2 Things I know after listening to Darcy

[shrader]

Without listening to the comments, I can say that the comment about not knowing the market has generally been about the UFA market. They didn't expect it to go where it did, so the team was unable to go after players from other teams that they may have been interested in. That comment has very little to do with players inside the organization.

[tom webster]

Rest assured DR knows EXACTLY how the market is set and what it is at any given time for any given position. You've been a fan long enough to recognize 'FO speak' by someone in that FO that doesn't control the purse strings. If anyone's seemed lost and unable to anticipate the market it's been LQ and TG. With the exception of Drury, which even LQ admitted to having screwed up, the other FA departures of note (Briere and Campbell) could be considered shrewed, albeit unpopular, business decisions based upon other value factors that the FO takes into consideration. We may not like them but it doesn't mean they were wrong decisions in the long term. Time will tell.

 

GO SABRES!!!

 

Only problem with that logic is that the team ended up offering the players deals that the players originally offered the team. The FO decided they wanted Drury over Briere but only after miscalculating the market. They would have gladly taken Briere and Drury for a combined $10.3 million per.

As for Campbell, they ended offering a 3 year deal just shy of $6 million per and a 6 year deal worth just under $5 million per so obviously they wanted to keep him, they were just too slow to the table once again.

[shrader]

As for Campbell, they ended offering a 3 year deal just shy of $6 million per and a 6 year deal worth just under $5 million per so obviously they wanted to keep him, they were just too slow to the table once again.

 

I don't know about that one. From day 1 of the season I doubt Campbell would have accepted that.

[tom webster]

I don't know about that one. From day 1 of the season I doubt Campbell would have accepted that.

 

In my mind, he definitely would have taken the six year deal. The three year deal, I am not so sure.

[shrader]

In my mind, he definitely would have taken the six year deal. The three year deal, I am not so sure.

 

Ahh, I must have skimmed over your post too quickly. I didn't see the 6 year deal comment. Still, I don't think he would have taken either. But then again, I'm one of those people that is convinced that he had his mind set on cashing out from day one.

[FogBat]

Ahh, I must have skimmed over your post too quickly. I didn't see the 6 year deal comment. Still, I don't think he would have taken either. But then again, I'm one of those people that is convinced that he had his mind set on cashing out from day one.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[K-9]

Only problem with that logic is that the team ended up offering the players deals that the players originally offered the team. The FO decided they wanted Drury over Briere but only after miscalculating the market. They would have gladly taken Briere and Drury for a combined $10.3 million per.

As for Campbell, they ended offering a 3 year deal just shy of $6 million per and a 6 year deal worth just under $5 million per so obviously they wanted to keep him, they were just too slow to the table once again.

 

Sure they would have. Problem with your logic is that neither of them would have agreed at that point. They screwed up with Drury as they admitted. I don't think they EVER thought Briere was worth it to THEM even at the original deal Briere offered. Same with Campbell. Are you saying that neither Campbell, Briere, or ESPECIALLY their agents didn't have at least an INKLING that their clients were gonna hit the NHL FA lottery? It's naive to think they didn't. The deals they subsequently signed are proof of that. That's why I never put too much stock in the good old '5 for 25' reports put forth by both players' camps.

 

Like I said, we may not have liked the unpopular FO decisions but they made a business decision based on many variables and, other than Drury, the other two players didn't fit into the plan.

 

GO SABRES!!!

[apuszczalowski]

Ahh, I must have skimmed over your post too quickly. I didn't see the 6 year deal comment. Still, I don't think he would have taken either. But then again, I'm one of those people that is convinced that he had his mind set on cashing out from day one.

I never heard about the 6 year deal, but I remember him saying that the financial terms (per year figure) of the 3 year deal was not the issue, he just wanted a long term deal with more then just 3 years, but Buffalo was offering a 3 year deal.

 

I have a feeling that he would have accepted a deal like what they gave Miller if it meant he was staying in Buffalo.

 

Now this is just my opinion, and I am feeling this way after a couple comments made by the FO this offseason, but I have a feeling that the FO only wants to commit to most players until they feel they have a potential replacement for them in the minors. The comments I remember were about not wanting to tie up salary and roster spots because they have players in the AHL who may be ready in a few seasons to come up and they wanted to make sure there will be potential spots for them.

[tom webster]

Sure they would have. Problem with your logic is that neither of them would have agreed at that point. They screwed up with Drury as they admitted. I don't think they EVER thought Briere was worth it to THEM even at the original deal Briere offered. Same with Campbell. Are you saying that neither Campbell, Briere, or ESPECIALLY their agents didn't have at least an INKLING that their clients were gonna hit the NHL FA lottery? It's naive to think they didn't. The deals they subsequently signed are proof of that. That's why I never put too much stock in the good old '5 for 25' reports put forth by both players' camps.

 

Like I said, we may not have liked the unpopular FO decisions but they made a business decision based on many variables and, other than Drury, the other two players didn't fit into the plan.

 

GO SABRES!!!

 

Don't let the facts get in the way of your argument. If neither player fit into their plans, then why did they make them an offer at all? In your little world, the ingenious FO didn't want either player. Why would they then have offered Briere the $25 million over 5 years and later make the 6 year offer to Campbell?

[SabresFan526]

I never heard about the 6 year deal, but I remember him saying that the financial terms (per year figure) of the 3 year deal was not the issue, he just wanted a long term deal with more then just 3 years, but Buffalo was offering a 3 year deal.

 

I have a feeling that he would have accepted a deal like what they gave Miller if it meant he was staying in Buffalo.

 

Now this is just my opinion, and I am feeling this way after a couple comments made by the FO this offseason, but I have a feeling that the FO only wants to commit to most players until they feel they have a potential replacement for them in the minors. The comments I remember were about not wanting to tie up salary and roster spots because they have players in the AHL who may be ready in a few seasons to come up and they wanted to make sure there will be potential spots for them.

I think by and large, I would agree with your stance and something I had thought about as well, however, signing Miller to a 5 year extension would contradict that theory since Enroth is with the Buffalo organization and signed to a (I believe) 2 year entry level deal. Meaning, within about 3-4 years, Enroth could conceivably be ready to compete with Miller for the starting spot, so giving Miller a 5 year extension after this upcoming year, essentially a 6 year deal including this upcoming season, would not make sense if that philosophy were true. If that philosophy were true, the Sabres would not have wanted to keep Miller beyond 3 years as an extension to his current deal. So, the signing of Miller, to me, goes against what we have heard or surmised as this FO's strategy with regard to players hitting their UFA years.

 

Personally, I think the ultimate reason Campbell was not re-signed is because over a 3-5 year span they had targeted Miller, Gaustad and Pominville as keepers and did not want to commit the money that Miller and Pominville were going to get to Campbell when they believe Sekera could be his replacement. Hence they were willing to give him the money he wanted over three years meaning that he would get paid 08-09, 09-10, and 10-11. Because Connolly, Kotalik, Spacek, and Max come off the books for 09-10 the cap hit for Campbell would only be a problem during the 08-09 season with the Sabres up against their self-imposed cap (but with some relief on Miller and Pominville's contracts as they are old contracts for this season), then have to face real problems in 09-10 when they have to pay Miller and Pominville. Then once 11-12 happens, you have the unknown of a potential new CBA as well as contracts to Stafford and other younger guys whose entry level deals are expiring and hence not being able to pay Campbell beyond the next three seasons. Honestly, it's only my speculation and I have no idea what the front office is thinking, but I feel like Darcy does have a plan in place and the only thing this front office really messed up was not re-signing Drury as I don't think they had any intention or re-signing Briere and were only willing to re-sign Campbell if it was under their terms and not his as they felt Sekera was a good enough backup plan for the club long term. If that is how the front office was thinking, then I can live with that because in my mind Campbell was not worth the three year $5.75 million per that the Sabres offered him because of his defensive zone deficiencies and is nowhere near worth what he got from the Blackhawks. I do think the six year sub $5 million deal was the right deal for what I believe Campbell's value is given his style of play and deficiencies and would have been cap friendly and flexible enough for the Sabres, but Campbell had no interest in signing for anything less than $5.5 million/season. I'm beginning to feel more and more that the only mistake the Sabres made in terms of miscalculation was with regard to Drury, but not anyone else. Whether their decisions on Campbell and Briere were right or wrong I think is completely open for debate, but I'm not sure they feel they have made any mistakes beyond Drury, which I guess I can live with since they have accepted blame for it to a certain extent given LQ's interview on Friday.

[K-9]

Don't let the facts get in the way of your argument. If neither player fit into their plans, then why did they make them an offer at all? In your little world, the ingenious FO didn't want either player. Why would they then have offered Briere the $25 million over 5 years and later make the 6 year offer to Campbell?

 

Perhaps I misspoke by saying the Sabres didn't want them at all. I think they did but certainly not at the offers purportedly made by the players (the ol 25/5).

 

When they finally made those offers I think it was strictly a PR move. When it was obvious they weren't going to take the offers because they were soon to hit the lottery. So they save some face with a (VERY lowball by comparison) offer. Why wouldn't Briere take the 25 over 5 or Campbell take the 6 year deal then? They knew, and the Sabres knew (althought DR is too stupid to know, right?) what the market would bare for both players. As did their agents. And I could be completely wrong as well. Nobody knows what went on behind closed doors but I find it hard to believe that neither player or their agents DIDN'T have a strong indication of what they would get and that rendered the Sabres' offers meaningless.

 

I'm not accusing the FO of being ingenious. Far from it. The original argument was that DR doesn't know how the market is set. I think he does. I think LQ and TG are the FO fu*ckups. And they can certainly be accused of dragging their feet when the opportunity to re-sign some players was there. As they admitted with the Drury situation. Funny how no such remorse is uttered regarding Briere/Campbell, BTW.

 

Why no credit for the foresight with Roy's deal? Or even Hecht's? Or Goose or Miller? Not from you specifically but from others who constanly bash DR for being a moron who has no clue how the player market moves? IMO those players have more VALUE to the FO at those deals than either of the departed superstars' at theirs. It's certainly easy to see it from their perspective. At least to anyone not too pissed off by unpopular player decisions. And again, I'm not singling you out here.

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Bmwolf21]

I'm not accusing the FO of being ingenious. Far from it. The original argument was that DR doesn't know how the market is set. I think he does. I think LQ and TG are the FO fu*ckups. And they can certainly be accused of dragging their feet when the opportunity to re-sign some players was there. As they admitted with the Drury situation. Funny how no such remorse is uttered regarding Briere/Campbell, BTW.

So to clarify -- you believe that when Darcy comes into a press conference and says things like "we had no idea the market was going to take off the way it did" he really means "I knew what was going to happen months ago but couldn't convince TG and LQ that this was going to happen and that we needed to lock up our guys before they got a whiff of the money available in FA."

[apuszczalowski]

I think by and large, I would agree with your stance and something I had thought about as well, however, signing Miller to a 5 year extension would contradict that theory since Enroth is with the Buffalo organization and signed to a (I believe) 2 year entry level deal. Meaning, within about 3-4 years, Enroth could conceivably be ready to compete with Miller for the starting spot, so giving Miller a 5 year extension after this upcoming year, essentially a 6 year deal including this upcoming season, would not make sense if that philosophy were true. If that philosophy were true, the Sabres would not have wanted to keep Miller beyond 3 years as an extension to his current deal. So, the signing of Miller, to me, goes against what we have heard or surmised as this FO's strategy with regard to players hitting their UFA years.

With Millers deal though, Enroth is just entering the AHL this year, and is probably 2-3 years until they feel he is ready to come up to the NHL full time, where they most likely expect him to be a back up for now until he can beat out Miller. There are 2 goalie positions, so tying up one of the 2 just in case something happens to Enroth and he doesn't develop like predicted, they still have Miller, and an open backup spot that will be vacant in 2 seasons again, just in time for Enroth to have had a couple years of seasoning in the AHL.

 

Also too, I really don't think Miller would have taken anything less 9year wise) then what was offered, and if they only offered him something like 3 years, he would have been gone at the end of the season, So the Sabres hands were forced into a longer term deal, or looking for a NHL ready goalie for next season. If Enroth had already had AHL and a little NHL experience, I believe they may have taken the gamble and hyped him up to take over next season and moved on from Miller. But the timing right now meant they needed a few more years of development in NA for Enroth, and they didn't have much choice besides signing Miller long term.

[The Brain]

if you were the owner I suspect you would not need your GM to tell you that it's the 21st century and in the NHL he can't just have everyone on 1-year contracts so they are motivated, either.

If the long-rumored handshake deal with Drury is true, that would be another case where the GM got a very reasonable deal done and basically got vetoed from above. Darcy is not perfect by any stretch but I don't think you can single him out without taking the entire front office to task as a whole ... TG and LQ played a large role in the screwups.

Hey you'll get no argument out of me regarding Quinn.

I was saying he would ruin this team and lose Breire and Drury BEFORE they reached the 05/06 ECF , not the 06/07 ECF, way ahead of ANYONE in the media.

 

I knew it would happen as soon as I heard gucci Larry in an interview where for the 1st time he went over what I'm sure he thought was a master plan about not negotiating extensions because they didnt want to play favorites.

And if the player wanted to stay in buffalo then there was plenty of time in the off season after their deal ran out to negotiate a new contract.

I almost spilled my beer, when he said players can choose between money and playing for a winner . LOL

 

He sounded convinced that HE was the winning formula not the players on the ice.

Well Drury and Breire made the playoffs where was Larry ?

[shrader]

Way back in 1983 I said that the NHL's crease rule would lead to trouble in the future. Did anyone listen? Sure, I never actually said it out loud, but , I said it.

[fiftyone]

Hey you'll get no argument out of me regarding Quinn.

I was saying he would ruin this team and lose Breire and Drury BEFORE they reached the 05/06 ECF , not the 06/07 ECF, way ahead of ANYONE in the media.

 

I knew it would happen as soon as I heard gucci Larry in an interview where for the 1st time he went over what I'm sure he thought was a master plan about not negotiating extensions because they didnt want to play favorites.

And if the player wanted to stay in buffalo then there was plenty of time in the off season after their deal ran out to negotiate a new contract.

I almost spilled my beer, when he said players can choose between money and playing for a winner . LOL

 

He sounded convinced that HE was the winning formula not the players on the ice.

Well Drury and Breire made the playoffs where was Larry ?

 

 

Hey Whale, how come you haven't used this name over at LGS yet, or have you?

 

I'm not sure if you guys here at SabreSpace know this fella or not, but if you don't, you'll sure get to know him quickly, unfortunately.

[K-9]

So to clarify -- you believe that when Darcy comes into a press conference and says things like "we had no idea the market was going to take off the way it did" he really means "I knew what was going to happen months ago but couldn't convince TG and LQ that this was going to happen and that we needed to lock up our guys before they got a whiff of the money available in FA."

 

No, that's not what I believe. I believe he has a firm understanding that other GMs and their signings establish the market for players. That's what the Brain said DR had no idea of. And that understanding does not conflict with his statement regarding how fast the market took off. Nobody knew what kind of ridiculous money some teams were gonna throw at players. Those GMs hadn't established the market yet. Once they did, Darcy and the rest of the GMs knew what the market was. Hence, he knew that other GMs and their signings established the market. Hope that clarifies things.

 

As to your point about him trying to convince TG and LQ of certain things BEFORE the market was established. I don't think that's too farfetched when you think about it. Or did LQ come up with realizing and then admitting they made a mistake with Drury all by himself?

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Bmwolf21]

No, that's not what I believe. I believe he has a firm understanding that other GMs and their signings establish the market for players. That's what the Brain said DR had no idea of. And that understanding does not conflict with his statement regarding how fast the market took off. Nobody knew what kind of ridiculous money some teams were gonna throw at players. Those GMs hadn't established the market yet. Once they did, Darcy and the rest of the GMs knew what the market was. Hence, he knew that other GMs and their signings established the market. Hope that clarifies things.

 

As to your point about him trying to convince TG and LQ of certain things BEFORE the market was established. I don't think that's too farfetched when you think about it. Or did LQ come up with realizing and then admitting they made a mistake with Drury all by himself?

 

GO SABRES!!!

I guess we're dancing around the same thing from different angles, then. I didn't take Brain's initial post as "he doesn't understand the concept of how the market is set" but more like "DR always acts surprised when the market spirals well past what the Sabres thought it would be and/or were prepared to pay" -- as in he underestimates what the market will pay for certain players.

 

I don't want to get back into rehashing the whole Drury/Briere debacle, but I do believe someone higher than DR screwed up there.

[tom webster]

I hate that I was drawn back into this conversation. I just want to move on. I believe the truth lies somewhere amongst all of our beliefs and now is the time to look forward.

I think that while this team still has some holes to fill, on the whole there is enough talent here to start the path back up to the top with the hope and belief that management will add the pieces necessary once they assess where the young talent has developed to and where the ceiling may lie.

[X. Benedict]

Hey you'll get no argument out of me regarding Quinn.

I was saying he would ruin this team and lose Breire and Drury BEFORE they reached the 05/06 ECF , not the 06/07 ECF, way ahead of ANYONE in the media.

 

I knew it would happen as soon as I heard gucci Larry in an interview where for the 1st time he went over what I'm sure he thought was a master plan about not negotiating extensions because they didnt want to play favorites.

And if the player wanted to stay in buffalo then there was plenty of time in the off season after their deal ran out to negotiate a new contract.

I almost spilled my beer, when he said players can choose between money and playing for a winner . LOL

 

He sounded convinced that HE was the winning formula not the players on the ice.

Well Drury and Breire made the playoffs where was Larry ?

 

Hey, where's my link?

[FogBat]

Hey Whale, how come you haven't used this name over at LGS yet, or have you?

 

I'm not sure if you guys here at SabreSpace know this fella or not, but if you don't, you'll sure get to know him quickly, unfortunately.

Sounds like we have a proverbial fool on our hands: speaking all of his mind, and no one can render any reason to him.

 

He still hasn't responded to my "word to the wise" back on the "Miller getting signed" thread.

 

I'll put up with gruff from other well-established members, because they might actually know some thing that I don't from time to time. Some noob coming in here and screaming with FULL CAPS and condescending everyone like he's the ultimate expert in hockey and none of us have a clue what we're talking about was not a smart move at all.

 

BTW, what is LGS?

[R_Dudley]

Way back in 1983 I said that the NHL's crease rule would lead to trouble in the future. Did anyone listen? Sure, I never actually said it out loud, but , I said it.

 

:w00t: LOL

 

My hero... ;)

[R_Dudley]

With Millers deal though, Enroth is just entering the AHL this year, and is probably 2-3 years until they feel he is ready to come up to the NHL full time, where they most likely expect him to be a back up for now until he can beat out Miller. There are 2 goalie positions, so tying up one of the 2 just in case something happens to Enroth and he doesn't develop like predicted, they still have Miller, and an open backup spot that will be vacant in 2 seasons again, just in time for Enroth to have had a couple years of seasoning in the AHL.

 

Also too, I really don't think Miller would have taken anything less 9year wise) then what was offered, and if they only offered him something like 3 years, he would have been gone at the end of the season, So the Sabres hands were forced into a longer term deal, or looking for a NHL ready goalie for next season. If Enroth had already had AHL and a little NHL experience, I believe they may have taken the gamble and hyped him up to take over next season and moved on from Miller. But the timing right now meant they needed a few more years of development in NA for Enroth, and they didn't have much choice besides signing Miller long term.

 

I'm pretty much leaning towards this smoking gun theory as well.

[fiftyone]

Sounds like we have a proverbial fool on our hands: speaking all of his mind, and no one can render any reason to him.

 

He still hasn't responded to my "word to the wise" back on the "Miller getting signed" thread.

 

I'll put up with gruff from other well-established members, because they might actually know some thing that I don't from time to time. Some noob coming in here and screaming with FULL CAPS and condescending everyone like he's the ultimate expert in hockey and none of us have a clue what we're talking about was not a smart move at all.

 

BTW, what is LGS?

 

 

LGS is Letsgosabres.com, a fairly new sabres website with a forum just like here. I've been a member there for quite awhile, talking sabres hockey with some of the same people as here. This fellow you were talking to is known as "TheWhale" and he has been doing the same thing over there. He's been banned at least 15 times, but keeps coming back for more. Now it seems he's moving to a new site to "spread his knowledge."

 

Anyway, go check it out, it's a cool place.

 

pavilion.letsgosabres.com

[FogBat]

LGS is Letsgosabres.com, a fairly new sabres website with a forum just like here. I've been a member there for quite awhile, talking sabres hockey with some of the same people as here. This fellow you were talking to is known as "TheWhale" and he has been doing the same thing over there. He's been banned at least 15 times, but keeps coming back for more. Now it seems he's moving to a new site to "spread his knowledge."

 

Anyway, go check it out, it's a cool place.

 

pavilion.letsgosabres.com

One would think that the mods over at LGS would put a permanent block on his ISP addy. Who knows? They might have but he keeps finding ways to circumvent the process. As Apus told me in a different thread, he's a troll. After encountering him today, I can think of some members of SabreSpace whom I have a newfound respect for in spite of various disagreements (you know who you are). I just can't wait to see him trip the DeLuca-Inkman wire on a Claymore mine and see the end result.

 

I'll check out LGS when I have a bit more time. Thanx for the invite.