalo and except for the cheap shot concussion season, he never averaged less than a point per game. He was the leader of the team from the 1st time he stepped on the the ice in the Aud against Hartford through the concussion. I don't hold taking a horribly cheap 2 hander across the face from Jamie Macoun or a knee injury against what the guy did for the Sabres.

 

IMO, only Gilbert, Dom, and Patty earned having their #'s retired by what they did on ice; and due to the circumstances I don't have a problem with #2 being retired. There is absolutely no way that #14 should be retired and I think the case is tenuous at best for #'s 7 and 18.

 

I wouldn't use Robert having his # retired as a criterion for other players to get theirs retired as his was only retired because he was a part of the FC. With Gare and Rico in the rafters, I'd expect to see the Ramsa(e)ys and Schoney up there as well in the near future; but I would prefer they didn't go up.

 

I disagree with your view that hall of famers automatically get their #'s retired as Fuhr and Hawerchuk will not very likely have their #'s retired by the Sabres nor will Clark Gillies. Hawerchuk played very well during most of his time with the Sabres but I don't think he played well enough to send 10 to the rafters.

 

Yes. Maybe the Isles want to retire LaFontaine's sweater.

They might because of what he meant to them on the ice, but I wouldn't want to have money on it. His leaving the Island was even more acrimonious than Dom's departure from Buffalo.

 

The main reason he only played 57 games in his 1st season in Buffalo was he held out and forced a midseason trade.

[shrader]

This is from a John Buccigross interview with LaFontaine earlier in the year. I think this story sheds a little more light on how much Pat meant to this team and to this city:

 

Q: What is your most vivid Buffalo memory?

 

 

A: I have so many great memories of my time in western New York. But I'd have to say the moment I'll always cherish is the night we closed the Aud [buffalo Memorial Auditorium]. I think it was April 14, 1996, and we had beaten the Whalers 4-1 that night. I had scored my 40th goal and the old barn was really rocking. After the game, a Sabres player from each generation was selected to take down the banners and wave to the fans. [Then-owner] Seymour Knox was already ill at the time, but he gave a very touching speech that ended, "Farewell, old friend."

 

I was honored to be the last player on the ice that night. I skated in, scored the last goal in the Aud, and then the lights went out. A solitary spotlight was on the goal and the puck. Fans began to fire up their lighters and we all enjoyed one last great moment. I had one of the stick boys grab the puck after the ceremony and the players had it plaqued up. At our end of year dinner, the guys on the team presented the puck to Seymour. He passed away about a month later.

 

When I retired from hockey four years later, Neil Smith and the Rangers had a wonderful farewell party for me at Madison Square Garden on St. Patrick's Day. Seymour's widow, Jean Knox, was one of the many wonderful people who attended that night, and she presented me with a special gift. When I opened the bag, it contained the plaque we had presented to Seymour just weeks before he passed. She said, "He would have wanted you to have this." It is one of the most cherished items from my career. "Farewell, old friend."

[mphs mike]

I absolutely love Patty - he is one of the classiest men to have worn a Sabres sweater. I am not criticizing the Sabres for raising his number to the rafters. Since he is up there, alnog with #18 I think it is already late to raise #'s 5,6,10 to the rafters. Frankly, I think that #'s 7 & 14 are there only because of the French Connection. With all these numbers what about Crozier's #1? Hajt's #24? and probably others.

If it were up to me I'd have retired #11, #2(due to circumstances), a replica of Punch's hat, and the Knox brothers initials (like they have done). Due to the circumstances of his departure, and the number of years he is apparently going to play in other uniforms even Dom's #39 becomes a question in my mind. Again, I'm not disturbed with who is hanging, I'd simply draw my line at a different place in the sand.

[LabattBlue]

it hurts me that people are questioning this.

 

Believe me I loved Pat as a player and I doubt anyone is questioning his play during his tenure here. It just boils down to differing opinions as to the criteria for having a number retired.

 

It's an honor that Pat is getting whether I like it or not, so kudos to him and his family for a great night.

 

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Stoner]

I for one can't wait for the day Miroslav Satan's 81 takes its rightful place among the pantheon of Sabre greats. Eight seasons, over 600 games, 237 goals and 253 assists in a defensive era on a very defensive-oriented team. Miro, a great penalty killer and entertaining player, was a key contributor on teams that won seven playoff series and played in two conference finals and, of course, one Cup final. Satan was also a very popular player and did his share in the community, I'm sure. Well, you can all see where I'm going here, but I'm only half kidding. I mean, if the Sabres are going to water down what it takes to have your number retired, Satan should definitely be in the running. A pretty strong argument can be made. In fact, if Miro were a North American boy, I would bet his number would one day be retired.

 

By the way, check out Satan's player number on his Yahoo! page: http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/666 How creepy is that!?

[Guest Guest]

There was a caller on WGR this morning who had a good point...why LaFontaine before guys like Schoenfeld and Mike Ramsey(along with Craig Ramsay may I add). Pat had a couple of electrifying seasons as a Sabre that will never be forgotten, but due to injuries, that was about it. Is that enough to have your jersey retired?

 

I say "no"....

 

The guy spent most of his career as an Islander. No matter how good he was - when a TEAM retires your sweater you better be the face of that organization for well over a decade. 6 years just does not cut it unless he dies while on the team.

[gregkash]

I think we're forgetting how long SIX years is... What Sabres have been on the team for six years....

 

I THINK only Jay McKee right now. Patty is my favorite player of all time, he was the heart and soul of this team, he was and is a face of the Sabres.. a model citizen, he averaged almost 2 points per game while playing with us. Over 6 years, that's pretty damn good. I cannot think of a finer person to represent the city of Buffalo.

 

When the children of Buffalo look to the rafters I am glad that they will see Lafontaine up there.

 

on a lighter note:::

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news?slug=sabr...ov=st&type=lgns

 

said, "Along with LaFontaine's family, on hand to participate in the festivities were the four players who previously had their numbers retired by the Sabres - Hall of Famers Tim Horton (2) and Gilbert Perreault (11), the former Buffalo captain's "French Connection" linemates Rick Martin (7) and Rene Robert (14), and Danny Gare (18)."....

 

I'm PRETTY SURE that Horton wasn't there, I could be wrong though.

[Guest Guest]

Due to the circumstances of his departure, and the number of years he is apparently going to play in other uniforms even Dom's #39 becomes a question in my mind. Again, I'm not disturbed with who is hanging, I'd simply draw my line at a different place in the sand.

 

Theres no effing doubt in my mind that Dominik Hasek's 39 will be in the rafters. Theres no plausible way that it will not be. He is arguably the greatest or 2nd greatest (to Perreault) player in franchise history. I could care less about his departure, the guy won a ton of vezinas, a few harts, and carried us on his "slinky of a spine".

 

As for the debate on Patty, I cannot make a fair assessment since of the aformentioned players, I only saw Mike Ramsey play(and no way is he going in the rafters). Based on what i've heard of Ramsay and Luce, they were great players and are worthy of consideration.

 

Pat LaFontaine is a hall of famer. He reenergized an organization and was the face of the franchise for 6 injury filled years. I could understand PA's theory of "watering down" the honor and such. If someone told me 6 months ago that LaFontaines jersey would never be retired (which i was under the assumption anyway. see Chris Taylor) I'd have no problem with it. However, Patty was my favorite Sabre growing up...and he is/was an ambassador for Buffalo and the Buffalo Sabres on top of being an excellent player. On the other hand... a guy like Hawerchuk was equally as heralded, scored a ton of points, a hall of famer, played 6 years here, and did stuff in the community as well and we haven't seen him in 10 years.

 

Do we put up Luce and Ramsay? Schoenfeld? Who knows.. Everyone in the rafters was an integral member of the Buffalo Sabres history. With the exception of Horton, they were the faces of the franchise in their respective time periods. Long story short, I think Patty should be up there but the next and only for a while should be Hasek.

[fushetti]

that last ramble was me.. sorry

[Eleven]

Re: Hasek--no question that his number should be retired, especially if the standard allows Gare's 18 to be retired.

 

Re: Ramsay--so we'll retire his No. 10, but the Sabre who wore that number and actually made it to the HOF doesn't merit it? Just silly.

 

Re: Schony--Loved him on D, but there's another No. 6 who was important, too, right? (Hint: he was good enough that we picked up the HOF No. 10 for him.)

 

Slippery slope when we start retiring jerseys because of popularity.