Line Combinations

[Kristian]

You're OK with only playing Gaustad for 3-4 minutes a game. Ellis/Peters - Mair - Kaleta is a fourth line I would expect to see in Portland not on a NHL team. Even when healthy, which he is not, Mair is a marginal NHL forward. Kaleta is a local kid and I get why people like him. But lets be honest, Kaleta on his best day should only be your 16th forward with limited minutes. Considering the Sabres have no third line to speak of, that is going to put a tremendous burden on the top two lines. Considering the top two lines are on the smallish side and have zero toughness I doubt they can last long under the pressure without injuries.

 

Kaleta gets a lot of love for his physical style, but I have to think this is only because the rest of the team are a bunch of creampuffs.

 

The fact that he's as popular as he is, tells us what state the current team is in.

 

I like Roy and Pommers as much as the next guy, but for the love of god, at least give them a fighting chance.

[inkman]

I like Roy and Pommers as much as the next guy, but for the love of god, at least give them a fighting chance.

 

How awesome would it be to see a guy like Shanahan or Gary Roberts (perhaps not now because dirt is their peer) but a guy that is full of piss and vinegar but has enough ability to warrant ice time with top line players. Seeing two or three lines of softies makes me :( . Maybe Paille or Stafford can become that guy. :rolleyes:

[R_Dudley]

I'm not certain how much this has been discussed. I have seen snippets in other threads but I felt a common ground was necessary. Here goes:

 

Vanek-Roy-Stafford

Paille-Hecht-Pominville

Kotalik-Connolly-Afinogenov

Ellis/Peters-Mair-Kaleta

 

Rivet-Lydman

Spacek-Sekera

Numminen-Tallinder

As much as I want Weber in the lineup, I can't see Lindy scratching a heathly Hank. Obviously, Goose would be in the lineup and MacArthur may end up there if Timmy can't go Friday night. As usual, I see Paetsch in the press box unless something weird happens.

 

Looks like as a good a place as any to start. The only line I see pretty much as set at this point would be Paille-Hecht and Pommers. The juggling will begin on the others if it's not working or as soon as someone gets hurt. :rolleyes: (not mentioning any names)

 

The only possible changes I could see Lindy doing on forward would be switch Stafford and Max around re-uniting the RAV line

and on defense put Numminen with Sekera and Spock with Tally, now if by some chance Weber plays then why not put him back with Sekera and Spock with Numm's.

[shrader]

Considering the Sabres have no third line to speak of, that is going to put a tremendous burden on the top two lines.

 

Entertain my curiousity here. What exactly do you expect out of a third line?

[carpandean]

You're OK with only playing Gaustad for 3-4 minutes a game. Ellis/Peters - Mair - Kaleta is a fourth line I would expect to see in Portland not on a NHL team. Even when healthy, which he is not, Mair is a marginal NHL forward. Kaleta is a local kid and I get why people like him. But lets be honest, Kaleta on his best day should only be your 16th forward with limited minutes. Considering the Sabres have no third line to speak of, that is going to put a tremendous burden on the top two lines. Considering the top two lines are on the smallish side and have zero toughness I doubt they can last long under the pressure without injuries.

No, I wouldn't be happy with Gaustad for 3-4 minutes per game. Three things to consider:

 

1) Kaleta-Goose-Mair would get more than 3-4 minutes per game. Last year, Kaleta averaged over 6:00 TOI per game and Mair averaged nearly 10:00 minutes of non-special teams (PP, PK) TOI. Mair and Gaustad are both defensively sound and have decent enough offensive abilities to take more minutes, even with Kaleta's short-comings. Plus, they could do a good job of softening up the other teams with their physical play. I would expect 8-10 minutes of even strength time out of that line, maybe more.

 

2) Gaustad averaged 4:33 of special teams time (split 2/3 PP, 1/3 PK).

 

3) Gaustad could be put out to take crucial draws (right now, Roy is the only other center good enough on faceoffs to do so.)

 

So, even with another 2nd-line center and Connolly on the third, I would expect Gaustad to average only slightly less than his 17 minute average of last year. When Connolly is out, Goose would move up to the third and log more minutes. I actually wouldn't be surprised to find that the EV TOI for our fourth and third lines aren't too dissimilar in that healthy Connolly case.

[nfreeman]

Well, this thread is just a bit too sky-is-falling for my taste. Jeez. No talent on our 3rd line? A 4th line that should be in the AHL? 3 lines of softies? Let's remember:

 

1. this team was 4th in the NHL in scoring last year. That doesn't happen if you only have 2 good lines.

 

2. Paille will probably play on Hecht's line, and Gaustad when he returns will probably play with Connolly and Kotalik. That's 2 out of the top 3 lines with toughness (not including a pretty fair amount of chippiness/scrappiness in Roy and Max) -- and 3 out of 3 with plenty of skill and talent.

 

3. The 4th line will probably end up being Mair-Kaleta-Stafford. That is a very respectable 4th line, with plenty of jam and a bit of scoring talent. What exactly should we expect out of the 4th line? And why in the world would anyone not want Kaleta on the 4th line? He lays out a few big hits every game, he draws penalties and he makes the other team insane. Mair is tough, fast and a good team guy. Stafford is a talented guy but he needs to start on that line and work his way up.

 

4. When Connolly gets hurt, the 3rd line will probably be Gaustad-Kotalik-Stafford/MacArthur. That's a 23-goal scorer, a 16-goal scorer (Stafford had 16 in 64 games in a disappointing year), and a big, tough center who is pretty good at setting up in front and screening the goalie. MacArthur is only 23 years old, has shown flashes of real talent and has pretty good size (6'1", 191). Is that an untalented 3rd line?

 

5. Gerbe and Kennedy will be pushing everyone from below all year.

 

There are plenty of concerns entering into this season, but lack of talented forwards isn't one of them.

 

Just my opinion.

[Buffalo Wings]

I'm not certain how much this has been discussed. I have seen snippets in other threads but I felt a common ground was necessary. Here goes:

 

Vanek-Roy-Stafford

Paille-Hecht-Pominville

Kotalik-Connolly-Afinogenov

Ellis/Peters-Mair-Kaleta

 

Can someone tell me why Peters is still on the roster? :unsure:

[inkman]

Just my opinion.

 

I envy your optimism. Something about the lines bothers me. Quantifying Goose as representing toughness is debateable but also vaulting Paille to that status is shaky ground. Paille can play chippy and I like his overall game, even with his suspect hands, but I don't think opponents are looking over their shoulders wondering where Danny Paille is on the ice. Quite honestly, you may as well put Kotalik in the same category, as he does similar things. Now, is anybody going to argue that Kotalik brings toughness to the team? Didn't think so.

[X. Benedict]

Can someone tell me why Peters is still on the roster? :unsure:

 

To fight.

[Taro T]

To fight.

Not exactly. It's more of a to grab his opponent's shirt and turn his head away from his opponent and then throw punches across his body. Rayzor he ain't.

[inkman]

Not exactly. It's more of a to grab his opponent's shirt and turn his head away from his opponent and then throw punches across his body. Rayzor he ain't.

Too-Shay. (for any fans of PMR)

[X. Benedict]

Not exactly. It's more of a to grab his opponent's shirt and turn his head away from his opponent and then throw punches across his body. Rayzor he ain't.

 

He is paid to dance intrepidly and break hands with the back of his bucket.

[nfreeman]

I envy your optimism. Something about the lines bothers me. Quantifying Goose as representing toughness is debateable but also vaulting Paille to that status is shaky ground. Paille can play chippy and I like his overall game, even with his suspect hands, but I don't think opponents are looking over their shoulders wondering where Danny Paille is on the ice. Quite honestly, you may as well put Kotalik in the same category, as he does similar things. Now, is anybody going to argue that Kotalik brings toughness to the team? Didn't think so.

 

Paille isn't Chris Neil in terms of making the other team worried, but Chris Neil isn't a top 6 forward. Paille had 19 goals last year and should improve on that a bit if he sticks with Hecht and Pommer. Now, Paille isn't Brenden Morrow either, but there just aren't many of those on anyone's top line. Paille will, however, go flying into a scrum without hesitation to defend his teammates. That is the quality that I think you, me and many others think is insufficiently present on this team. My point was simply that every line needs that, and with Paille on the wing, Hecht's line has it.

 

I agree with you about Kotalik, but Gaustad is the one with the toughness on that line. And Kotalik does forecheck pretty well -- just with no edge whatsoever.

 

Even as an optimist, though, I too am not that happy with the lines. We're still not tough enough, either mentally or physically. My point was that we have plenty of talent but, like last year, we don't have enough leadership and mental toughness up front. Accordingly, I would love to see Shanny or someone like that brought in, perhaps as part of Tom W's predicted trade. And even if it doesn't happen right away, I have a lot of faith in Darcy and Lindy, and would not be at all surprised to see Tallinder or Spacek traded in a package for a tough forward who can score, with the tough forward plus a promoted Weber (plus Rivet) creating a substantially different vibe on the ice.

[inkman]

...with the tough forward plus a promoted Weber (plus Rivet) creating a substantially different vibe on the ice.

 

Amen, brother, amen. :worthy:

[james duncan]

Can someone tell me why Peters is still on the roster? :unsure:

 

Well? He plays for pretty much the vet minimum. He doesn't complain about lack of ice time. And someone pretty high up apparently likes him--they never bring someone in to challenge him for his roster spot. Sorry--not a very compelling list.

[LabattBlue]

Well? He plays for pretty much the vet minimum. He doesn't complain about lack of ice time. And someone pretty high up apparently likes him--they never bring someone in to challenge him for his roster spot. Sorry--not a very compelling list.

I'll give you another reason why they DON'T need Peters...Ottawa got rid of McGratton.

 

One goon fighting another goon = two roster spots wasted. ;)

[X. Benedict]

I'll give you another reason why they DON'T need Peters...Ottawa got rid of McGratton.

 

One goon fighting another goon = two roster spots wasted. ;)

 

George Laraque is a Canadien.

 

Who is going to square with him? Kaleta?

 

s1jY2wGuc1s

[LabattBlue]

George Laraque is a Canadien.

 

Who is going to square with him? Kaleta?

 

s1jY2wGuc1s

So for 6 games a year, we have to keep Peters.

 

 

PS At least Laraque can skate on the 4th line and not embarass himself. ;)

[X. Benedict]

So for 6 games a year, we have to keep Peters.

PS At least Laraque can skate on the 4th line and not embarass himself. ;)

 

There is also Cote, Brashear, Orr, Clarkson etc.

 

As long as the NHL endorses fighting, and the league still does, they will need somebody to do it.

When nobody is there to step up, then this kind of stuff happens to guys like Paetsch or whoever.

 

Laraque was sending a message that nobody hits Malkin.

Paetsch paid the price because because nobody was ready to go.

 

It doesn't have to be Peters, but somebody better be able to do it.

[LabattBlue]

There is also Cote, Brashear, Orr, Clarkson etc.

 

As long as the NHL endorses fighting, and the league still does, they will need somebody to do it.

When nobody is there to step up, then this kind of stuff happens to guys like Paetsch or whoever.

 

Laraque was sending a message that nobody hits Malkin.

Paetsch paid the price because because nobody was ready to go.

 

It doesn't have to be Peters, but somebody better be able to do it.

So how is it that the Sabres get by when Peters doesn't dress for half the season or more?

 

When Peters doesn't dress, the other teams goon(if they even have one) sits on the bench the whole game and the Sabres end up with a 12th forward that can contribute.

[jimiVbaby]

Paille isn't Chris Neil in terms of making the other team worried, but Chris Neil isn't a top 6 forward. Paille had 19 goals last year and should improve on that a bit if he sticks with Hecht and Pommer. Now, Paille isn't Brenden Morrow either, but there just aren't many of those on anyone's top line. Paille will, however, go flying into a scrum without hesitation to defend his teammates. That is the quality that I think you, me and many others think is insufficiently present on this team. My point was simply that every line needs that, and with Paille on the wing, Hecht's line has it.

 

I agree with you about Kotalik, but Gaustad is the one with the toughness on that line. And Kotalik does forecheck pretty well -- just with no edge whatsoever.

 

Even as an optimist, though, I too am not that happy with the lines. We're still not tough enough, either mentally or physically. My point was that we have plenty of talent but, like last year, we don't have enough leadership and mental toughness up front. Accordingly, I would love to see Shanny or someone like that brought in, perhaps as part of Tom W's predicted trade. And even if it doesn't happen right away, I have a lot of faith in Darcy and Lindy, and would not be at all surprised to see Tallinder or Spacek traded in a package for a tough forward who can score, with the tough forward plus a promoted Weber (plus Rivet) creating a substantially different vibe on the ice.

I guess besides Shanny, who realistically fills this role and would be expendable by their current team?

[Buffalo Wings]

So how is it that the Sabres get by when Peters doesn't dress for half the season or more?

 

When Peters doesn't dress, the other teams goon(if they even have one) sits on the bench the whole game and the Sabres end up with a 12th forward that can contribute.

This is exactly what I was trying to get at.

 

At least Kaleta can contribute something other than a bad fight within the first 5 minutes, then a whopping 45 seconds of ice time for the remainder of the game. I'd rather have Kaleta be an agitator (i.e., Sean Avery) than have Peters show up to try and punch someone.

[X. Benedict]

This is exactly what I was trying to get at.

 

At least Kaleta can contribute something other than a bad fight within the first 5 minutes, then a whopping 45 seconds of ice time for the remainder of the game. I'd rather have Kaleta be an agitator (i.e., Sean Avery) than have Peters show up to try and punch someone.

 

Well here's the irony, Kaleta hits Malkin with a clean hit.

Pittsburgh doesn't like it and says somebody has to show up.

Nobody does.

Paetsch gets concussed.

 

That's how it works.

Fighting isn't about fighting, strictly speaking, it is about who hits who and who gets time and space.

 

If Kaleta plays his game, somebody is going to have to clean up even if the hits are clean.

[That Aud Smell]

Well here's the irony, Kaleta hits Malkin with a clean hit.

Pittsburgh doesn't like it and says somebody has to show up.

Nobody does.

Paetsch gets concussed.

 

That's how it works.

Fighting isn't about fighting, strictly speaking, it is about who hits who and who gets time and space.

 

If Kaleta plays his game, somebody is going to have to clean up even if the hits are clean.

i follow this logic, to a point.

 

what i am left asking is what the actual utility of the designated fighter is. i mean, after kaleta takes out malkin with a good clean check, laraque (or whomever) isn't going to change his behavior or make different choices because we dressed peters -- no, he's going to take a run at someone to exact an amount of revenge.

 

so what does the inevitable tilt with our goon amount to? a charade? a proxy? i'm confused.

[nfreeman]

i follow this logic, to a point.

 

what i am left asking is what the actual utility of the designated fighter is. i mean, after kaleta takes out malkin with a good clean check, laraque (or whomever) isn't going to change his behavior or make different choices because we dressed peters -- no, he's going to take a run at someone to exact an amount of revenge.

 

so what does the inevitable tilt with our goon amount to? a charade? a proxy? i'm confused.

 

I could be wrong, but I think the "code" would dictate that LaRacque would have to go after Peters (assuming he played in that game and came out in the next couple of shifts) -- otherwise, if LaRacque went after someone else, the code would justify (or require) Peters going after one of their civilians.