2ForTripping Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 Just herd on the radio that Big Jay-bo is staying put. 1 year @ 4.8 mil was what it sounded like .
SabresFan526 Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 I can't seem to find the terms, but it does appear to be a one year deal. Here are a couple of other sources confirming what you heard on the radio: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/hockey/...0,4868276.story http://www.palmbeachpost.com/panthers/cont...ouwmeester.html http://www.hockeyfights.com/news/101806 All I think is that they averted arbitration, which nobody really wanted. I still don't think he re-signs with Florida, and most certainly will be traded before the year is out. And, this could very well be a sign and trade situation just to avert arbitration. We'll see how this plays out.
inkman Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 All I think is that they averted arbitration, which nobody really wanted. I still don't think he re-signs with Florida, and most certainly will be traded before the year is out. And, this could very well be a sign and trade situation just to avert arbitration. We'll see how this plays out. So the "I heard Max, Stafford and Sekera for Bowmeester" Threads will continue for the next few months? Awesome! :wallbash:
Bmwolf21 Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 So the "I heard Max, Stafford and Sekera for Bowmeester" Threads will continue for the next few months? Awesome! :wallbash: You know I hate the unrealistic trade threads as much as anyone, but I can see the Panthers settling for less than that. If they think they are going to lose him to FA, then why not take what you can get? I find it hard to believe that the package they got from Phoenix for Jokinen was the best they could do in that case...
SabresFan526 Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 So the "I heard Max, Stafford and Sekera for Bowmeester" Threads will continue for the next few months? Awesome! :wallbash: Sorry, but you forgot to add Peters, and the re-signing and immediate trading of Mike Ryan as part of the package for Bouwmeester and also Horton coming back.
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 So the "I heard Max, Stafford and Sekera for Bowmeester" Threads will continue for the next few months? Awesome! :wallbash: At first glance, I hear ya ... that doesn't seem like enough ... On the other hand ... they are facing the prospect of losing him for nothing. When the Sabres were faced with that prospect, they traded Campbell for Bernier (former 1st round pick) and a first rounder. Now, we agree Bouwmeester is better than Campbell, but Campbell's value was similar in that he was going to be the top D-man on the market and fetched HUGE money. So really, in terms of their value, they are not that much different ... Stafford is a former first-round pick who has shown as much or more at the NHL level than Bernier, IMO. Sekera, while a former 3rd round pick, is developing nicely and is less of a risk than a draft pick, no matter how high. Throw in Max ... I don't know, not saying it's a great deal but it's not that far off ... what if it was Stafford, Sekera and a first-rounder? Or Butler instead of the first-rounder? Just sayin' ... every day that goes by, the closer they get to losing him for nothing. maybe someone will get more desperate as the season goes on, but so will they get more desperate ... i don't think there is any way the Sabres go after him, it will be expensive ... and to me any deal where they give up Stafford and Sekera is expensive. So I am not arguing that they will be in it for him ... just saying that package is not HORRIBLE ... not quite enough, but not horrible ...
inkman Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 but I can see the Panthers settling for less than that. Sure, but what indication from the Sabres have we ever gotten to make us think it wuold ever happen?
inkman Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 At first glance, I hear ya ... that doesn't seem like enough ... ^^^^^
nfreeman Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 So the "I heard Max, Stafford and Sekera for Bowmeester" Threads will continue for the next few months? Awesome! :wallbash: You know I hate the unrealistic trade threads as much as anyone, but I can see the Panthers settling for less than that. If they think they are going to lose him to FA, then why not take what you can get? I find it hard to believe that the package they got from Phoenix for Jokinen was the best they could do in that case... Well, maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think the Sabres would give up those 3 for Bouwmeester. Max plus one of the other 2 plus a draft pick or another Portlander, yes. But not all 3. Now, plenty of GMs would, and so would plenty of Sabrespace GMs, but I don't think Darcy would. So there.
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 ^^^^^ Like I said, i agree about the Sabres side of it ... Come on, ink, you know half the time I am arguing with myself.
nobody Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 Can we at least wait until a week before the trade deadline to bring this back up?
Bmwolf21 Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 Well, maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think the Sabres would give up those 3 for Bouwmeester. Max plus one of the other 2 plus a draft pick or another Portlander, yes. But not all 3. Now, plenty of GMs would, and so would plenty of Sabrespace GMs, but I don't think Darcy would. So there. Agreed, which is part of the reason I said I could see the Panthers settling for less than those three.
inkman Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 ... i don't think there is any way the Sabres go after him... Like I said, i agree about the Sabres side of it ...Come on, ink, you know half the time I am arguing with myself. Yeah, I didn't even get to within 50 words of this part of your post. Me no likey read.
inkman Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 ...but I don't think Darcy would. I don't think the Sabres would make the trade regargless of who they had to give up. I don't see them being in the market for a 6-8 million dollar a year player.
Guest Sloth Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 I'd be beyond mad if they give up Stafford and Sekara for him. I could settle w/ Stafford being traded, but not Sekara. He is already playing well and he has shown a serious amount of potential. Bouwmeester is over rated and he'd cost way too much the following season.
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 I'd be beyond mad if they give up Stafford and Sekara for him. I could settle w/ Stafford being traded, but not Sekara. He is already playing well and he has shown a serious amount of potential. Bouwmeester is over rated and he'd cost way too much the following season. Funny, if I had to pick one to keep I'd rather keep Stafford. I have no good reason to doubt Sekera, I just like Stafford, I think he is going to be very good. As for Bouwmeester, I don't think he is overrated, he's going to be great, but he will cost too much for the Sabres budget.
Guest Sloth Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 Funny, if I had to pick one to keep I'd rather keep Stafford. I have no good reason to doubt Sekera, I just like Stafford, I think he is going to be very good. As for Bouwmeester, I don't think he is overrated, he's going to be great, but he will cost too much for the Sabres budget. I just can't believe the contracts a number of players are signing in the NHL. It just doesn't seem like the NHL is making enough money to be paying so many players 6 million or more. I can understand goalies and super star players making that much, but too many above average players are being over paid.
SabresFan526 Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 Funny, if I had to pick one to keep I'd rather keep Stafford. I have no good reason to doubt Sekera, I just like Stafford, I think he is going to be very good. As for Bouwmeester, I don't think he is overrated, he's going to be great, but he will cost too much for the Sabres budget. Well, let's use Campbell as the closest comparable that we can get to Bouwmeester. I don't think Campbell is worth Campbell money, but I certainly don't think Bouwmeester is worth Campbell money either. Now, I think Bouwmeester is probably a top pair defenseman who is very good defensively and pretty good offensively. I also understand that his numbers have been stunted by the fact he plays on a very bad Florida team. However, the numbers he's put up do not justify the talk of him being in the Campbell pay scale and because he'll most likely be the best UFA defenseman coming out next year, he will likely demand Campbell type money for that I think he's overrated. Here's a comparison of Campbell's stats to Bouwmeester's stats in the 3 years since the lockout Campbell (age 29) 79 12 32 44 -14 82 6 42 48 +28 83 8 54 62 +8 Bouwmeester (age 24 going on 25) 82 5 41 46 +1 82 12 30 42 +23 82 15 22 37 -5 Overall, his point totals are lower than Campbell and his +/- while not as good as Campbell's because of how bad the Panthers have been still does not justify the type of money people think he could get in next year's UFA market. Personally, I would argue that Florida definitely had the talent last year to be competitive with Horton, Weiss, Jokinen, Zednik, Bouwmeester, Van Ryn, Vokoun, Kreps, Olesz, etc. So the argument that Florida is a really bad team with no talent does not work with me because I see the talent level from last year's Florida team and last year's Buffalo team and I think it's pretty close even though head-to-head Buffalo pasted Florida. So, I'm not going to buy the argument that Bouwmeester is surrounded by poor talent and a bad goalie therefore a low +/- because Vokoun was a starter in Nashville that took them to the playoffs. I'm also not going to buy the argument that there's not enough talent on the team and hence his offensive output is low when clearly they had some decent talent last year. Since his numbers are not really close to Campbell's I just cannot justify him being such a highly paid defenseman and I don't think he's worth it for the Sabres, and in general, I find him to be overrated even though he was the first pick in his draft class. While I don't think Campbell is even close to the money he's making with Chicago, I don't think Bouwmeester is anywhere close to that category given what he has done in his career to this point. That's my opinion, at least.
Guest Sloth Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 Well, let's use Campbell as the closest comparable that we can get to Bouwmeester. I don't think Campbell is worth Campbell money, but I certainly don't think Bouwmeester is worth Campbell money either. Now, I think Bouwmeester is probably a top pair defenseman who is very good defensively and pretty good offensively. I also understand that his numbers have been stunted by the fact he plays on a very bad Florida team. However, the numbers he's put up do not justify the talk of him being in the Campbell pay scale and because he'll most likely be the best UFA defenseman coming out next year, he will likely demand Campbell type money for that I think he's overrated. Here's a comparison of Campbell's stats to Bouwmeester's stats in the 3 years since the lockout Campbell (age 29) 79 12 32 44 -14 82 6 42 48 +28 83 8 54 62 +8 Bouwmeester (age 24 going on 25) 82 5 41 46 +1 82 12 30 42 +23 82 15 22 37 -5 Overall, his point totals are lower than Campbell and his +/- while not as good as Campbell's because of how bad the Panthers have been still does not justify the type of money people think he could get in next year's UFA market. Personally, I would argue that Florida definitely had the talent last year to be competitive with Horton, Weiss, Jokinen, Zednik, Bouwmeester, Van Ryn, Vokoun, Kreps, Olesz, etc. So the argument that Florida is a really bad team with no talent does not work with me because I see the talent level from last year's Florida team and last year's Buffalo team and I think it's pretty close even though head-to-head Buffalo pasted Florida. So, I'm not going to buy the argument that Bouwmeester is surrounded by poor talent and a bad goalie therefore a low +/- because Vokoun was a starter in Nashville that took them to the playoffs. I'm also not going to buy the argument that there's not enough talent on the team and hence his offensive output is low when clearly they had some decent talent last year. Since his numbers are not really close to Campbell's I just cannot justify him being such a highly paid defenseman and I don't think he's worth it for the Sabres, and in general, I find him to be overrated even though he was the first pick in his draft class. While I don't think Campbell is even close to the money he's making with Chicago, I don't think Bouwmeester is anywhere close to that category given what he has done in his career to this point. That's my opinion, at least. I agree w/ you 110% :thumbsup:
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 Well, let's use Campbell as the closest comparable that we can get to Bouwmeester. I don't think Campbell is worth Campbell money, but I certainly don't think Bouwmeester is worth Campbell money either. Now, I think Bouwmeester is probably a top pair defenseman who is very good defensively and pretty good offensively. I also understand that his numbers have been stunted by the fact he plays on a very bad Florida team. However, the numbers he's put up do not justify the talk of him being in the Campbell pay scale and because he'll most likely be the best UFA defenseman coming out next year, he will likely demand Campbell type money for that I think he's overrated. Here's a comparison of Campbell's stats to Bouwmeester's stats in the 3 years since the lockout Campbell (age 29) 79 12 32 44 -14 82 6 42 48 +28 83 8 54 62 +8 Bouwmeester (age 24 going on 25) 82 5 41 46 +1 82 12 30 42 +23 82 15 22 37 -5 Overall, his point totals are lower than Campbell and his +/- while not as good as Campbell's because of how bad the Panthers have been still does not justify the type of money people think he could get in next year's UFA market. Personally, I would argue that Florida definitely had the talent last year to be competitive with Horton, Weiss, Jokinen, Zednik, Bouwmeester, Van Ryn, Vokoun, Kreps, Olesz, etc. So the argument that Florida is a really bad team with no talent does not work with me because I see the talent level from last year's Florida team and last year's Buffalo team and I think it's pretty close even though head-to-head Buffalo pasted Florida. So, I'm not going to buy the argument that Bouwmeester is surrounded by poor talent and a bad goalie therefore a low +/- because Vokoun was a starter in Nashville that took them to the playoffs. I'm also not going to buy the argument that there's not enough talent on the team and hence his offensive output is low when clearly they had some decent talent last year. Since his numbers are not really close to Campbell's I just cannot justify him being such a highly paid defenseman and I don't think he's worth it for the Sabres, and in general, I find him to be overrated even though he was the first pick in his draft class. While I don't think Campbell is even close to the money he's making with Chicago, I don't think Bouwmeester is anywhere close to that category given what he has done in his career to this point. That's my opinion, at least. Look, they are ALL over-priced. But they are worth what someone will pay, and someone is going to pay Bouwmeester HUGE. He already has 5 full seasons under his belt and has played 82 games in 4 of them ... he's got at least 10 more years ahead of him, so there is less risk in giving him a 7+ year deal than there is someone older. Campbell could not even stay on the ice and was getting scratched 25 times a season when he was 24 and 25 ... You are also using mostly offensive stats to compare them which is always going to be in Campbell's favor, his game is built around offense, Bowumeester's is not. Even if I give you that "talent level from last year's Florida team and last year's Buffalo team and I think it's pretty close," what about the season before? In 06-07 Campbell was on a MUCH better team that scored like crazy and won the Presidents trophy, yet Bouwmeester's numbers were almost the same, including plus/minus. the year before that he scored MORE than Campbell and was +15 better ... yet you say "Since his numbers are not really close to Campbell's ..." ... If anything, using those numbers, it looks like Campbell is a one-year wonder who had a big contract year but really isn't much better offensively than Bouwmeester, while Bouwmeester chips in a bit offensively and is a better defender. Again, not saying the Sabres (or anyone) should give away the farm and pay Bouwmeester $7million+ ... that does not fit with their salary structure ... but using the numbers you put out there, including age, I can't see how Bouwmeester is overrated compared to Campbell.
wjag Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 I don't see them being in the market for a 6-8 million dollar a year player. Again......
SabresFan526 Posted July 28, 2008 Report Posted July 28, 2008 Look, they are ALL over-priced. But they are worth what someone will pay, and someone is going to pay Bouwmeester HUGE. He already has 5 full seasons under his belt and has played 82 games in 4 of them ... he's got at least 10 more years ahead of him, so there is less risk in giving him a 7+ year deal than there is someone older. Campbell could not even stay on the ice and was getting scratched 25 times a season when he was 24 and 25 ... You are also using mostly offensive stats to compare them which is always going to be in Campbell's favor, his game is built around offense, Bowumeester's is not. Even if I give you that "talent level from last year's Florida team and last year's Buffalo team and I think it's pretty close," what about the season before? In 06-07 Campbell was on a MUCH better team that scored like crazy and won the Presidents trophy, yet Bouwmeester's numbers were almost the same, including plus/minus. the year before that he scored MORE than Campbell and was +15 better ... yet you say "Since his numbers are not really close to Campbell's ..." ... If anything, using those numbers, it looks like Campbell is a one-year wonder who had a big contract year but really isn't much better offensively than Bouwmeester, while Bouwmeester chips in a bit offensively and is a better defender.Again, not saying the Sabres (or anyone) should give away the farm and pay Bouwmeester $7million+ ... that does not fit with their salary structure ... but using the numbers you put out there, including age, I can't see how Bouwmeester is overrated compared to Campbell. Here's the key. Campbell has improved sequentially year-over-year since the lockout. Bouwmeester's numbers have trailed off in each year since the lockout. I recognize your point, however, Bouwmeester's production does not justify the money some people think he will make, and for that I believe he is overrated and overhyped. If we go with the hypothesis that Bouwmeester is better than Campbell defensively, unfortunately, there aren't many great stats out there that necessarily proves that he is better than Campbell defensively aside from maybe +/- and if we go by that stat, Campbell's is slightly better. I think Campbell's +/- gets inflated because of the type of teams he played for and goals scored, but the talent level and goaltending around Bouwmeester while not great, certainly was not bad this past season with Tomas Vokoun. And, his +/- was very high in a season when he didn't even have Tomas Vokoun nor Roberto Luongo during the 2006-2007 season. Look, I don't think Bouwmeester is a bad player by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just saying he has not done enough up to this point in his career to get a 7 year $50+ million contract. I don't even think Campbell deserves that money, but if we compare respective production and see that Campbell is getting that kind of money, I don't see how Bouwmeester justifies that kind of money given his production career to date. I'm not saying he's a bad player, but I don't think he'd be worth it for the Sabres nor do I think he'd be worth that kind of money to a lot of teams except maybe the Kings and Thrashers who need to pay that kind of money to SOMEONE just to hit the cap floor.
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 29, 2008 Report Posted July 29, 2008 Here's the key. Campbell has improved sequentially year-over-year since the lockout. Bouwmeester's numbers have trailed off in each year since the lockout. I recognize your point, however, Bouwmeester's production does not justify the money some people think he will make, and for that I believe he is overrated and overhyped. If we go with the hypothesis that Bouwmeester is better than Campbell defensively, unfortunately, there aren't many great stats out there that necessarily proves that he is better than Campbell defensively aside from maybe +/- and if we go by that stat, Campbell's is slightly better. I think Campbell's +/- gets inflated because of the type of teams he played for and goals scored, but the talent level and goaltending around Bouwmeester while not great, certainly was not bad this past season with Tomas Vokoun. And, his +/- was very high in a season when he didn't even have Tomas Vokoun nor Roberto Luongo during the 2006-2007 season. Look, I don't think Bouwmeester is a bad player by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just saying he has not done enough up to this point in his career to get a 7 year $50+ million contract. I don't even think Campbell deserves that money, but if we compare respective production and see that Campbell is getting that kind of money, I don't see how Bouwmeester justifies that kind of money given his production career to date. I'm not saying he's a bad player, but I don't think he'd be worth it for the Sabres nor do I think he'd be worth that kind of money to a lot of teams except maybe the Kings and Thrashers who need to pay that kind of money to SOMEONE just to hit the cap floor. If you are going to keep talking about "production," he'll never be worth the money... but whoever gets him wouldn't be paying him to "produce" points. And I agree he wille be overPAID, a lot of guys are ... bt he's not overRATED ... Consider: Chara got $7.5 million a year two years ago and he never scored more than 43 points in a season at that point. It's not just about points for defensemen. Chara's first year in Boston he was -21 ... his second year he was +14 ... so the kind of team you have around you DOES matter when you play 26 minutes+ every night and you match up against the best scoring lines like Chara and Bouwmeester do ... if the team sucks, your +/- numbers are gonna suffer. Campbell never played more than 22 minutes a night before last season and never did it against top scoring lines. Jovanovski is another example ... $6.5 million a year on a deal signed 2 years ago, so that was high then ... never had more than 48 points in a season before last year ... these are the guys to whom Bouwmeester is comparable, not Campbell. Look at Bouwmeester's career so far, not just his numbers, but also the durability, the ice time on a top pair, against other top lines, killing penalties, all the stuff Campbell never did before last season and in some cases still does not do ... and doing it at his age ... he compares nicely to Chara and Jovanovski ... he's a very good player and still can expect to get better at that age ... maybe the market has gotten crazy, but from a pure hockey standpoint, I don't think he is overrated. OverPAID, yeah he will be, but not overRATED ... he's on pace to be everything a top 5 pick should be.
Bmwolf21 Posted July 29, 2008 Report Posted July 29, 2008 If you are going to keep talking about "production," he'll never be worth the money... but whoever gets him wouldn't be paying him to "produce" points. And I agree he wille be overPAID, a lot of guys are ... bt he's not overRATED ...Consider: Chara got $7.5 million a year two years ago and he never scored more than 43 points in a season at that point. It's not just about points for defensemen. Chara's first year in Boston he was -21 ... his second year he was +14 ... so the kind of team you have around you DOES matter when you play 26 minutes+ every night and you match up against the best scoring lines like Chara and Bouwmeester do ... if the team sucks, your +/- numbers are gonna suffer. Campbell never played more than 22 minutes a night before last season and never did it against top scoring lines. Jovanovski is another example ... $6.5 million a year on a deal signed 2 years ago, so that was high then ... never had more than 48 points in a season before last year ... these are the guys to whom Bouwmeester is comparable, not Campbell. Look at Bouwmeester's career so far, not just his numbers, but also the durability, the ice time on a top pair, against other top lines, killing penalties, all the stuff Campbell never did before last season and in some cases still does not do ... and doing it at his age ... he compares nicely to Chara and Jovanovski ... he's a very good player and still can expect to get better at that age ... maybe the market has gotten crazy, but from a pure hockey standpoint, I don't think he is overrated. OverPAID, yeah he will be, but not overRATED ... he's on pace to be everything a top 5 pick should be. Are you sitting down? Because it's probably going to shock you that I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. Using Campbell as a comparable just doesn't work, IMO. He's not as offensive as Campbell, so his scoring numbers will be down (especially when you consider the system and the talent around the two) and defensively I think he is a lot better, but there isn't a good stat to quantify that (plus/minus is very insufficient, IMO.) I think comparing Bouwmeester to Chara and Jovanovski is a much better comparison. Plus, he's only 24/25 years old. He can keep getting better - and to draw the Soupy comparison for a second - Soupy didn't really stick in the NHL until he was what -- 26, 27? If I had to choose one blueliner between Campbell and Bouwmeester to pay a $6M contract/per to, it would be Bouwmeester every time, without hesitation.
Taro T Posted July 29, 2008 Report Posted July 29, 2008 Are you sitting down? Because it's probably going to shock you that I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. Using Campbell as a comparable just doesn't work, IMO. He's not as offensive as Campbell, so his scoring numbers will be down (especially when you consider the system and the talent around the two) and defensively I think he is a lot better, but there isn't a good stat to quantify that (plus/minus is very insufficient, IMO.) I think comparing Bouwmeester to Chara and Jovanovski is a much better comparison. Plus, he's only 24/25 years old. He can keep getting better - and to draw the Soupy comparison for a second - Soupy didn't really stick in the NHL until he was what -- 26, 27? If I had to choose one blueliner between Campbell and Bouwmeester to pay a $6M contract/per to, it would be Bouwmeester every time, without hesitation. A reasonably proxy for how good a D-man is defensively would be his pk time. While Soupy's pk toi/g has increased in the post lockout years from a whopping 6 seconds per game up to 2:36/game (edging Spach by those same 6 seconds for 3rd on the team last year). Bouwmeester has been Florida's #1 pk each year averaging over 4 minutes every year (which is what the Sabres top pk'ers averaged). Watching him play, there is no comparison between him and Campbell, and I would take Jay any day of the week.
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