Line Combinations

[shrader]

I could be wrong, but I think the "code" would dictate that LaRacque would have to go after Peters (assuming he played in that game and came out in the next couple of shifts) -- otherwise, if LaRacque went after someone else, the code would justify (or require) Peters going after one of their civilians.

 

There is no such thing as the code. It may still exist with a few players around the league, but most don't care anymore.

[X. Benedict]

I could be wrong, but I think the "code" would dictate that LaRacque would have to go after Peters (assuming he played in that game and came out in the next couple of shifts) -- otherwise, if LaRacque went after someone else, the code would justify (or require) Peters going after one of their civilians.

 

I think the code goes like this....Laraque tells the Sabres bench somebody has to show up, or somebody gets hurt.

Usually it would be Peters, but really anybody will do. Somebody has to be held accountable.

 

Laraque who is not a dirty player, has to make good on the threat when nobody is there to fight, and elbows Paetsch in the chops.

Lindy talked about it a little, but none of the players did.

 

They knew exactly what happened.

 

So in the great scheme, does Peters help your team even if he is a bad fighter?

Yes, because even if he loses in the fight to Laraque he is protecting his teamates

by showing up.

 

The code says it ends there. Unless Kaleta hits Malkin again, in which case it all starts again.

[LabattBlue]

-- otherwise, if LaRacque went after someone else, the code would justify (or require) Peters going after one of their civilians.

:lol: :lol:

[X. Benedict]

There is no such thing as the code. It may still exist with a few players around the league, but most don't care anymore.

 

I disagree. It is still there, but it has been clouded by the instigator rule.

[shrader]

I disagree. It is still there, but it has been clouded by the instigator rule.

 

It's there, but like I said, the majority don't care anymore. There is far too much headhunting out there today for "the code" to still be widespread. The code wasn't just about responding to stuff like that, it was about not doing that stuff in the first place.

[X. Benedict]

It's there, but like I said, the majority don't care anymore. There is far too much headhunting out there today for "the code" to still be widespread. The code wasn't just about responding to stuff like that, it was about not doing that stuff in the first place.

 

Yep. There was a lot to that idea of keeping things polite.

[carpandean]

If that is the code, then it is the dumbest code ever invented.

 

So, Kaleta hits Malkin.

 

Laraque says "to pay you back, I'm going to fight somebody. If Peters is here, I'll fight him. If not and nobody else will fight me, I'll pick somebody to hit."

 

Basically, goons are there to allow one of your players to cheap-shot a star, because the response will just be to fight your goon, not to hit the guy that cheap-shotted the star in the first place? You have to bring a goon, because if you don't have one and your player cheap-shots a star, then the other team's goon is there to hit one of your players as retaliation. Plus, the other team can cheap-shot your players, because if you try to get back at them, their enforcer will take it out on your player. Therefore, both sides take enforcers, headhunting occurs and the enforcers fight each other. Then, they're both out for 5 minutes and headhunting still occurs because there's nobody to retaliate.

 

All I see is that this code provides job security for enforcers and does nothing to deter headhunting. If neither team brings one, then there would be the same amount of headhunting, but better hockey players on both sides.

 

Also, we're screwed because unlike Laraque, Peters can't play hockey. If we don't have to bring him (like when the other team doesn't have one), we don't, so we never have the advantage over teams without one. If we had Laraque, we could bring him either way and let the other teams worry about bringing someone to counter him.

[X. Benedict]

If that is the code, then it is the dumbest code ever invented.

 

So, Kaleta hits Malkin.

 

Laraque says "to pay you back, I'm going to fight somebody. If Peters is here, I'll fight him. If not and nobody else will fight me, I'll pick somebody to hit."

......

 

Laraque skates up to the Bench and says...."Call-ups from the A don't get to hit star players, so who is going to pay for that?"

(actually the hit on Malkin was from the previous game)

 

That's the code. You may think it is stupid, but this stuff happens every game.

Actually Laraque's hit was a gentleman's move in a sense. He tattered the 7th defenseman.

It wasn't an accidental choice.

[carpandean]

Laraque skates up to the Bench and says...."Call-ups from the A don't get to hit star players, so who is going to pay for that?"

(actually the hit on Malkin was from the previous game)

That's the code. You may think it is stupid, but this stuff happens every game.

I think that the code should be to flatten that "A call-up" for hitting your star player. Destroy him so that the next A call-up thinks twice before landing a cheap-shot on a star. Then, if Peters or anyone else wants to take it up with enforcer, Laraque in this case, they can. Fighting the other team's enforcer - Peters, here, had he played - does nothing to discourage headhunting. That's what I find dumb.

[inkman]

I think that the code should be to flatten that "A call-up" for hitting your star player.

 

#%^$#!in A man, #%^$#!in A! :thumbsup:

[X. Benedict]

I think that the code should be to flatten that "A call-up" for hitting your star player. Destroy him so that the next A call-up thinks twice before landing a cheap-shot on a star. Then, if Peters or anyone else wants to take it up with enforcer, Laraque in this case, they can. Fighting the other team's enforcer - Peters, here, had he played - does nothing to discourage headhunting. That's what I find dumb.

 

Well in a sense it does. If Peters was playing that day, the fight is between Laraque and Peters.

Nate never takes that elbow to the TMJ.

[inkman]

Well in a sense it does. If Peters was playing that day, the fight is between Laraque and Peters.

Nate never takes that elbow to the TMJ.

 

Shouldn't Kaleta have taken a couple of shots to the mug?

[inkman]

I guess besides Shanny, who realistically fills this role and would be expendable by their current team?

 

 

Eric Cole was... :(

 

 

I'll bet Tallinder and a prospect would have fetched him. :beer:

[carpandean]

Well in a sense it does. If Peters was playing that day, the fight is between Laraque and Peters.

Nate never takes that elbow to the TMJ.

My point being that if Laraque just fights Peters, what incentive does that give Kaleta or any other Sabre to not headhunt? Nobody cares that Laraque fights Peters - they'd find some excuse to do it anyway and Peters is worth less to us that Laraque is (was) to them - so what's the cost of headhunting? Anyone seen Dude Where's My Car, where the cop beats up the dummy during their interrogation to try and convince them to talk because he can't hit them? I see this enforcer code as just as effective.

[X. Benedict]

Shouldn't Kaleta have taken a couple of shots to the mug?

 

Kaleta only had 4 minutes of ice time....and he's not going to fight Laraque out of class.

That pretty much left Gaustad, Weber, and Bernier...none of whom should be fighting Laraque either...

so nobody showed up.

[X. Benedict]

My point being that if Laraque just fights Peters, what incentive does that give Kaleta or any other Sabre to not headhunt? Nobody cares that Laraque fights Peters - they'd find some excuse to do it anyway and Peters is worth less to us that Laraque is (was) to them - so what's the cost of headhunting? Anyone seen Dude Where's My Car, where the cop beats up the dummy during their interrogation to try and convince them to talk because he can't hit them? I see this enforcer code as just as effective.

 

I'm not saying it is ideal, it is just what happens.

The challenge is sent, the reason is made known, somebody has to show up.

 

But Laraque wasn't on the Pens roster for entertainment. He was there to protect Malkin and Crosby.

I'm not saying Peters is similar protection for Roy and Pomminstein.......but watch Friday night and

see if Kaleta tries to hit Kovalev or Plekanic.

[deluca67]

Entertain my curiousity here. What exactly do you expect out of a third line?

Ideally a third line should be your checking line. A line that can eat up minutes against other teams top two lines while maintaining a physical presence. A third line should be better in the defensive zone while occasionally chipping in on the offensive side. I would prefer a third line centered by someone who is deft at face-offs.

 

What I don't want on the third line is a head case and a player more likely not finish the game. I do like Kotalik on the third line. I wouldn't mind seeing Paille on the other wing and hopefully a healthy Gaustad. Someone from Portland would have to step up in to Paille's spot on the second line.

 

4th line? Kaleta as the 12th forward is fine. I would prefer the Adam Mair of three or four years ago and a fighter that can actually fight.

 

Unless there is some serious roster movement the Sabres are stuck with what they have on the bottom third of the roster. Sadly it just won't be good enough for the playoffs.

[Taro T]

Ideally a third line should be your checking line. A line that can eat up minutes against other teams top two lines while maintaining a physical presence. A third line should be better in the defensive zone while occasionally chipping in on the offensive side. I would prefer a third line centered by someone who is deft at face-offs.

 

What I don't want on the third line is a head case and a player more likely not finish the game. I do like Kotalik on the third line. I wouldn't mind seeing Paille on the other wing and hopefully a healthy Gaustad. Someone from Portland would have to step up in to Paille's spot on the second line.

 

4th line? Kaleta as the 12th forward is fine. I would prefer the Adam Mair of three or four years ago and a fighter that can actually fight.

 

Unless there is some serious roster movement the Sabres are stuck with what they have on the bottom third of the roster. Sadly it just won't be good enough for the playoffs.

I'm not sure why everyone is considering the Hecht line the 2nd line and not the 3rd line. That line (Paille-Hecht-Pominville) would be very sound against the other team's #1 line and would get major minutes. It also would allow the Connolly line (Ales, Timmy, Max) to play against the other team's #2 line. (Although ideally, I'd have the #2 line going against the other team's #3 line.) Either is a matchup that I am very comfortable with. Let Vanek-Roy-Stafford face the other team's checking line. By keeping Spacek, Rivet, and Numinnen on separate pairings, you should always have at least 1 D-man solid in his own end on the ice at any time and would keep the VRS line from being too scary in its own end when it is forced to go against the other team's #1 line.

 

Granted, PHP won't bang the other team's top line around like the 4th line would, but it also won't give up many chances. Personally, I expect to see Hecht's line going against the Kovalev line on Friday. W/ Lindy trying to get the Roy line against Koivu and trying to get the Latandresse line going against Connolly.

[deluca67]

I'm not sure why everyone is considering the Hecht line the 2nd line and not the 3rd line. That line (Paille-Hecht-Pominville) would be very sound against the other team's #1 line and would get major minutes. It also would allow the Connolly line (Ales, Timmy, Max) to play against the other team's #2 line. (Although ideally, I'd have the #2 line going against the other team's #3 line.) Either is a matchup that I am very comfortable with. Let Vanek-Roy-Stafford face the other team's checking line. By keeping Spacek, Rivet, and Numinnen on separate pairings, you should always have at least 1 D-man solid in his own end on the ice at any time and would keep the VRS line from being too scary in its own end when it is forced to go against the other team's #1 line.

 

Granted, PHP won't bang the other team's top line around like the 4th line would, but it also won't give up many chances. Personally, I expect to see Hecht's line going against the Kovalev line on Friday. W/ Lindy trying to get the Roy line against Koivu and trying to get the Latandresse line going against Connolly.

You mean "the Connolly, or who ever take this place when he is out, line".

 

Ales, Max and Tinny would get eaten alive by pretty much every second line in the NHL. If you have PHP trying to play a shut down role then you have limited the Sabres to one offensive line. That means in order to win Vanek-Roy-Stafford better dominate offensively or the Sabres power play better be clicking early.

 

I have to reiterate, that is a huge burden to place on the top two lines. You have the best power play and PK forwards on the top two lines. You expect PHP to carry the load as a checking line. The smallish forwards won't last a third of the season. The Sabres can't go into a season with a completely useless fourth line and a third line that on most nights will see one winger benched and the center nursing nagging injures. The only other option is to rotate Kotalik with the top two lines.

 

I was really hoping a move would have been made by this point. Some talent to add to the third line. I am disappointed that one of the young kids didn't make the Sabres. Hopefully V-R-S comes through on Friday night and Miller stands on his head.

[Kristian]

If that is the code, then it is the dumbest code ever invented.

 

So, Kaleta hits Malkin.

 

Laraque says "to pay you back, I'm going to fight somebody. If Peters is here, I'll fight him. If not and nobody else will fight me, I'll pick somebody to hit."

 

Basically, goons are there to allow one of your players to cheap-shot a star, because the response will just be to fight your goon, not to hit the guy that cheap-shotted the star in the first place? You have to bring a goon, because if you don't have one and your player cheap-shots a star, then the other team's goon is there to hit one of your players as retaliation. Plus, the other team can cheap-shot your players, because if you try to get back at them, their enforcer will take it out on your player. Therefore, both sides take enforcers, headhunting occurs and the enforcers fight each other. Then, they're both out for 5 minutes and headhunting still occurs because there's nobody to retaliate.

 

All I see is that this code provides job security for enforcers and does nothing to deter headhunting. If neither team brings one, then there would be the same amount of headhunting, but better hockey players on both sides.

 

Also, we're screwed because unlike Laraque, Peters can't play hockey. If we don't have to bring him (like when the other team doesn't have one), we don't, so we never have the advantage over teams without one. If we had Laraque, we could bring him either way and let the other teams worry about bringing someone to counter him.

 

 

Well that's funny, cause no way Peters ever hits someone who isn't nailed to the boards.

[That Aud Smell]

I think the code goes like this....

i think that's right.

 

i think there are almost laughable disconnects in terms of efficacy or internal logic, but i think that's right.

 

I think that the code should be to flatten that "A call-up" for hitting your star player. Destroy him so that the next A call-up thinks twice before landing a cheap-shot on a star.

i agree with this, and i'm not sure why it's not the case. perhaps the code would dictate that if laraque were to destroy kaleta, then that would justify our side doing something equally "out of class." but if that were the case, then arguably laraque wouldn't have run paetsch?

 

Well in a sense it does. If Peters was playing that day, the fight is between Laraque and Peters.

Nate never takes that elbow to the TMJ.

Shouldn't Kaleta have taken a couple of shots to the mug?

like ink, i think, i am still unsure why kaleta doesn't take the elbow.

 

is it the issue of ice time referenced below?

 

Kaleta only had 4 minutes of ice time....and he's not going to fight Laraque out of class.

That pretty much left Gaustad, Weber, and Bernier...none of whom should be fighting Laraque either... so nobody showed up.

to close my loop for now, paetsch got KTFO on an "out of class" basis -- why not kaleta?

[nfreeman]

You mean "the Connolly, or who ever take this place when he is out, line".

 

Ales, Max and Tinny would get eaten alive by pretty much every second line in the NHL. If you have PHP trying to play a shut down role then you have limited the Sabres to one offensive line. That means in order to win Vanek-Roy-Stafford better dominate offensively or the Sabres power play better be clicking early.

 

I have to reiterate, that is a huge burden to place on the top two lines. You have the best power play and PK forwards on the top two lines. You expect PHP to carry the load as a checking line. The smallish forwards won't last a third of the season. The Sabres can't go into a season with a completely useless fourth line and a third line that on most nights will see one winger benched and the center nursing nagging injures. The only other option is to rotate Kotalik with the top two lines.

 

I was really hoping a move would have been made by this point. Some talent to add to the third line. I am disappointed that one of the young kids didn't make the Sabres. Hopefully V-R-S comes through on Friday night and Miller stands on his head.

 

Ah, where to begin?

 

Stafford isn't going to start with Roy and Vanek. Max is. That line will, as always, be high risk, high reward. If Max plays like he did for the 2 years prior to last year, he will stay on that line. If he plays like he did last year, he will get dropped -- but not necessarily in favor of Stafford, who is well into the doghouse these days.

 

When Connolly plays and Gaustad returns, Connolly's wingers will be Gaustad and Kotalik. That is a talented, fundamentally sound, 2-way line. It will score, defend and check. It won't be as good as Detroit's or Montreal's 2nd lines, but it will certainly NOT get "eaten alive by pretty much every 2nd line in the NHL". For example, the Rangers' 2nd line is Dubinsky, Zherdev and Dawes. Ottawa's is Vermette-Fisher-Winchester. Is anyone sweating about those matchups?

 

Taro is right that when Lindy will probably try to get PHP going against the opposition's top line most nights. You are not right about that strategy eliminating PHP as an offensive threat. Pommer and Hecht played last year against the opposition's top line most nights, and each of them had career scoring years.

 

Again, this was the 4th-highest-scoring team in the NHL last year. There are plenty of offensive weapons. Saying that we'll need to rely on Roy's line to carry us (and that this will result in them getting hurt, after Roy played 78 games last year and Vanek played 82) is just nonsense.

 

Since you've flip-flopped on everything else, are you ready to admit that you miss Briere?

[deluca67]

Ah, where to begin?

 

Stafford isn't going to start with Roy and Vanek. Max is. That line will, as always, be high risk, high reward. If Max plays like he did for the 2 years prior to last year, he will stay on that line. If he plays like he did last year, he will get dropped -- but not necessarily in favor of Stafford, who is well into the doghouse these days.

 

When Connolly plays and Gaustad returns, Connolly's wingers will be Gaustad and Kotalik. That is a talented, fundamentally sound, 2-way line. It will score, defend and check. It won't be as good as Detroit's or Montreal's 2nd lines, but it will certainly NOT get "eaten alive by pretty much every 2nd line in the NHL". For example, the Rangers' 2nd line is Dubinsky, Zherdev and Dawes. Ottawa's is Vermette-Fisher-Winchester. Is anyone sweating about those matchups?

 

Taro is right that when Lindy will probably try to get PHP going against the opposition's top line most nights. You are not right about that strategy eliminating PHP as an offensive threat. Pommer and Hecht played last year against the opposition's top line most nights, and each of them had career scoring years.

 

Again, this was the 4th-highest-scoring team in the NHL last year. There are plenty of offensive weapons. Saying that we'll need to rely on Roy's line to carry us (and that this will result in them getting hurt, after Roy played 78 games last year and Vanek played 82) is just nonsense.

 

Since you've flip-flopped on everything else, are you ready to admit that you miss Briere?

 

I never flip flop. I base my opinions on the facts at hand. Unlike some who are blindly attached to an opinion and refuse to move off that opinion no matter how drastic a change has occurred in the variables.

 

The rest off your post is flawed simply because you relying on two players that have proven themselves to be unreliable. "If Max Plays like" or "When Connolly Plays"? Why don't you just add "If Peters can score 20 goals" or "Miller has 82 shut outs". They are just as likely to happen.

 

The Sabres did finish 4th in the league in scoring. Thanks to putting up 23 goals in four games against Atlanta and a bunch against bottom feeders like Tampa (22) Carolina (20). Most nights the Sabres struggled to score 3 goals. The idea the Sabres have "plenty of weapons" is a myth. They have Roy, Vanek and Pominville to carry the load. There is a steep drop off to Paille, Hecht and Kotalik. Another drop off to Stafford and Gaustad. That's all the Sabres can rely on in the forward ranks. It would be great if the blue line could chip in on the offensive side. Without Campbell it is not unreasonable to expect a drop off from last years production.

 

This season Roy, Vanek and Pominville are going to be leaned on far more than a season ago. Especially without Gaustad to eat up some PK minutes. Hopefully Paille and Stafford can step up their games to help fill the voids in the forwards ranks. Though I am starting to have doubts about Stafford.

[shrader]

I'm not sure why everyone is considering the Hecht line the 2nd line and not the 3rd line. That line (Paille-Hecht-Pominville) would be very sound against the other team's #1 line and would get major minutes. It also would allow the Connolly line (Ales, Timmy, Max) to play against the other team's #2 line. (Although ideally, I'd have the #2 line going against the other team's #3 line.) Either is a matchup that I am very comfortable with. Let Vanek-Roy-Stafford face the other team's checking line. By keeping Spacek, Rivet, and Numinnen on separate pairings, you should always have at least 1 D-man solid in his own end on the ice at any time and would keep the VRS line from being too scary in its own end when it is forced to go against the other team's #1 line.

 

Granted, PHP won't bang the other team's top line around like the 4th line would, but it also won't give up many chances. Personally, I expect to see Hecht's line going against the Kovalev line on Friday. W/ Lindy trying to get the Roy line against Koivu and trying to get the Latandresse line going against Connolly.

 

I've never put much weight into numbering the lines. Like you said, they definitely have at least one line that can be our shutdown presence. Obviously the 4th line is what it is, but after that, we know we have a group of guys who can put the puck in the net. I'd say those lines fit the description Deluca laid out.

[That Aud Smell]

The Sabres did finish 4th in the league in scoring. Thanks to putting up 23 goals in four games against Atlanta and a bunch against bottom feeders like Tampa (22) Carolina (20). Most nights the Sabres struggled to score 3 goals.

very true.