OT - Briere sent to the Minors

[SabresFan526]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news?slug=ap-f...p&type=lgns

 

:nana:

 

Sorry deluca, it's only a conditioning assignment and he does not have to clear waivers to be sent down or to be called up. But, I'm sure you would get a kick out of this since all you believe he's good for is AHL hockey, if that.

[darksabre]

So philly can do this with Briere but we can't do it with Connolly?

[SabresFan526]

So philly can do this with Briere but we can't do it with Connolly?

If I had to guess, I imagine this is more of a salary cap related move than anything else. Since Briere was on LTIR all this time, the Flyers who were already close to the cap with Briere in the lineup would exceed the cap if they simply brought him back given the injuries they've had at other positions. By rule, if Briere is on LTIR, they can exceed the cap by his cap hit. However, once he returns, they have to make moves to get back under the cap (similar to when the Sabres demoted Stafford during the 2006-2007 season when Connolly came back only to bring him back up for the playoff push). Since the doctors have cleared Briere to play, this gives the Flyers some time to stall to figure out what moves they can make to get back under the cap when they activate Briere. Since the Sabres are currently not in any danger of coming close to the cap, they don't need to do this for Connolly.

[carpandean]

If I had to guess, I imagine this is more of a salary cap related move than anything else. Since Briere was on LTIR all this time, the Flyers who were already close to the cap with Briere in the lineup would exceed the cap if they simply brought him back given the injuries they've had at other positions. By rule, if Briere is on LTIR, they can exceed the cap by his cap hit. However, once he returns, they have to make moves to get back under the cap (similar to when the Sabres demoted Stafford during the 2006-2007 season when Connolly came back only to bring him back up for the playoff push). Since the doctors have cleared Briere to play, this gives the Flyers some time to stall to figure out what moves they can make to get back under the cap when they activate Briere. Since the Sabres are currently not in any danger of coming close to the cap, they don't need to do this for Connolly.

While I agree that the Flyers are playing cap games, I don't believe that the Sabres didn't do it with Connolly simply because the cap didn't force them to. Timmy was never placed on LTIR, just IR, so I don't believe that it was an option. After hearing Lindy's comments about Timmy, I'm sure that he would have loved to have had Tim get back into game shape elsewhere. Of course, only having one PP in two games doesn't help his case.

 

Edit:

13.9 Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan. A Player who is on the Bona Fide Long-Term injury/Illness Exception as set forth in Article 50 may, with his consent, during the term of such Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception (but in no event during the first fourteen (14) calendar days and six (6) NHL Games), be Loaned on a Conditioning Loan (the "Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan") for a period not to exceed up to the longer of six (6) days and three (3) games, solely for the purpose of determining whether the Player is fit to play. If the Club determines that it needs more time to assess the Player's fitness to play, the Club may file a written request by facsimile with the Commissioner's Office, with a copy to the NHLPA, in accordance with Exhibit 3 hereof, to extend the Loan for an additional two (2) games. The Commissioner, upon good cause, may approve the onetime extension. The Commissioner's approval shall not be unreasonably withheld. A

Player on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan will continue to be listed on Injured Reserve and will not count against the Club's 23-man roster limit. The Club's Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception will continue until the Conditioning Loan ends, and his Paragraph 1 NHL Salary and Bonuses will continue to count against the Club's Upper Limit and the Players' Share during such time. The Commissioner may take whatever steps he deems necessary to investigate the circumstances under which a Player is placed on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Conditioning Loan. If he has reason to believe or determines that the Club has used the Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Conditioning Loan to evade Re-Entry Waivers or otherwise to Circumvent any provision of this Agreement, he may take other disciplinary action against the Club as he deems appropriate. A Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Conditioning Loan may be extended on one occasion. This procedure can only be used once during each period of time that the Player is on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury Exception.

[SabresFan526]

While I agree that the Flyers are playing cap games, I don't believe that the Sabres didn't do it with Connolly simply because the cap didn't force them to. Timmy was never placed on LTIR, just IR, so I don't believe that it was an option. After hearing Lindy's comments about Timmy, I'm sure that he would have loved to have had Tim get back into game shape elsewhere. Of course, only having one PP in two games doesn't help his case.

 

Edit:

That's partially true. He was not placed on LTIR at the start of the season. They did place him on LTIR on November 1st to create cap space due to the injury to Tallinder. Because Tallinder broke his arm, the Sabres needed the cap space to bring in some more skaters due to injuries. I'm having a difficult time finding a link to prove this since it was two and a half years ago, but here's one. If I get a better link, I'll update this post with a new link.

 

http://www.hockeyforum.com/buffalo-sabres/...nnolly-lti.html

 

Edit: Here's one more: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/stor...&id=2772900

 

Second, regarding your quote from the CBA, does this mean that he does not count against the cap while on the Conditioning Assignment or that he does? I'm having a difficult time understanding the legalese here.

[inkman]

This thread is like homework.

[carpandean]

That's partially true. He was not placed on LTIR at the start of the season. They did place him on LTIR on November 1st to create cap space due to the injury to Tallinder. Because Tallinder broke his arm, the Sabres needed the cap space to bring in some more skaters due to injuries. I'm having a difficult time finding a link to prove this since it was two and a half years ago, but here's one. If I get a better link, I'll update this post with a new link.

 

http://www.hockeyforum.com/buffalo-sabres/...nnolly-lti.html

 

Edit: Here's one more: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/stor...&id=2772900

 

Second, regarding your quote from the CBA, does this mean that he does not count against the cap while on the Conditioning Assignment or that he does? I'm having a difficult time understanding the legalese here.

Lol. I meant this year. He wasn't placed on LTIR this year. Really, all that matters is that he just came off of IR, not LTIR, so they couldn't send Timmy down for a few games to get his legs under him. Lindy said in an interview this morning that he expects him to take 5-6 games to get back up to speed, so it might have been nice to have him do that in Portland. Danny, on the other hand, did go on LTIR, so he could be sent down.

 

As for the legalese, I can't say that I understand 100% of it. In this case, though, I believe that I get the gist of it. Basically, when a player goes on LTIR, he stills counts toward the cap, but the team gets a cushion equal to that player's cap hit while on LTIR added on to the cap, so that they can bring in another player. This cushion continues during the conditioning stint.

[SabresFan526]

Lol. I meant this year. He wasn't placed on LTIR this year. Really, all that matters is that he just came off of IR, not LTIR, so they couldn't send Timmy down for a few games to get his legs under him. Lindy said in an interview this morning that he expects him to take 5-6 games to get back up to speed, so it might have been nice to have him do that in Portland. Danny, on the other hand, did go on LTIR, so he could be sent down.

 

As for the legalese, I can't say that I understand 100% of it. In this case, though, I believe that I get the gist of it. Basically, when a player goes on LTIR, he stills counts toward the cap, but the team gets a cushion equal to that player's cap hit while on LTIR added on to the cap, so that they can bring in another player. This cushion continues during the conditioning stint.

No worries at all. What I was referring to was during the 2006-2007 season when Timmy missed 80 of the 82 games due to concussion/jaw and the stress fracture. That season the Sabres put him on LTIR to get a cap cushion to bring players in because of Tallinder's injury and other injuries. Then when Timmy came back in Game 81 against the Washington Capitals, the Sabres were forced to demote Drew Stafford because had they not done that they would have been over the cap. After the final game of the regular season, they recalled Stafford before Game 1 of the Islanders series.

 

Thanks for the clarification. That was kind of my understanding as well, but I wasn't really sure. Makes sense, and seems like a stall tactic for the Flyers to get some added time to make some roster moves before actually activating Briere and having the cushion taken away. Still kind of funny as many of his detractors on this site must be thrilled that he's playing in the AHL, "where he belongs."

[Taro T]

While I agree that the Flyers are playing cap games, I don't believe that the Sabres didn't do it with Connolly simply because the cap didn't force them to. Timmy was never placed on LTIR, just IR, so I don't believe that it was an option. After hearing Lindy's comments about Timmy, I'm sure that he would have loved to have had Tim get back into game shape elsewhere. Of course, only having one PP in two games doesn't help his case.

 

Edit:

 

 

Lol. I meant this year. He wasn't placed on LTIR this year. Really, all that matters is that he just came off of IR, not LTIR, so they couldn't send Timmy down for a few games to get his legs under him. Lindy said in an interview this morning that he expects him to take 5-6 games to get back up to speed, so it might have been nice to have him do that in Portland. Danny, on the other hand, did go on LTIR, so he could be sent down.

 

As for the legalese, I can't say that I understand 100% of it. In this case, though, I believe that I get the gist of it. Basically, when a player goes on LTIR, he stills counts toward the cap, but the team gets a cushion equal to that player's cap hit while on LTIR added on to the cap, so that they can bring in another player. This cushion continues during the conditioning stint.

Except that exemption in 13.9 only applies to the 23 man roster limit. It doesn't give the team the ability to continue to exceed the cap by that player's salary. Both this paragraph (relevant sentence quoted)

The Club's Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception will continue until the Conditioning Loan ends, and his Paragraph 1 NHL Salary and Bonuses will continue to count against the Club's Upper Limit and the Players' Share during such time

 

and 50.10.d.iv when combined are very clear in that the salary of the player on conditioning loan does count against the cap.

 

50.10.d.iv

The replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for any Player(s) that replace(s) an unfit-to-play Player may be added to the Club's Averaged Club Salary until such time as the Club's Averaged Club Salary reaches the Upper Limit. A Club may then exceed the Upper Limit due to the addition of replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of Players who have replaced an unfit-to-play Player, provided, however, that when the unfit-to-play Player is once again fit to play (including any period such Player is on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to another league), the Club shall be required to once again reduce its Averaged Club Salary to a level at or below the Upper Limit prior to the Player being able to rejoin the Club. To the extent any Player who is unfit-to-play becomes fit to play during the period of the Roster Freeze set forth in Article 13, the provisions of this Section 50.10(d)(iv) requiring a Club to come back into compliance with the Payroll Range shall supersede the provisions of Article 13 restricting transactions during the Roster Freeze;

 

So, if, as everyone says, putting Danny on the roster would put the Phlyers over the cap; putting him on a conditioning assignment also puts them over the cap and gains them no time in deciding how to get back under the cap.

 

Either Danny doesn't put them over the limit, they've made another roster move, or the league is ignoring it's own rules. Or, because it's Ed Snyder requesting it, the league is now interpreting a player on conditioning loan as NOT having 'rejoined the Club.' (An interpretation which explicitly contradicts 13.9, btw, and is essentially "ignoring their own rules" once AGAIN.) Any combination of the 4 wouldn't surprise me. But 50.10.d.iv is why the Sabres didn't send Timmy on a conditioning assignment 2 years ago.

[carpandean]

Either Danny doesn't put them over the limit, they've made another roster move, or the league is ignoring it's own rules. Or, because it's Ed Snyder requesting it, the league is now interpreting a player on conditioning loan as NOT having 'rejoined the Club.' (An interpretation which explicitly contradicts 13.9, btw, and is essentially "ignoring their own rules" once AGAIN.) Any combination of the 4 wouldn't surprise me. But 50.10.d.iv is why the Sabres didn't send Timmy on a conditioning assignment 2 years ago.

The conditioning assignment is "solely for the purpose of determining whether the Player is fit to play." (from 13.9) Therefore, as long as a player is on the conditioning stint, the bolded part of 50.10.d.iv does not apply and the team continues to get the cushion that allows them to exceed the cap limit. Once he is determined to be fit to play, he rejoins the parent club's roster and they must, then, reduce their salary because they lose the cap cushion. The player's cap hit never actually stops being counted against the cap, even when on LTIR, but the team is allowed to exceed the cap by the cap hit of players on LTIR.

 

Right now, the Flyers actually have a cap hit of $67 million, about $10 million above the cap limit. However, they have a $13 million cap cushion for players on LTIR (Briere, Hatcher, Rajthe.)

[Taro T]

The conditioning assignment is "solely for the purpose of determining whether the Player is fit to play." (from 13.9) Therefore, as long as a player is on the conditioning stint, the bolded part of 50.10.d.iv does not apply and the team continues to get the cushion that allows them to exceed the cap limit. Once he is determined to be fit to play, he rejoins the parent club's roster and they must, then, reduce their salary because they lose the cap cushion. The player's cap hit never actually stops being counted against the cap, even when on LTIR, but the team is allowed to exceed the cap by the cap hit of players on LTIR.

 

Right now, the Flyers actually have a cap hit of $67 million, about $10 million above the cap limit. However, they have a $13 million cap cushion for players on LTIR (Briere, Hatcher, Rajthe.)

As you mention, the only way the player can be on a bona fide long-term injury/illness exception conditioning loan is to be sent down is "solely for the purpose of determining whether the Player is fit to play."

 

However, in 50.10.d.iv, the player on conditioning loan IS considered to be fit to play for purposes of salary cap. "(w)hen the unfit-to-play Player is once again fit to play (including ANY period such Player is on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to another league), the Club shall be required to once again reduce its Averaged Club Salary to a level at or below the Upper Limit prior to the Player being able to rejoin the Club."

 

Article 13 is stating that the player on the conditioning assignment doesn't count against the 23 man roster limit. Article 50 says that he does count against the salary cap and the team has to get back in compliance with it. And it actually says that Article 50's salary rules supersede Article 13's roster rules if they are in conflict due to roster freezes. (13.15 and 16.10 also agree that 50 supersedes 13.)

 

As mentioned in my previous post, I think the Phlyers are probably hanging their hat on Briere not having "rejoined" the team while he is on conditioning assignment.

 

(And, as an aside, you are correct in that the player's salary is still counted against the cap while he is on BF-LTIR. However, if a team is keeping a fit player off it's roster and on IR, it would appear to be in violation of Article 26 Circumvention.)

[carpandean]

However, in 50.10.d.iv, the player on conditioning loan IS considered to be fit to play for purposes of salary cap. "(w)hen the unfit-to-play Player is once again fit to play (including ANY period such Player is on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to another league), the Club shall be required to once again reduce its Averaged Club Salary to a level at or below the Upper Limit prior to the Player being able to rejoin the Club."

Hmm ... I somehow managed to skip right over the part in the parentheses. Have to love the circular logic. The conditioning loan is used to determine if an unfit-to-play player is fit to play, but a player on the conditioning loan is considered fit to play. So, what if they make the moves that need to in order to bring that player back and then, during the conditioning loan, determine that the player isn't actually fit?

 

I believe that you are right that the "prior to the Player being able to rejoin the Club" phrase is the key.

[Taro T]

Hmm ... I somehow managed to skip right over the part in the parentheses. Have to love the circular logic. The conditioning loan is used to determine if an unfit-to-play player is fit to play, but a player on the conditioning loan is considered fit to play. So, what if they make the moves that need to in order to bring that player back and then, during the conditioning loan, determine that the player isn't actually fit?

 

I believe that you are right that the "prior to the Player being able to rejoin the Club" phrase is the key.

Well, if they make the moves and the player isn't fit, then they are, I believe the correct term is, screwed. However, it also could be looked at as the player is by definition fit to play when he is playing, and by definition the player is playing when he's playing in the A. I think that is the interpretation the league was using when it came out of the lockout and it appears that they've tempered that view since then.

 

My guess is that the PA and the GM's went back to the league office sometime after the Connolly affair and convinced them to use the more liberal interpretation. If that guess is correct, it leads to several questions: why is the league providing big money clubs tools to skirt the salary cap (fairly obvious answers to that one); when did the league change it's interpretation (apparently in / after summer '07); did the Sabres try to use the exception themselves (quotes from Darcy at the time imply they did but I don't recall anything explicitly stated to that effect); how would the league handled it had the Sabres put Timmy on a conditioning assignment and then found out he couldn't play; how will the league handle it if Briere (who scored a goal and an assist in his 1st rehab game IIRC) decides he isn't ready to go, especially if he miraculously is healthy after the trade deadline +/or regular season ends?

 

EDIT: What a shock, my new 3,000th post is regarding the CBA.

[carpandean]

Well, if they make the moves and the player isn't fit, then they are, I believe the correct term is, screwed. However, it also could be looked at as the player is by definition fit to play when he is playing, and by definition the player is playing when he's playing in the A. I think that is the interpretation the league was using when it came out of the lockout and it appears that they've tempered that view since then.

Because the team would be - as you say - screwed, I tend to prefer the more liberal definition even though it came after we could use it. Since the conditioning loan is specifically described as being only to determine if the player is fit to play, then I can't see how it can be interpreted that he is fit to play while on the conditional loan. There are time limits on the duration and it even says something about the commissioner taking any steps necessary to verify that the system isn't being abused, so why not wait until the player has been determined to be fit through the conditioning loan before making the team clear cap space.