Corp000085 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 ti2RDsbJQRI discuss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderbread Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 I feel it was a huge error to send him packing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristian Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Always nice to see the Sens lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 I feel it was a huge error to send him packing. Where was the money to sign Dumont? You can thank Danny Briere going to arbitration for that. Similarly, had the Sabres signed Briere and Drury had decided to stay, how would the Sabres have afforded to keep Vanek, Roy, Miller, Pominville, etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 If we are going to rehash history I must say they should have never broken up 'the French Connection', traded Rick Martin or Schoeny or Tony Mckegney to the Nordiques for Real Cloutier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two or less Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Where was the money to sign Dumont? You can thank Danny Briere going to arbitration for that. Similarly, had the Sabres signed Briere and Drury had decided to stay, how would the Sabres have afforded to keep Vanek, Roy, Miller, Pominville, etc.? Bingo. They had to allow some players to go. Besides, we won the President's Trophy without him, so, he was definetly replaceable. Players who struggled or got hurt aka Max, Connolly, MacArthur and Stafford was the main reason for Sabres downfall. Not losing guys like Dumont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp000085 Posted August 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 I'll take this in another direction. I still f-ing hate the senators. Ray "Boom Boom" Emery is an AHL goalie at best who got lucky with a great team in front of him one year. Watching him get sunburned sitting on his stupid hummer crashing butt will forever make me smile. The NHL will sorely miss this asshat of biblical proportions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlaw16511 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 The money to sign Dumont was Kotalik's current contract. Dumont's arbitration award is what we're paying Kotalik. It was a bad decision to get rid of JP. I'd take him back on this team without even blinking. Sure he was streaky but he also was good on the forecheck and would bang a bit and get dirty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 The money to sign Dumont was Kotalik's current contract. Dumont's arbitration award is what we're paying Kotalik. It was a bad decision to get rid of JP. I'd take him back on this team without even blinking. Sure he was streaky but he also was good on the forecheck and would bang a bit and get dirty. Dumont's arbitration award was $2.9MM. Kotalik's cap hit is $2.33MM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderbread Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Dumont's arbitration award was $2.9MM. Kotalik's cap hit is $2.33MM. add Kotalik's $$ to Peter's $$ and there you have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 I miss J.P. That's all I'll say about that, hindsight is always 20-20. But I will always remember that goal because it was the first game I was back from my honeymoon ... the first two games of that series I had to sweat out watching the bottom line on ESPN2 in Jamaica. No, I didn't sit there the whole game, I'm still married ... but during Game 1 we got back to the room and the first thing I saw was Senators 6, Sabres 5 with like a minute left in the 3rd .... the next time around it was Senators 6, Sabres 6 ... and 15 minutes later I see Sabres 7, Senators 6, F/OT ... and the wife wasn't even done changing yet ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Wings Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 So what are you saying, Corp? :unsure: If we could take him back now (albeit he's 2 years older), I don't see how anyone should argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp000085 Posted August 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 So what are you saying, Corp? :unsure: If we could take him back now (albeit he's 2 years older), I don't see how anyone should argue. I really had no intention of starting a "what if" thread in regards to dumont... I was strictly commenting on the awesomeness of that particular youtube clip. That ottawa series was one for the ages, and i've never heard the HSBC as loud as it was that night. Now for my comments on dumont... At the time, signing kotalik seemed more reasonable than locking up dumont. JP was very streaky and when he was low, he was varada bad... When he was good, he was erik rassmussen in the 01 playoffs good (for those of you who don't remember, that would be really good, but for a couple of games). Plus, we cut ties with dumont to potentially lock up drury and briere long term. Now, in hindsight, i'd love for the sabres to have signed jp, dumped kotalik, let drury and briere walk, and then had a core of pominville, roy, jp, hecht, vanek, etc. But, that's hindsight. At the time, kotalik had a better upside than dumont... Now two years down the road, we see that dumont might have had a slightly better impact but whatever. I'm happy with what the sabres have done since they agreed to briere's arbitration, and hopefully in 10 months we'll have a fresh set of youtube clips to relish in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabresFan526 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Dumont's arbitration award was $2.9MM. Kotalik's cap hit is $2.33MM. Connolly's cap hit is $2.9 million. Personally, if it were me, and I was Regier, knowing what I knew then that Connolly had a very serious neck/head injury and who had already had a serious concussion that prevented him from playing an entire season (2003-2004), I'd have signed Dumont to the $2.9 million arbitration award and not signed Connolly at all. I would have let Connolly go on the open market and kept Dumont and tried to sign him to an extension in January 2007, but that's me. History aside, it was a great, ugly goal. That was such a slow floater that it's hilarious that it got by Emery. Great goal, and always fun to see the Sens lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodfella25 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Kotalik is a bargain at that price. He had 23 goals last year (4th on team), 12 (2nd on the team) on the PP. For all the crap he gets from fans, that's a bargain these days. I think if people want to complain about contracts then they should look at all the guarenteed money we tossed Tim Connolly. Or look at the stupid contracts we gave Teppo the last few seasons--all of which were overpaying for a veteran defenseman who actually wants to be in Buffalo. Makes you think we'd be dealing from a position of leverage, yet the contracts don't indicate that at all. Nevertheless, Briere is the main reason Dumont is not a Sabre, plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Where was the money to sign Dumont? You can thank Danny Briere going to arbitration for that. Similarly, had the Sabres signed Briere and Drury had decided to stay, how would the Sabres have afforded to keep Vanek, Roy, Miller, Pominville, etc.? Since you asked Drury 5.30 Briere 5.00 Roy 4.00 Vanek 4.00 Dumont 2.90 Stafford 0.85 Gaustad 2.30 Paille 1.50 Pominville 5.00 Kaleta 0.49 Mair 0.76 Anyone 0.85 Anyone 0.85 Spacek 3.30 Lydman 2.90 Tallinder 2.56 Paetsch 0.85 Sekera 0.68 Rivet 3.50 Teppo 1.10 Miller 6.13 Lalime 1.00 Cap hit 55.81, should be noted I made everyone's cap hit effective this year even though Pominville and Miller don't take place till next year. I lost Connolly, Hecht, Max, Kotalik and gave Vanek the contract Horton signed one week before free agency. Finally, I am not advocating either direction just making the point that those that say it couldn't have been done are incorrect. Call it 20/20, revisionist history, whatever but it would have been fun watching the above line up for three more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Kotalik is a bargain at that price. He had 23 goals last year (4th on team), 12 (2nd on the team) on the PP. For all the crap he gets from fans, that's a bargain these days. I think if people want to complain about contracts then they should look at all the guarenteed money we tossed Tim Connolly. Or look at the stupid contracts we gave Teppo the last few seasons--all of which were overpaying for a veteran defenseman who actually wants to be in Buffalo. Makes you think we'd be dealing from a position of leverage, yet the contracts don't indicate that at all. Nevertheless, Briere is the main reason Dumont is not a Sabre, plain and simple. Please explain. What was Briere supposed to sign for that would have made Dumont affordable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 gave Vanek the contract Horton signed one week before free agency. 12 extra goals and 22 extra points aren't worth anything? Just saying ... that one may be a bit of a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 12 extra goals and 22 extra points aren't worth anything? Just saying ... that one may be a bit of a stretch. I think even now that if you polled all GM's the vote would be close to 50/50 on these players but you can give him another million if you want and tweak somewhere else, the point would be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 I think even now that if you polled all GM's the vote would be close to 50/50 on these players but you can give him another million if you want and tweak somewhere else, the point would be the same. I'm not completely disagreeing with your point, but at the time that they were making some of these decisions (Drury and Briere), they would have to have at least set aside $5 million a year for Vanek if they thought they would keep him. Also, you are assuming that they knew the cap would sky rocket like it did. If that were true, they'd all be rich(er) from investing in oil and Canadian dollar futures. Some growth was expected, but not that much. In fact, had it been universally expected, Drury and Briere probably would have gotten even bigger contracts (imagine if they had been on this summer's FA list instead.) Generally, they could comfortably have kept one and probably squeaked by with both. There would have been a lot of "ifs", though, and each one that went the wrong way would have meant a cut hear or lost contract there. For example, let's say they went with your plan, did their best to sign Vanek, but he stuck to his "wait and see plan." When the $7 million/year offer comes in, their plan is shot. Decision time ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 I'm not completely disagreeing with your point, but at the time that they were making some of these decisions (Drury and Briere), they would have to have at least set aside $5 million a year for Vanek if they thought they would keep him. Also, you are assuming that they knew the cap would sky rocket like it did. If that were true, they'd all be rich(er) from investing in oil and Canadian dollar futures. Some growth was expected, but not that much. In fact, had it been universally expected, Drury and Briere probably would have gotten even bigger contracts (imagine if they had been on this summer's FA list instead.) Generally, they could comfortably have kept one and probably squeaked by with both. There would have been a lot of "ifs", though, and each one that went the wrong way would have meant a cut hear or lost contract there. For example, let's say they went with your plan, did their best to sign Vanek, but he stuck to his "wait and see plan." When the $7 million/year offer comes in, their plan is shot. Decision time ... Carp, I really don't want to rehash this whole thing again. We both know there were a lot of variables involved. My only point was that they could have done it, not that they should have done it or that it would have been easy. My only beef is with those that continue to say it was impossible or that somehow Briere caused the whole domino effect by going to arbitration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 ...or that somehow Briere caused the whole domino effect by going to arbitration. No but the arbitrator or in reality the arbitration process is what screwed the Sabres. No one was anticipating the 5 million for a player coming off half a good season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 No but the arbitrator or in reality the arbitration process is what screwed the Sabres. No one was anticipating the 5 million for a player coming off half a good season. I wasn't here during this process, but this is one I just don't get. A few things 1) The season before the lock out, in the "old" NHL, he registered 28 goals and 65 points 2) The Sabres' FO touted him and Drury as their leaders 3) Havlat, Arnott and other contracts signed before the process 4) The NHLPA chose him as the first case, expecting to set the bar 5) The Sabres themselves went to great pains to leak the fact that they offered over $4 million on a multi year deal. Maybe they didn't expect $5 million, but the people I hung around with expected over $4. Did the million dollars really make a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 I wasn't here during this process, but this is one I just don't get. A few things 1) The season before the lock out, in the "old" NHL, he registered 28 goals and 65 points 2) The Sabres' FO touted him and Drury as their leaders 3) Havlat, Arnott and other contracts signed before the process 4) The NHLPA chose him as the first case, expecting to set the bar 5) The Sabres themselves went to great pains to leak the fact that they offered over $4 million on a multi year deal. Maybe they didn't expect $5 million, but the people I hung around with expected over $4. Did the million dollars really make a difference? I think is was more the lack of leadership he showed. The Sabre wanted Danny to be the leader of the franchise and he went for the cash grab. The Sabres were put off by the disloyalty. Consider a couple seasons prior Briere was working his way out of the NHL and the Sabres gave him a second chance in a system that allowed him to flourish. It was during that process that Sabres learned B-Rod was not the man they thought he was and his future with the team woudl not go beyond his contractual obligations. IMO, the Sabre are a better team for it. I look at Ryan Miller who took less than what he would have received on the open market to be a Sabre and a leader. I'll always have more respect for Miller than B-Rod because of that. Sure B-rod was within his rights and the rules. That is not and never was the bigger issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 [/b]I think is was more the lack of leadership he showed. The Sabre wanted Danny to be the leader of the franchise and he went for the cash grab. The Sabres were put off by the disloyalty. Consider a couple seasons prior Briere was working his way out of the NHL and the Sabres gave him a second chance in a system that allowed him to flourish. It was during that process that Sabres learned B-Rod was not the man they thought he was and his future with the team woudl not go beyond his contractual obligations. IMO, the Sabre are a better team for it. I look at Ryan Miller who took less than what he would have received on the open market to be a Sabre and a leader. I'll always have more respect for Miller than B-Rod because of that. Sure B-rod was within his rights and the rules. That is not and never was the bigger issue. So again, the issue changes. It wasn't the money, just the disloyalty. Glad to see you are on record as saying that Miller took less then he could have gotten. Apparently you and Larry figured out the hometown discount thing exists at about the same time. One final thing, the fact that Phoenix was ready to run him out of the league less then a half of a season after his breakout year says more about them then him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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