[OT] Political Discussion

[Taro T]

Are you suggesting we should have pulled out of Iraq in 2003? Or is that different? Seems to me that many Republicans--not saying you, I don't know--want to rebulid Iraq and make sure we deny, cut off and ensure that nothing gets spent at all on the cities. Those inner city people are all lazy, violent and refuse to even help themselves--unless its "five finger discount self help." Right?

MANY Republicans want to "ensure that nothing gets spent AT ALL on the cities?" :huh:

 

Yep, no hyperbole here. /sarcasm

[inkman]

Worst post ever

Best post ever :lol: (yours)

[Guest Sloth]

I know very well the history of the United States. I especially am into civil war history and the politics leading to it. Heck, the seeds to the civil war were sewn in the ratification process of the declaration of independence. That stuff simply fascinates me. With that said, yes, you are correct, the war was fought over states rights and the control of the federal government., But, if you can tell me with a straight face that slavery wasn't the main issue over federal vs. states rights, then you have found my true identity: I am Abraham Lincoln, damn glad to meet you. In my original post, I simply used slavery as the civil war issue to press a point. Also, Lincoln did not free the slaves with the emancipation proclamation. He used that to cause slavery uprisings in the south to weaken the confederate forces and their infrastructure. At that point, Lincoln had no intentions of freeing the slaves outright. No doubt he would have after the war, but he didn't live long enough for that to happen.

 

I wasn't trying to prove you wrong or anything like that. Whenever something historical is brought up I like to discuss it. You are completely correct on the debate over slavery beginning w/ the foundation of our country. Thomas Jefferson, himself, questioned slavery in his journals. He never went public w/ it. The Missouri Compromise of 1820 shows exactly what was going on w/ the U.S. A balance of power was trying to be kept in place, but that was a hope that would never, and thankfully, be achieved. Compromise after compromise was made until no other compromise could be made. I understand slavery was one of the main state rights the south was fighting for, but they did not like the idea of their government being dictated by the federal government. The wanted states rights to supercede the federal government. Remember, only 9% of the population actually owned a slave in the south.

[X. Benedict]

Remember, only 9% of the population actually owned a slave in the south.

It was much more broad. Much more.

 

1850 Census there were some 6,180,000 white folks in slave states.

375,000 listed as as slaveholders,

and over 3,200,000 slaves.

Now most farmers didn't own slaves, but slaves could be legally rented out and were. (with no benefit to the slave).

Nearly 100% of whites in some way benefited from a slave economy which was prosperous.

Whether they were a member of household, attached to a household, hired hands on plantations, or yeoman farmers that leased their help seasonally.

[spndnchz]

I must say, this post was a little vague...

 

If there is 1 program to help the poor - then there are 1000's. Government, church based, private, whatever. We just pile one program on top of another. Why? Because you can't make someone "learn to help themselves". The best you can do is make sure they have enough to prevent rioting. To claim we aren't doing anything about them is absurd. The problem is that there is only so much you can do until those you seek to help choose to pursue that path themselves.

 

I'm pretty sure the Asian community doesn't have a red carpet rolled out for them here in America. Yet, they somehow find a way. In fact, some universities have CAPS on the number of Asian students in their programs. America has PLENTY of opportunity for those who seek it. Immigrants seek that opportunity by the millions. I'm not sure you can make the same statement about our own citizens across the country.

 

 

I've worked for gov't programs that "help the low income help themselves" and I've seen it time and again, many of them do just enough to "qualify" for the 'free' stuff... They show up for their required hours or they turn in just enough job applications to keep getting their welfare checks and food stamps (access card). I've taught some of these "classes" they have to attend, 98% of the people in them that I've seen are there because that's the only way they will get "credit" for the program and still get 'free' money. Granted, the 2% that gets something out of it and get a job and get off the system is a great thing... but honestly that 2% is usually the people that are fell on hard times and are embarassed to get a gov't handout so they bust their butt to get out of it.

The welfare programs were not set up to be a way of life, there are plenty of opportunites to use the gov't to get ahead the way they were intended. Short term help.

 

I've had several clients actually get a job and then quit when they were asked to do their job (not the 2% mentioned above I mean). There are more than enough programs out now and most of them are just throwing money away because of the attitude of the clients.

But here is the underlying question. How do you get people to help themselves and not simply do what it takes to "help themselves".

 

To what means are these 2% motivated and how does it translate into making the other 98% understand what it takes?

 

I don't have the answers, but I hope, someday, we, as Americans, will find them. That is the hope, the dream, of being in one of the United States of America. I know the answer is not politics.

[SarasotaSabre]

Does anyone plan on voting for the candidate that is best for the country or are you just going to vote for the guy that helps you the most? The two may coincide but I believe a number of people are personalizing this election (and others) to whichever candidate they think will help them out financially. Does anyone actually care about this country or do we all get wrapped up in "looking out for number one" ideals?

 

agreed Ink.... I heard a radio interview of a woman waiting in line who made the statement she was voting for Obama because "she won't have to pay for her own mortgage and car payment anymore"....for the record, I am NOT exaggerating

 

- sadly, there are a ton of uninformed voters who made their choice solely on what they thought candidate Y was going to "give them". Record voting turnouts are great but peoples' motives are not.

[SarasotaSabre]

While I advocate people improving their quality of life, have you been in the hood lately? The Rochester city schol district is a perfect case study. Drugs, gangs, absentee parenting, peer pressure to not succeed in the classroom. Some kids do escape and make a better life for themselves but the system is in motion and it's extremely difficult for these kids to even have a chance. They are worried about getting shot, stabbed, robbed or beat. Achieving good grades and going to college is the last thing on many of their minds.

 

We need to organize and find solutions. A 40% graduation rate is laughable. Just telling them to study harder and get a good job isn't going to cut it. We need to provide actual paths to success. Perhaps Obama can assist in this process. I feel he will be more aware of these issues than McCain.

 

Agreed

[SarasotaSabre]

You'll never know who refuses until you at least offer to help. Contrary to what some may say not all those who are impoverished are there because they are lazy or refuse to try. Poverty is a cycle that is extremely difficult to break.

 

There are both sides of the coin - those who want to break the cycle of poverty and those who act and feel entitled to be taken care of by the government.

 

I know the drill - I volunteer at a soup kitchen in downtown Atlanta.

[SarasotaSabre]

You've been fed a heaping plate of BS by the conservative spin artists.

 

Not true. The $150k threshold came out of Biden's piehole.

[inkman]

Not true. The $150k threshold came out of Biden's piehole.

While not a news outlet, I think this guy breaks it down well.

[SDS]

But here is the underlying question. How do you get people to help themselves and not simply do what it takes to "help themselves".

 

To what means are these 2% motivated and how does it translate into making the other 98% understand what it takes?

 

I don't have the answers, but I hope, someday, we, as Americans, will find them. That is the hope, the dream, of being in one of the United States of America. I know the answer is not politics.

 

 

That is why the problem will never go away. I'm not the greatest of historians, but if someone could point me to a relatively modern free society that doesn't have poor people - let me know.

[inkman]

That is why the problem will never go away. I'm not the greatest of historians, but if someone could point me to a relatively modern free society that doesn't have poor people - let me know.

Star Trek? Now if we could just get the vulcan's attention with that warp signature...

[inkman]

Remember, remember the 5th of November...

[SarasotaSabre]

Why can't you answer simple questions?

 

DeLuca, why can't you engage in political debate without injecting religion into it and showing your ugly anti-religion side. ?You come across as mean spirited, miserable, petty, and condescending - you stereotype anyone of faith as a "religious right-wing nut" or "bible-thumper"...why don't you get over your miserable life and start contributing something positive to this Board? For all of your ranting about organized religion being the root of all man's evils - I could make the statement that the sorry state of the moral and cultural fiber in this country is partially due to the lack of faith and a Godless society - BUT I DON'T, because I respect your political beliefs.

 

Anyway, Obama ran a great campaign and won fair and square. I hope for nothing but the best for his tenure as Pres, but he will be tested. Are you happy now? Let the "tax rebate checks" begin......isn't that what the Obama voters are waiting for with bated breath?

[wjag]

Anyway, Obama ran a great campaign and won fair and square. I hope for nothing but the best for his tenure as Pres, but he will be tested. Are you happy now? Let the "tax rebate checks" begin......isn't that what the Obama voters are waiting for with bated breath?

Not me... I'll forego a check... I don't think the country can afford it quite frankly...

 

As for the Obama campaign, brilliant... I'll be satisfied with putting "your hand on the arc of history".. That's gonna be in granite somewhere, some time soon....

 

By the by, anyone know the name of the music that was played at the end of his election night speech? I'll always associate that with the Obama win and would like to get a copy on my ipod.. Goes perfectly with my Celtic, Classical, Rock tastes...

 

EDIT: Got my answer from google: Remember the Titans - Theme sound track

[nobody]

Remember, only 9% of the population actually owned a slave in the south.

 

 

It was much more broad. Much more.

1850 Census there were some 6,180,000 white folks in slave states.

375,000 listed as as slaveholders,

 

 

My math works that out to 6% slaveholders. ;)

[SarasotaSabre]

anyone else catch the lie (one of many) in last nights proaganda when the retired general said the following about Obama "... he understands his duty to uphold the constitution..." ? anyone hear that? anyone educated enough to know that's a lie? Obama has stated in his own words that the constitution is too restrictive on the federal government and basically needs to be re-written.

 

and as for the people posting about how all he wants to do is take a little money from the super rich and help out the working people, that's crap. Yes, that might be part of his plan and I can even understand it... but that is NOT what will happen. the non-working welfare poor people will have no incentive to work when they receive a check for having more kids and sitting around. I'm sorry but there are people who don't work by choice (i'm not talking about the unfortunate people that lost their jobs that are really hardworking people), have three kids, and get gov't assistance but still have the newest cellphones, buy cigarettes and alcohol, and have nicer cars and tvs than I have and STILL complain. My wife and i both work good jobs, own our home and have what we can afford and can sleep at night knowing we are earning our way.

 

This country is not about giving it's citizen's what they want, it's about working your butt off to get something better. It is NOT the government's responsibility to take care of you. I'm pretty sure all of us on here are good working citizens... why should the reward for your hard work be given to someone who isn't working hard?

 

AMEN, perfectly written.

[Bmwolf21]

anyone else catch the lie (one of many) in last nights proaganda when the retired general said the following about Obama "... he understands his duty to uphold the constitution..." ? anyone hear that? anyone educated enough to know that's a lie? Obama has stated in his own words that the constitution is too restrictive on the federal government and basically needs to be re-written.

Link?

[SarasotaSabre]

You really have no idea what actually goes on in this Country. Hopefully you will never have an event in your life were you find everything turned upside down and you are in need of help. Enjoy what you have, just remember it may be gone tomorrow.

 

You know nothing about me or what I do for living and to involve myself in charitable organizations, so you have NO right to tell me I don't know what "actually goes on this country". What kind of elitist smug statement is that? Get off your high horse - I don't to pretend to accuse you of what you don't know.

 

I do enjoy what I have. I work hard for it and don't bitch in misery about all the bad things in this country like others in this thread, because I am a glass half full kind of guy.

[SarasotaSabre]

:worthy: OBAMA :worthy:

 

LONG LIVE THE KING!!!

 

Don't you mean the Messiah....?? oops, sorry Deluca, I used a "religious" word to describe how our new leader is being viewed.... :doh:

[Guest Sloth]

My math works that out to 6% slaveholders. ;)

 

Figures can always be distorted, but 6% backs up my argument of 9% of the population owning slaves. My argument was simply a small number of people actually owned a slave. The Civil War's main issue was not slavery.

As for the rent-a-slave business, that was more for a person who was on the verge of owning a slave or a person who needed additional slaves for a short period of time.

Many southern states had a 2 dollar tax that had to be paid in order to vote and a large portion of the population couldn't afford that. If they couldn't afford the tax, they certainly couldn't afford to buy or rent a slave.

[Guest Sloth]

DeLuca, why can't you engage in political debate without injecting religion into it and showing your ugly anti-religion side. ?You come across as mean spirited, miserable, petty, and condescending - you stereotype anyone of faith as a "religious right-wing nut" or "bible-thumper"...why don't you get over your miserable life and start contributing something positive to this Board? For all of your ranting about organized religion being the root of all man's evils - I could make the statement that the sorry state of the moral and cultural fiber in this country is partially due to the lack of faith and a Godless society - BUT I DON'T, because I respect your political beliefs.

 

I just want to say thank you. :)

[darksabre]

Link?

 

seconded.

[FogBat]

I wonder if

could retrofit their song to include Obama. It would certainly be apropos, given the personality cult that surrounds that guy.

[Taro T]

I wonder if

could retrofit their song to include Obama. It would certainly be apropos, given the personality cult that surrounds that guy.

Don't know about that. But I do know I saw them open for the Stones and those guys rocked. The only thing wrong w/ the sets was their equipment was WAY too small for the venue and the Stones equipment was WAY too loud. That was the only show I ever left where my ears were ringing. (And I've seen some bands that pride themselves on being loud.)

 

Living Colour played a club in the same town about 6 months before they played the stadium and to this day I'm bummed that I missed that show, because as stated before they seriously rocked.

 

That show, the Dead in Rich, and Pearl Jam at Tippitina's (sp?) in NO, are the 3 I most regret missing.