LabattBlue Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Sour...ne-Doan/1/18796
SabresFan526 Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 That is just laughable. I can't stop laughing after reading that. Why would Phoenix, a team fighing for the playoffs, give up their captain and best player? There is nothing the Rangers or Buffalo could offer that should convince Maloney of giving up Doan. Unless Buffalo's sending Vanek or Roy or Pominville, I see no way Phoenix would give up Doan, and knowing how much Darcy gets enamored with his own players, there's no way Darcy would offer Vanek or Roy or Pominville to anyone. What a ridiculous rumor. If he had said Reinprecht that would have been believable but not Doan. This rumor by Eklund just insults most people's intelligence.
stenbaro Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 I dont get to watch Phoenix play to much so I dont know alot about Doan other than whats reported about him..I have heard that Stafford is well liked by 99 so maybe it has some kinda legs to it..It would probably take a player like Roy or Pominville and Stafford at least to get a player with his reputation..
tom webster Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 That is just laughable. I can't stop laughing after reading that. Why would Phoenix, a team fighing for the playoffs, give up their captain and best player? There is nothing the Rangers or Buffalo could offer that should convince Maloney of giving up Doan. Unless Buffalo's sending Vanek or Roy or Pominville, I see no way Phoenix would give up Doan, and knowing how much Darcy gets enamored with his own players, there's no way Darcy would offer Vanek or Roy or Pominville to anyone. What a ridiculous rumor. If he had said Reinprecht that would have been believable but not Doan. This rumor by Eklund just insults most people's intelligence. I doubt that Doan is coming to Buffalo, but don't be surprised if Doan, Jokinen and Morris move in cost cutting moves by the Coyotes...
SabresFan526 Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 I doubt that Doan is coming to Buffalo, but don't be surprised if Doan, Jokinen and Morris move in cost cutting moves by the Coyotes... While I have heard about the financial woes of the Coyotes, would it not make more sense for them to try and make the playoffs to see if they can get some payroll-less revenue? On a per game basis, making the playoffs does tend to be profitable since you don't have to pay players. I know how they have to subsidize parking for their arena which makes absolutely no sense, but I can't imagine that will cut so much into the profitability of home playoff gates. Still, if that is the case, that's a sorry state of affairs because they have a good team this year that's fighting for the playoffs.
tom webster Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 While I have heard about the financial woes of the Coyotes, would it not make more sense for them to try and make the playoffs to see if they can get some payroll-less revenue? On a per game basis, making the playoffs does tend to be profitable since you don't have to pay players. I know how they have to subsidize parking for their arena which makes absolutely no sense, but I can't imagine that will cut so much into the profitability of home playoff gates. Still, if that is the case, that's a sorry state of affairs because they have a good team this year that's fighting for the playoffs. If you believe LQ, because of the new CBA, the playoffs, while still profitable, actually only add about $500K per game as opposed to the $1 to $1.25 they used to bring. If that is true, then replacing Doan, Jokinen and Morris with less expensive players saves more then they could make unless they went all the way to the Finals.
rickshaw Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 This was the last time Buffalo made a trade, in season, with it not being the trade deadline. Feb 25, 2003 Vaclav Varada and a 5th round pick in 2003 entry draft to Ottawa Senators for Jakub Klepis. Doan will not be heading here, unless it's at the deadline. But I doubt that is gonna happen.
Kristian Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 That is just laughable. I can't stop laughing after reading that. Why would Phoenix, a team fighing for the playoffs, give up their captain and best player? There is nothing the Rangers or Buffalo could offer that should convince Maloney of giving up Doan. Unless Buffalo's sending Vanek or Roy or Pominville, I see no way Phoenix would give up Doan, and knowing how much Darcy gets enamored with his own players, there's no way Darcy would offer Vanek or Roy or Pominville to anyone. What a ridiculous rumor. If he had said Reinprecht that would have been believable but not Doan. This rumor by Eklund just insults most people's intelligence. And least of all a guy like Doan, who seems to personify the exact opposite of what Darcy wants in a hockey player.
Chief Enabler Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 And least of all a guy like Doan, who seems to personify the exact opposite of what Darcy wants in a hockey player. I have to disagree here. Doan is a holy roller nuts and bolts player with the "intangible" quality to him. I believe he was signed for his sense of charector leadership to build a team around by PHX. I would gladdly hand over Stafford, a 1st rounder and some change on this one. wishful thinking :thumbsup:
Kristian Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 I have to disagree here. Doan is a holy roller nuts and bolts player with the "intangible" quality to him. I believe he was signed for his sense of charector leadership to build a team around by PHX. I would gladdly hand over Stafford, a 1st rounder and some change on this one. wishful thinking :thumbsup: I never said I wouldn't want him here, only that Darcy seems to avoid players with his qualities. Would gladly give up what you mentioned for him.
SDS Posted January 11, 2009 Report Posted January 11, 2009 I never said I wouldn't want him here, only that Darcy seems to avoid players with his qualities. Would gladly give up what you mentioned for him. I'm sure you would build up a pretty good hatred of him after the 1st game. I have complete faith in you.
SabresFan526 Posted January 11, 2009 Report Posted January 11, 2009 If you believe LQ, because of the new CBA, the playoffs, while still profitable, actually only add about $500K per game as opposed to the $1 to $1.25 they used to bring. If that is true, then replacing Doan, Jokinen and Morris with less expensive players saves more then they could make unless they went all the way to the Finals. A couple of things. First, I don't believe LQ (I never believe LQ on most things). Second, in terms of revenue if we assume the average ticket price for a playoff game is about $100/seat (which is a very conservative estimate given their regular season pricing), and the capacity of jobing.com arena for hockey is 17,799. This gives you revenue of about $1,779,900. Then, you must add concessions. Concessions have a cost but is always net profitable. Assume on average about $20/seat in contribution per game (some people buy, some don't) and that get's you another $355,980. You're looking at about $2.1 million in net revenue from playoff gates. This assumes a sellout, which we assume to be unlikely in Phoenix. If we assume that they generate about 15000 in ticket sales per games and assume all else equal, you're looking at $1.5 million in ticket gates plus $300k in concessions which gets about $1.8 million in net revenue from one playoff game. Now, they have an idiotic parking scheme where according to an article in espn.com, they lose about $50,000/game on parking that they have to pay to the city of Glendale instead of earning about $240K/game that most teams earn from parking. So, you include that, net revenue from one playoff game is about $1.3 million for the Coyotes. Assume maybe 15% goes into the NHL escrow for bonus payments made to players from the NHL bonus pool, etc., and the Coyotes really earn $1.105 million/playoff game in profit since they do not have to pay the players. In the best case scenario as a 7th seed and they make it to the Stanley Cup Finals, they will earn $13.26 million, which will go a long way against their expected $20 million loss. Assume they make it to the second round and get about 6 home games and you're looking at $6.63 million. If what you say is true, then the Coyotes would save about $11.891 million in total payroll savings against Doan, Jokinen and Morris if all three are traded. The calculation is based on how many days of payroll they save remaining after the trade deadline plus their 2009-2010 savings. Since Morris is a UFA after this year, the only savings on him is how much they save after the trade deadline. Additionally, the problem with what you propose is that you must assume the savings would be offset by players they would either get back in trades or player's they would promote from the AHL. Additionally, by rule, they must meet the NHL salary floor as well. So, the real savings for the Coyotes probably is only about $4-5 million in cost cutting just to meet the salary floor given where they currently are in payroll. Given that, I think you're better off trying to make a run for the playoffs with the guys you've got instead of trading away your stars. I'm sorry, but school has not yet started and I've always loved the business aspect of sports. I love business in general, I'm total business geek and sadly it's my passion aside from the Sabres, so I have fun doing this kind of stuff. Sorry to bore you. Feel free to poke holes in my assumptions and let me know what you think is more realistic and we can further the debate.
SabresFan526 Posted January 11, 2009 Report Posted January 11, 2009 FWIW, here's another rumors site that's saying the Coyotes may be buyers at the trade deadline and not sellers. I am a bit more inclined to believe these guys than Eklund as they have a pretty good record in the past and their rumors don't seem to be too ludicrous. http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/phx090109.html
cilevel Posted January 11, 2009 Report Posted January 11, 2009 I doubt that Doan is coming to Buffalo, but don't be surprised if Doan, Jokinen and Morris move in cost cutting moves by the Coyotes... Doan has a NMC and I doubt they would do that until the end of the season if they go into full out sell mode. They are in the playoff picture for the first time in years so I place absolutely no stock in the rumour. Maybe I'm colored by the fact that I live here, but I doubt they do anything stupid like trade their best players right now.
Kristian Posted January 11, 2009 Report Posted January 11, 2009 I'm sure you would build up a pretty good hatred of him after the 1st game. I have complete faith in you. Think what you want, it's not that it matters to me at the end of the day. Either way I'm not getting suckered into getting personal with you or anyone else, and wish you a good day.
stenbaro Posted January 12, 2009 Report Posted January 12, 2009 Now he has Stafford to Vancouver for Kesler...Wouldnt mind this pipedream.. http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Rumo...st-Star/1/18827
deluca67 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Posted January 12, 2009 Now he has Stafford to Vancouver for Kesler...Wouldnt mind this pipedream..http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Rumo...st-Star/1/18827 Are the Sabres holding out until they add Luongo to the deal? Luongo & Kesler for Stafford? Seems even to me. :rolleyes:
Patty16 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Posted January 12, 2009 A couple of things. First, I don't believe LQ (I never believe LQ on most things). Second, in terms of revenue if we assume the average ticket price for a playoff game is about $100/seat (which is a very conservative estimate given their regular season pricing), and the capacity of jobing.com arena for hockey is 17,799. This gives you revenue of about $1,779,900. Then, you must add concessions. Concessions have a cost but is always net profitable. Assume on average about $20/seat in contribution per game (some people buy, some don't) and that get's you another $355,980. You're looking at about $2.1 million in net revenue from playoff gates. This assumes a sellout, which we assume to be unlikely in Phoenix. If we assume that they generate about 15000 in ticket sales per games and assume all else equal, you're looking at $1.5 million in ticket gates plus $300k in concessions which gets about $1.8 million in net revenue from one playoff game. Now, they have an idiotic parking scheme where according to an article in espn.com, they lose about $50,000/game on parking that they have to pay to the city of Glendale instead of earning about $240K/game that most teams earn from parking. So, you include that, net revenue from one playoff game is about $1.3 million for the Coyotes. Assume maybe 15% goes into the NHL escrow for bonus payments made to players from the NHL bonus pool, etc., and the Coyotes really earn $1.105 million/playoff game in profit since they do not have to pay the players. In the best case scenario as a 7th seed and they make it to the Stanley Cup Finals, they will earn $13.26 million, which will go a long way against their expected $20 million loss. Assume they make it to the second round and get about 6 home games and you're looking at $6.63 million. If what you say is true, then the Coyotes would save about $11.891 million in total payroll savings against Doan, Jokinen and Morris if all three are traded. The calculation is based on how many days of payroll they save remaining after the trade deadline plus their 2009-2010 savings. Since Morris is a UFA after this year, the only savings on him is how much they save after the trade deadline. Additionally, the problem with what you propose is that you must assume the savings would be offset by players they would either get back in trades or player's they would promote from the AHL. Additionally, by rule, they must meet the NHL salary floor as well. So, the real savings for the Coyotes probably is only about $4-5 million in cost cutting just to meet the salary floor given where they currently are in payroll. Given that, I think you're better off trying to make a run for the playoffs with the guys you've got instead of trading away your stars. I'm sorry, but school has not yet started and I've always loved the business aspect of sports. I love business in general, I'm total business geek and sadly it's my passion aside from the Sabres, so I have fun doing this kind of stuff. Sorry to bore you. Feel free to poke holes in my assumptions and let me know what you think is more realistic and we can further the debate. $20 per seat is high, the avg in the NFL is 12-15 per seat, i know bc ive worked on a stadium proposal, so assume for this NHL purpose 10-12 per seat. And with concessions the amount the team makes seriously depends on the lease, some team make more per dollar sold than others. so out of the 10-12 per seat the team might only get 30%, others get more, remember you subcontract the concessions out, always. ANd with the NHL teams alwasy get hosed on parking, most arenas dont have their own lots like the Bills so parking revenue varies greatly as well. As phoenix is a relatively new franchise they might still be paying a lease on their arena too. Very good assessment though.
SabresFan526 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Posted January 12, 2009 $20 per seat is high, the avg in the NFL is 12-15 per seat, i know bc ive worked on a stadium proposal, so assume for this NHL purpose 10-12 per seat. And with concessions the amount the team makes seriously depends on the lease, some team make more per dollar sold than others. so out of the 10-12 per seat the team might only get 30%, others get more, remember you subcontract the concessions out, always. ANd with the NHL teams alwasy get hosed on parking, most arenas dont have their own lots like the Bills so parking revenue varies greatly as well. As phoenix is a relatively new franchise they might still be paying a lease on their arena too. Very good assessment though. Thanks for the comments. Since you've done this before, it sounds like the team really makes on average about $3/seat in contribution profit on concessions? If you do the math and assume again 15,000 seats for a playoff game for the Coyotes, you're probably able to add about $45,000 in profit to the team. So, based on my previous post, the revised number is probably around, $1.545 million/playoff game in ticket sales and concessions. After taking out the 50K as part of their lease for parking, your back at about $1.5 million and then taking out the 15% escrow to the NHL for the playoff bonus pool, you're now at about $1.275 million/playoff game. Seems like the P&L would still make sense for home playoff gates than trading away your best players since they won't have player payroll to deal with during the playoffs which is the biggest cost for any team. As for your other points, this is quite strange, I read an article on espn.com and apparently the Coyotes not only get no revenue from parking, they are actually subsidizing parking and have to pay $50K/game to the city of Glendale. Parking is a net loss for the Coyotes instead of a source of revenue like for most teams. I think this is where they end up losing the most money and why they are in dire straits financially, or at least one of the many reasons for it.
deluca67 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Posted January 12, 2009 $20 per seat is high, the avg in the NFL is 12-15 per seat, i know bc ive worked on a stadium proposal, so assume for this NHL purpose 10-12 per seat. And with concessions the amount the team makes seriously depends on the lease, some team make more per dollar sold than others. so out of the 10-12 per seat the team might only get 30%, others get more, remember you subcontract the concessions out, always. ANd with the NHL teams alwasy get hosed on parking, most arenas dont have their own lots like the Bills so parking revenue varies greatly as well. As phoenix is a relatively new franchise they might still be paying a lease on their arena too. Very good assessment though. The Coyotes actually pay for the parking. They were talking about it on WGR (it may have been the NHL network) a week or so ago. The Coyotes pay for the parking then they charge back the fans.
gregkash Posted January 12, 2009 Report Posted January 12, 2009 A couple of things. First, I don't believe LQ (I never believe LQ on most things). Second, in terms of revenue if we assume the average ticket price for a playoff game is about $100/seat (which is a very conservative estimate given their regular season pricing), and the capacity of jobing.com arena for hockey is 17,799. This gives you revenue of about $1,779,900. Then, you must add concessions. Concessions have a cost but is always net profitable. Assume on average about $20/seat in contribution per game (some people buy, some don't) and that get's you another $355,980. You're looking at about $2.1 million in net revenue from playoff gates. This assumes a sellout, which we assume to be unlikely in Phoenix. If we assume that they generate about 15000 in ticket sales per games and assume all else equal, you're looking at $1.5 million in ticket gates plus $300k in concessions which gets about $1.8 million in net revenue from one playoff game. Now, they have an idiotic parking scheme where according to an article in espn.com, they lose about $50,000/game on parking that they have to pay to the city of Glendale instead of earning about $240K/game that most teams earn from parking. So, you include that, net revenue from one playoff game is about $1.3 million for the Coyotes. Assume maybe 15% goes into the NHL escrow for bonus payments made to players from the NHL bonus pool, etc., and the Coyotes really earn $1.105 million/playoff game in profit since they do not have to pay the players. In the best case scenario as a 7th seed and they make it to the Stanley Cup Finals, they will earn $13.26 million, which will go a long way against their expected $20 million loss. Assume they make it to the second round and get about 6 home games and you're looking at $6.63 million. If what you say is true, then the Coyotes would save about $11.891 million in total payroll savings against Doan, Jokinen and Morris if all three are traded. The calculation is based on how many days of payroll they save remaining after the trade deadline plus their 2009-2010 savings. Since Morris is a UFA after this year, the only savings on him is how much they save after the trade deadline. Additionally, the problem with what you propose is that you must assume the savings would be offset by players they would either get back in trades or player's they would promote from the AHL. Additionally, by rule, they must meet the NHL salary floor as well. So, the real savings for the Coyotes probably is only about $4-5 million in cost cutting just to meet the salary floor given where they currently are in payroll. Given that, I think you're better off trying to make a run for the playoffs with the guys you've got instead of trading away your stars. I'm sorry, but school has not yet started and I've always loved the business aspect of sports. I love business in general, I'm total business geek and sadly it's my passion aside from the Sabres, so I have fun doing this kind of stuff. Sorry to bore you. Feel free to poke holes in my assumptions and let me know what you think is more realistic and we can further the debate. What about employee salaries, costs for opening the arena, maintaining ice, all the staff that that takes, the electricity alone for the event, The added costs for travel in the playoffs for the team, etc...etc... playoffs aren't pure profit.
Two or less Posted January 12, 2009 Report Posted January 12, 2009 No thanks on Kesler, but i would love Doan. Obviously that is a pipe dream. I do think we have the pieces, but i think it would cost too much. We're looking at Clarke MacArthur since Phoenix needs a power forward, and Jhonas Enroth, since they don't have any real solid goaltender of the future. And that still wouldn't be enough. Maybe they can include a expiring contract like Max and a draft pick. Who knows. But Doan a Sabre would be a dream come true, so much so, the minute i'd learn his number in Buffalo i'd order his jersey!
SabresFan526 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Posted January 12, 2009 What about employee salaries, costs for opening the arena, maintaining ice, all the staff that that takes, the electricity alone for the event, The added costs for travel in the playoffs for the team, etc...etc... playoffs aren't pure profit. Agreed, and I don't think the playoffs are pure profit. But, a lot of those costs are incurred no matter what. Employee salaries are a fixed cost that are paid throughout the year, not just during the season just like energy and electricity as the building is used for other things and not just hockey. The biggest variable cost is the player payroll which is paid on a per game basis per the CBA for the regular season. A good analogy would be manufacturing a product. There are all sorts of fixed costs such as electricity and capital that goes into the manufacturing plant, and then there are variable costs associated with each product you make mainly the materials that go into each individual product. The fewer the products you make, the less your variable cost, but that has no impact on your fixed cost structure as those costs you would incur whether you made zero products or 1 million products. Same thing in hockey, the variable cost is player payroll as all the other costs are fixed costs that you have no matter what. So when looking at things from a contribution perspective, you want to look at the variable costs and come playoff time, because there is no player payroll, the contribution margin substantially increases to the team than during the regular season. Carp can probably back me up on this as he's a PhD in this kind of stuff. Carp, please weigh in. No matter what, the point is if you make the playoffs your profit margin increases on a per game basis substantially more than during the regular season. Think about it, against every game, you are paying (assuming a team has $47 million in payroll) $573K per game just in player payroll. If you assume lower ticket prices for regular season vs. playoffs and the $573K in player payroll during the regular season, it's not even guaranteed that your making a profit on a per game basis because if few people come to the games, you end up losing money on the game. Come playoff time, if you don't have the variable cost associated with players, there is a high likelihood that your contribution is profitable. So, from a financial standpoint, as a team, you are still better off making the playoffs rather than trading away your highest paid players, which you can only do within reason because you still have to hit the salary floor, which this year is about $40 million, which was the original point of the debate in the first place.
tom webster Posted January 13, 2009 Report Posted January 13, 2009 A couple of things. First, I don't believe LQ (I never believe LQ on most things). Second, in terms of revenue if we assume the average ticket price for a playoff game is about $100/seat (which is a very conservative estimate given their regular season pricing), and the capacity of jobing.com arena for hockey is 17,799. This gives you revenue of about $1,779,900. Then, you must add concessions. Concessions have a cost but is always net profitable. Assume on average about $20/seat in contribution per game (some people buy, some don't) and that get's you another $355,980. You're looking at about $2.1 million in net revenue from playoff gates. This assumes a sellout, which we assume to be unlikely in Phoenix. If we assume that they generate about 15000 in ticket sales per games and assume all else equal, you're looking at $1.5 million in ticket gates plus $300k in concessions which gets about $1.8 million in net revenue from one playoff game. Now, they have an idiotic parking scheme where according to an article in espn.com, they lose about $50,000/game on parking that they have to pay to the city of Glendale instead of earning about $240K/game that most teams earn from parking. So, you include that, net revenue from one playoff game is about $1.3 million for the Coyotes. Assume maybe 15% goes into the NHL escrow for bonus payments made to players from the NHL bonus pool, etc., and the Coyotes really earn $1.105 million/playoff game in profit since they do not have to pay the players. In the best case scenario as a 7th seed and they make it to the Stanley Cup Finals, they will earn $13.26 million, which will go a long way against their expected $20 million loss. Assume they make it to the second round and get about 6 home games and you're looking at $6.63 million. If what you say is true, then the Coyotes would save about $11.891 million in total payroll savings against Doan, Jokinen and Morris if all three are traded. The calculation is based on how many days of payroll they save remaining after the trade deadline plus their 2009-2010 savings. Since Morris is a UFA after this year, the only savings on him is how much they save after the trade deadline. Additionally, the problem with what you propose is that you must assume the savings would be offset by players they would either get back in trades or player's they would promote from the AHL. Additionally, by rule, they must meet the NHL salary floor as well. So, the real savings for the Coyotes probably is only about $4-5 million in cost cutting just to meet the salary floor given where they currently are in payroll. Given that, I think you're better off trying to make a run for the playoffs with the guys you've got instead of trading away your stars. I'm sorry, but school has not yet started and I've always loved the business aspect of sports. I love business in general, I'm total business geek and sadly it's my passion aside from the Sabres, so I have fun doing this kind of stuff. Sorry to bore you. Feel free to poke holes in my assumptions and let me know what you think is more realistic and we can further the debate. a) I assume we both know that their $20 million loss is mostly paper losses so they really aren't trying to cover any mounting losses. b) For the sake of the argument, I will use your numbers. 1) An owner looking to get out is probably more inclined to take the $4.5 million in guarnateed savings over the remote likelihood of making $6.65 million by going six or seven games deep in two playoff rounds against Detroit and San Jose. 2) New ownership would probably be more inclined to start its regime with little to no long term high end contracts. c) It far from bores me. I love this stuff and if I had the time, I would go through your analysis point by point.
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