tom webster Posted June 21, 2009 Report Posted June 21, 2009 As for Hamilton and its effect on Buffalo. a) Remember, LQ's stating the % of revenue attributed to Southern Ontario is the first statement leading to a final indemnification agreement. There is no way you will ever hear the team publicly state that there will be no noticeable effect. It is in their best interests to paint the worst possible scenario. b) It is ludicrous to suggest that everyone that now spends their money in Buffalo will suddenly switch their buying power to Hamilton. c) As long as they reel in the platinum pricing, a team in Hamilton will guarantee at least 9 sell outs per year once they are moved into Buffalo's division. d) Buffalo will likely use the negotiations to open up more of the Ontario market to their television network. e) Competition might force a change in the status quo mentality. f) Evidence suggest that while the area still has plenty of issues, there seems to be a steady influx of people spending their entertainment dollars on sports. g) I am sure that all those people that laugh at Carolina's inability to sell tickets will surely buy tickets just to show those rednecks.
deluca67 Posted June 21, 2009 Report Posted June 21, 2009 As for Hamilton and its effect on Buffalo. a) Remember, LQ's stating the % of revenue attributed to Southern Ontario is the first statement leading to a final indemnification agreement. There is no way you will ever hear the team publicly state that there will be no noticeable effect. It is in their best interests to paint the worst possible scenario. b) It is ludicrous to suggest that everyone that now spends their money in Buffalo will suddenly switch their buying power to Hamilton. c) As long as they reel in the platinum pricing, a team in Hamilton will guarantee at least 9 sell outs per year once they are moved into Buffalo's division. d) Buffalo will likely use the negotiations to open up more of the Ontario market to their television network. e) Competition might force a change in the status quo mentality. f) Evidence suggest that while the area still has plenty of issues, there seems to be a steady influx of people spending their entertainment dollars on sports. g) I am sure that all those people that laugh at Carolina's inability to sell tickets will surely buy tickets just to show those rednecks. Don't take this as a insult :rolleyes: I agree with you 100%. Solidifying this region as a premier hockey market can only help the Sabres. This team can desperately use another regional rival. I feel the only reason the Sabres would be against it is that it would force Status Quo to change. Status Quo has become lazy and out of touch with the fans of the Buffalo Sabres. This current roster doesn't reflect this area or the fans one bit. Fans want a tough, hard nosed team that works hard every night. Not this current bunch of wusses.
Stoner Posted June 21, 2009 Report Posted June 21, 2009 Yeah, I'm with DeLuca. I'm loving Point e). f) is interesting too. Note that entertainment spending usually takes off in a recession. People go to movies in droves. Escapism. It's why I don't really buy the notion that because the city of Buffalo is poor, there can't be an NHL franchise here that makes money. The market isn't as poor as the city. And besides, really, you only need 18,000+ customers. Don't tell me the market is so poor, it can't produce that many customers. TV ratings and merchandise sales are already gold. Certainly what is missing is the huge corporate dollars for advertising and suites. I think I lost my train of thought...
nfreeman Posted June 21, 2009 Report Posted June 21, 2009 Again...There is no history of any relocated professional sports team having a negative impact on a neighboring franchise. There is a ridiculous abundance of hockey fan/ ticket buyers in the 'Golden Horseshoe' area. More than enough to go around. Allowing Balsillie into the league along with his billions would be a boon to league. An additional boost to this hockey region, redefining a new rivalry amongst the pro teams. Let the man bring the team to the Hammer. Lighten-up nay-sayers. Embrace the prospect that would provide a pro team to millions of other hockey fans like ourselves. Phoenix has had their opportunity. The experiment is over in the desert. I couldn't agree more. I really don't see what the big deal is with a team in Hamilton. And I just don't see how having a passionate NHL owner is a bad thing. Maybe Sabres fans just fear the unknown. I think the Orioles have had a more negative impact on the Orioles than the Nationals have. As for Hamilton and its effect on Buffalo. a) Remember, LQ's stating the % of revenue attributed to Southern Ontario is the first statement leading to a final indemnification agreement. There is no way you will ever hear the team publicly state that there will be no noticeable effect. It is in their best interests to paint the worst possible scenario. b) It is ludicrous to suggest that everyone that now spends their money in Buffalo will suddenly switch their buying power to Hamilton. c) As long as they reel in the platinum pricing, a team in Hamilton will guarantee at least 9 sell outs per year once they are moved into Buffalo's division. d) Buffalo will likely use the negotiations to open up more of the Ontario market to their television network. e) Competition might force a change in the status quo mentality. f) Evidence suggest that while the area still has plenty of issues, there seems to be a steady influx of people spending their entertainment dollars on sports. g) I am sure that all those people that laugh at Carolina's inability to sell tickets will surely buy tickets just to show those rednecks. Don't take this as a insult :rolleyes: I agree with you 100%. Solidifying this region as a premier hockey market can only help the Sabres. This team can desperately use another regional rival. I feel the only reason the Sabres would be against it is that it would force Status Quo to change. Status Quo has become lazy and out of touch with the fans of the Buffalo Sabres. This current roster doesn't reflect this area or the fans one bit. Fans want a tough, hard nosed team that works hard every night. Not this current bunch of wusses. While I also like point (e), I think you are kidding yourselves if you don't think a team in Hamilton would seriously hurt the Sabres. Yes, the Sabres have a devoted fan base. It's the same fan base that stayed away in droves in the early 2000s when the team almost went bankrupt (with a payroll in the $25MM range, ie half of where it is now). Even now, when they are selling out most of their games, they are reportedly losing real money (according to this fairly crappy article in Business First, anyway). The Sabres have to walk a very fine line to stay above water. They don't have a huge reservoir of wealthy hockey fans clamoring to buy tickets, like the Rangers, Flyers, Leafs, etc. They have to squeeze out as much revenue as they can, wherever they can. This is why items like variable pricing and smaller FO staff are a permanent part of the picture. And it's why they can't just write off the Southern Ontario market. That 15-20% chunk of their revenues is part of their bone marrow. If a new team in Hamilton takes a big piece of it away -- as it inevitably would -- the Sabres could go from just barely viable to terminal. That's just the truth.
deluca67 Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 While I also like point (e), I think you are kidding yourselves if you don't think a team in Hamilton would seriously hurt the Sabres. Yes, the Sabres have a devoted fan base. It's the same fan base that stayed away in droves in the early 2000s when the team almost went bankrupt (with a payroll in the $25MM range, ie half of where it is now). Even now, when they are selling out most of their games, they are reportedly losing real money (according to this fairly crappy article in Business First, anyway). The Sabres have to walk a very fine line to stay above water. They don't have a huge reservoir of wealthy hockey fans clamoring to buy tickets, like the Rangers, Flyers, Leafs, etc. They have to squeeze out as much revenue as they can, wherever they can. This is why items like variable pricing and smaller FO staff are a permanent part of the picture. And it's why they can't just write off the Southern Ontario market. That 15-20% chunk of their revenues is part of their bone marrow. If a new team in Hamilton takes a big piece of it away -- as it inevitably would -- the Sabres could go from just barely viable to terminal. That's just the truth. Interesting! The Sabres are losing real money? Put a crap product on the ice and they lose money? When they had a quality product two seasons ago they made money. Maybe Quinn can work his excel spreadsheet and find the connection. :wallbash:
nfreeman Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 Interesting! The Sabres are losing real money? Put a crap product on the ice and they lose money? When they had a quality product two seasons ago they made money. Maybe Quinn can work his excel spreadsheet and find the connection. :wallbash: I don't disagree, but this correlation doesn't remove the problem that would be created by a new team in Hamilton.
tom webster Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 I don't disagree, but this correlation doesn't remove the problem that would be created by a new team in Hamilton. 1) TG made a point of saying that LQ and DD have put the team in the black 2) As has been pointed out by many, the author of that article has been ripped by most for basically being on a self promition tour 3) The article referenced a p/l loss for the 07-08 season which given point #1 is obviously flawed
nfreeman Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 1) TG made a point of saying that LQ and DD have put the team in the black2) As has been pointed out by many, the author of that article has been ripped by most for basically being on a self promition tour 3) The article referenced a p/l loss for the 07-08 season which given point #1 is obviously flawed I thought the article was poorly written and not credible (and frankly doesn't reflect well on Business First for publishing it) -- so I'm not disagreeing. But did TG say that the team was in the black for 08-09? Either way, I still firmly believe the Sabres have a very narrow margin and would be really hurt by a team in Hamilton
deluca67 Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 I don't disagree, but this correlation doesn't remove the problem that would be created by a new team in Hamilton. I don't have a file of statistical data to back me up I am just going on gut feeling. I just feel that putting a team in Hamilton is going to create a NHL frenzy in the region. A Hamilton team is going to feed into the desire for NHL hockey and the Sabres can reap some benefits. Put in Hamilton and remove Boston from the division and gain instant sellouts. There is also going to be a great number of Hamilton fans who won't be able to get their hands on tickets, much like Toronto. There is a possibility that some of those fans will find there way down to Buffalo. I am not going to deny the Sabres will lose some ticket sales. That means they will just have to do a better job with the product they put on the ice. I don't know how much Corporate money makes it way down from Hamilton, there are others here who are much more in tune with the regions business community and I hope they chime in, I just can't imagine it being that significant. We are talking about creating the greatest hockey region in North America. The Sabres maybe in the weakest position of the three teams. It doesn't mean that with good leadership and a drastic change if philosophy they could not survive. Build a team the fans can get behind and relate to and it won't matter what happens in Hamilton or anywhere else.
shrader Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 Deluca, there already is an NHL frenzy in the region. Adding a new team doesn't add to that at all. They don't have to create the greatest hockey region in north america because it's already there. Each of your posts works under the assumption that the team makes all the right moves so that they would prosper with a Hamilton rival. This isn't a luxury the league can take. People are not perfect and they will slip up from time to time. It seems obvious that you realize that some of these risks are real. The league wants every team to be a success, but they're not going to risk the well-being of one to correct the problems of another. They will eventually move the Coyotes, but it won't be to Hamilton.
X. Benedict Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 Deluca, there already is an NHL frenzy in the region. Adding a new team doesn't add to that at all. They don't have to create the greatest hockey region in north america because it's already there. Each of your posts works under the assumption that the team makes all the right moves so that they would prosper with a Hamilton rival. This isn't a luxury the league can take. People are not perfect and they will slip up from time to time. It seems obvious that you realize that some of these risks are real. The league wants every team to be a success, but they're not going to risk the well-being of one to correct the problems of another. They will eventually move the Coyotes, but it won't be to Hamilton. A Hamilton team is not creating a new market, but it is dividing an old one. Almost like putting a new baseball team in Brooklyn.
wonderbread Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 Personally I think the 100 million dollars that they say Golly would be due will would help to keep the team in the black while restructing to produce an on ice team worthy of keeping the fans happy which would keep the butts in the seats.
nfreeman Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 Deluca, there already is an NHL frenzy in the region. Adding a new team doesn't add to that at all. They don't have to create the greatest hockey region in north america because it's already there. Each of your posts works under the assumption that the team makes all the right moves so that they would prosper with a Hamilton rival. This isn't a luxury the league can take. People are not perfect and they will slip up from time to time. It seems obvious that you realize that some of these risks are real. The league wants every team to be a success, but they're not going to risk the well-being of one to correct the problems of another. They will eventually move the Coyotes, but it won't be to Hamilton. Very well said. A Hamilton team is not creating a new market, but it is dividing an old one. Almost like putting a new baseball team in Brooklyn. Another good one.
jad1 Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 A Hamilton team is not creating a new market, but it is dividing an old one. Almost like putting a new baseball team in Brooklyn. Not really. The geographic market is the same, but the ecomonic market would be totally different. Buffalo and Toronto share a geographic region, but they have totally different business models that target different economic markets. Due to the cost of aquiring and placing a franchise in Hamilton, Balsillie would have a business plan much closer to Toronto's than Buffalo's.
X. Benedict Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 Not really. The geographic market is the same, but the ecomonic market would be totally different. Buffalo and Toronto share a geographic region, but they have totally different business models that target different economic markets. Due to the cost of aquiring and placing a franchise in Hamilton, Balsillie would have a business plan much closer to Toronto's than Buffalo's. Even giving that, I don't see how it is anything but splitting a mature market. I'm no genius at this stuff but if you raise supply by half (between the 3 clubs Toronto, Hamilton, Buffalo), there will be a new equilibrium for demand according to a simply Supply/Demand curve. Whereas a new team in Kansas City or Vegas for example would be totally new supply. Even if a team never goes into Hamilton....Buffalo is in huge trouble if there is ever a demand shortfall. I just think that long term increase in demand is unlikely in that it is already high and it is a region that has hockey options outside the NHL (OHL, AHL)
deluca67 Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 I may have to change my mind on this after listening to Regier on WGR. A team in Hamilton with this front office would kill the Sabres. :censored: :censored: :censored:
nfreeman Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 I may have to change my mind on this after listening to Regier on WGR. A team in Hamilton with this front office would kill the Sabres. :censored: :censored: :censored: what did he say? got a link?
jad1 Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 Even giving that, I don't see how it is anything but splitting a mature market. I'm no genius at this stuff but if you raise supply by half (between the 3 clubs Toronto, Hamilton, Buffalo), there will be a new equilibrium for demand according to a simply Supply/Demand curve. Sure, but that equibilibrium will occur at the economic level. Ever been to a Sabres game against a Western Canadian team? There are a ton of Vancouver, Edmonton, and Calgary fans there, and the majority of those fans come form Southern Ontario. So if the Canucks play in Buffalo on Thursday night and Hamilton on Saturday night. and lower seats cost $95 in Buffalo, $375 in Hamilton, which tickets will the Canucks fans buy? They'll come to Buffalo. Now if a corporation is paying $17,000 for a season ticket in Toronto, and Hamilton charges $15,000 for a similar seat, then Hamilton would be cutting into Toronto's market. That's why Toronto will do everything to keep Hamilton out of the league. Whereas a new team in Kansas City or Vegas for example would be totally new supply. Even if a team never goes into Hamilton....Buffalo is in huge trouble if there is ever a demand shortfall. I just think that long term increase in demand is unlikely in that it is already high and it is a region that has hockey options outside the NHL (OHL, AHL) The NHL has tried the new market idea in Carolina, Florida, and where else, oh yeah, Phoenix. These lukewarm markets suggest that the NHL would be better off placing teams in markets that are more receptive to the sport. Las Vegas and Kansas City offer no guarantee that they would be any better a market than Nashville. And the overall demand for hockey in this area might not grow, but the demand for affordable NHL hockey will always be there. Not every fan in Southern Ontario is a fan of the Leafs, Sabres, or future Hamilton franchise. For all those in the region who want to see the Candiens, Crosby, Ovechkin, or the Red Wings, HSBC remains the venue of choice because of its pricing. So the Sabres might lose some fans to Hamilton, but their tickets will still remain in high demand for those in Southern Ontario looking for reasonable prices to watch NHL games.
X. Benedict Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 Sure, but that equibilibrium will occur at the economic level. Ever been to a Sabres game against a Western Canadian team? There are a ton of Vancouver, Edmonton, and Calgary fans there, and the majority of those fans come form Southern Ontario. So if the Canucks play in Buffalo on Thursday night and Hamilton on Saturday night. and lower seats cost $95 in Buffalo, $375 in Hamilton, which tickets will the Canucks fans buy? They'll come to Buffalo.[/code] My thinking is that even with that disparity you cut into demand. The answer might be Hamilton charges $125 for lower bowl....or that same person settles for upper bowl without the drive over the Peace Bridge. I do appreciate your thoughts on this though.
shrader Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 would be cutting into Toronto's market. That's why Toronto will do everything to keep Hamilton out of the league.The NHL has tried the new market idea in Carolina, Florida, and where else, oh yeah, Phoenix. These lukewarm markets suggest that the NHL would be better off placing teams in markets that are more receptive to the sport. Las Vegas and Kansas City offer no guarantee that they would be any better a market than Nashville. They've also tried the new market idea at one point or another in cities like Dallas, St Louis, Philadelphia, and San Jose. They've had failures and successes.
jad1 Posted June 22, 2009 Report Posted June 22, 2009 My thinking is that even with that disparity you cut into demand.The answer might be Hamilton charges $125 for lower bowl....or that same person settles for upper bowl without the drive over the Peace Bridge. I do appreciate your thoughts on this though. I don't think that Hamilton will be able to price their product that cheaply. Balsillie is offering $212 million for the team, looking for $150 million in arena improvements, and will probably have to pay close to between $100 and $200 million in franchise and territorial fees to the NHL, the Leafs, and maybe the Sabres. He most likely will have to agree to have his television and radio rights to be controlled by the Leafs, losing revenue. And the league's and court's rejection of his initial bid means that an additional bid would cost him even more. So financially speaking, he's behind the eight ball if a deal goes through. So he can take massive losses by pricing his team competively with Buffalo or he can go after the corporate market that supports the Leafs. My guess is that he'll price his team according to what the corporate market will bear, slightly undercutting the Leafs. Balsillie might be willing to take losses for a while in Hamilton, but there's no way he's going to leave money on the table because he's competitively pricing his product against the Sabres, especially when the Sabres owner's investment in his frachise is only 1/4th the investment he must make.
apuszczalowski Posted June 24, 2009 Report Posted June 24, 2009 How much money is there in Hamilton anyway? Go for a drive through the city, not much...................... Actually, some of the surrounding areas aren't bad (Stoney Creek, Grimsby, Burlington, etc) thats where the people live who commute into Toronto for work. I'm sure they could support a team, but it would hurt the Sabres, just because the Sabres lose alot of their "exclusive" market in Niagara/Southern Ontario having to share it with them. right now Buffalo can't get a TV deal in Niagara because they can't get a station in Niagara thats exclusive to Buffalos territory that can play the games without infringing on Toronto. (Closest TV station is CHCH in Hamilton, and that infringes on Toronto's market) Theres Cogeco Cable 10 in Niagara (mostly run by Niagara College students and the local municipalities council meetings) but they are low budget and play Niagara Ice Dogs Games. As for Jim and the $150 million for arena upgrades, he's chipping in $5 million, the rest is supposed to come from the Ontario Tax Payers who will be fitting the Bill because the governmentthinks improving that arena will get a better chance of holding some sort of games (not sure if its the commonwealth games, but something similar) in Hamilton. I still don't understand how "Saint" Jim the Billionaire can't front the extra $120 million to improve an arena that the city is pretty much handing to him to run. Especially since its such a strong hockey market that hockey will thrive in and he should have no problems making his money back :rolleyes:
Foligno's Nose Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 Great discussion. I really disagree with the arguments for how the hockey markets will be 'split'. There are just too many hockey fans per capita in the approximately 15 million people residing in the 'Golden Horseshoe' market. The Hamilton seats will be as scarce as Leaf tickets. The market is that rich and hungry for another NHL team. The Sabres/ hockey fans who drive down to Buffalo from all points south of Hamilton will most probably continue to do so. This will be true even though they will have to deal with the increased problems at the border. This will be true even though they still cannot access any Sabres games on TV in Southern Ontario still. It will be essentially a wash for the Sabres. They will remain with their season ticket base and will have to compete for keeping it that way by inproving the product on the ice. The possible three-city division rivalry speaks for itself. A home-and-home-and-home series?!? Wow. I just don't buy any of these arguments that the Sabres will struggle to survive or worse with the addition of a Hamilton franchise. I enjoy the debate though. Keep coming up with the argument to try and convince me.
Mbossy Posted July 30, 2009 Report Posted July 30, 2009 http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=286141 TSN: CHICAGO -- The NHL Board of Governors approved a bid Wednesday by Jerry Reinsdorf to assume ownership of the financially troubled Phoenix Coyotes, and unanimously rejected an application by Canadian billionaire Jim Balsillie to buy the team.
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