Complaint Thursdays

[Gramps]

Do you have any concept for how many ppl have some type of mental illness and go untreated? Also define mental illness. My dad has depression, is that a mental illness? What about anxiety? Bi polar? Mental illness is this cute little phrase being used to deflect.

Why? Until you prove that it's just a theory and regurgitated talking point. We don't study gun violence so we have no ###### clue why it occurs.

 

I'm familiar with the DSM-5 ... If you can't define mental illness, how can you possibly stop a kid like him from buying guns ?  Before you say ban semi-auto assault weapons, I'm with you on that. However, people who want to hurt others will always find a way. 

[Stoner]

Here's what's a little scary. Only something like 30-40% of Americans own a gun. You know damn well the NRA and gun manufacturers view that figure as depressingly and unacceptably low, but also an incredible untapped market. What lengths or depths do you think they'd go to to get us closer to full, uh, deployment? To increase the fear and paranoia that feeds the wolf? I honestly think these bastards and the elected reps they have in their pockets cheer the mayhem. Yay, free market.

[darksabre]

Context is kind of important here, no? Normal societies and normal people doing awful things under certain pressures, things that can be justified and/or explained. Versus... some expelled kid shooting up his former school. (Actually, I think I'd want to throw out the war atrocity in your example, or maybe include it with the school shooter.)

 

"certain pressures"? 

 

People can justify anything. I can justify things I do in war. I can justify taking a prisoner on a "rough ride". I bet a school shooter could justify his actions too. Just because you can justify something doesn't make it normal, acceptable, or any less sick. 

[WildCard]

I'm familiar with the DSM-5 ... If you can't define mental illness, how can you possibly stop a kid like him from buying guns ?  Before you say ban semi-auto assault weapons, I'm with you on that. However, people who want to hurt others will always find a way. 

Agreed. It's the same thing with the war on drugs. You think gang members are getting their guns at the local shop? 

[darksabre]

Here's what's a little scary. Only something like 30-40% of America.ns own a gun. You know damn well the NRA and gun manufacturers view that figure as depressingly and unacceptably low, but also an incredible untapped market. What lengths or depths do you think they'd go to to get us closer to full, uh, deployment? To increase the fear and paranoia that feeds the wolf? I honestly think these bastards and the elected reps they have in their pockets cheer the mayhem. Yay, free market.

Also worth noting that a strong majority of gun owners favor more action from congress on gun violence. It's a minority of gun owners and a large number of non-owners who don't favor more government intervention. The will of the people is not a motivating factor. 

[darksabre]

I'm familiar with the DSM-5 ... If you can't define mental illness, how can you possibly stop a kid like him from buying guns ?  Before you say ban semi-auto assault weapons, I'm with you on that. However, people who want to hurt others will always find a way. 

No they won't. Ease of execution is a large driver of crime. Guns are the easiest way to hurt the most amount of people. You reduce the number of guns in the equation and you will inherently see a certain number of people simply walk away from whatever harm they intended to inflict.

 

Those that remain will move to other easy but less deadly weapons like knives, cars and trucks, blunt objects, and so on. Those items can hurt and kill, but not at the same volume and ease. This has been the trend in countries where gun bans are much more strict. There will be a shift, but not everyone who was going to use a gun is going to make that shift, so you see a little more drop off. 

 

Those that remain, the most dedicated, will have to do things like make bombs, steal passenger planes, etc. These are more complex ways of killing people, require a lot of planning, and a lot of circumstances to be just right. These are the least likely ways people kill. 

 

Reducing the amount of guns in the equation inherently reduces the ease with which people commit violent crimes, the frequency with which people commit violent crimes, and the effects of those crimes. 

[Samson's Flow]

No they won't. Ease of execution is a large driver of crime. Guns are the easiest way to hurt the most amount of people. You reduce the number of guns in the equation and you will inherently see a certain number of people simply walk away from whatever harm they intended to inflict.

 

Those that remain will move to other easy but less deadly weapons like knives, cars and trucks, blunt objects, and so on. Those items can hurt and kill, but not at the same volume and ease. This has been the trend in countries where gun bans are much more strict. There will be a shift, but not everyone who was going to use a gun is going to make that shift, so you see a little more drop off. 

 

Those that remain, the most dedicated, will have to do things like make bombs, steal passenger planes, etc. These are more complex ways of killing people, require a lot of planning, and a lot of circumstances to be just right. These are the least likely ways people kill. 

 

Reducing the amount of guns in the equation inherently reduces the ease with which people commit violent crimes, the frequency with which people commit violent crimes, and the effects of those crimes. 

To take that to a different logical extreme, I have seen reports around suicide and suicide prevention and for individuals considering suicide or have called a helpline, they are far more likely to actually kill themselves if they have access to a gun compared to alternate methods (pills, drowning, etc.). I wouldn't say their convictions are any stronger than the other people without guns, but the efficiency of a firearm makes it far more likely they are ultimately "successful".

 

I'd use the same logic to the school shooting/mass killing examples. Having access to a firearm escalates the severity and efficiency of the tragedy.

[darksabre]

To take that to a different logical extreme, I have seen reports around suicide and suicide prevention and for individuals considering suicide or have called a helpline, they are far more likely to actually kill themselves if they have access to a gun compared to alternate methods (pills, drowning, etc.). I wouldn't say their convictions are any stronger than the other people without guns, but the efficiency of a firearm makes it far more likely they are ultimately "successful".

 

I'd use the same logic to the school shooting/mass killing examples. Having access to a firearm escalates the severity and efficiency of the tragedy.

This is absolutely true.

[Gramps]

No they won't. Ease of execution is a large driver of crime. Guns are the easiest way to hurt the most amount of people. You reduce the number of guns in the equation and you will inherently see a certain number of people simply walk away from whatever harm they intended to inflict.

 

Those that remain will move to other easy but less deadly weapons like knives, cars and trucks, blunt objects, and so on. Those items can hurt and kill, but not at the same volume and ease. This has been the trend in countries where gun bans are much more strict. There will be a shift, but not everyone who was going to use a gun is going to make that shift, so you see a little more drop off. 

 

Those that remain, the most dedicated, will have to do things like make bombs, steal passenger planes, etc. These are more complex ways of killing people, require a lot of planning, and a lot of circumstances to be just right. These are the least likely ways people kill. 

 

Reducing the amount of guns in the equation inherently reduces the ease with which people commit violent crimes, the frequency with which people commit violent crimes, and the effects of those crimes. 

 

As I've already said, I support a ban on semi-automatic assault weapons. However I will never support a full gun ban as I do not believe it's right to take guns away from hunters, target shooters, and self-defense users. I don't what the answer is but in this case it appears the FBI did not do their job. When I was a kid, school shootings were non-existent but guns were available. Perhaps the underlying causes need to be addressed rather than a total ban on guns. 

 

Would you abolish alcohol because of a few fatal DUI related crashes ? Do you abolish pain meds because some overuse them and become addicted leading to more serious substance abuse ? 

[darksabre]

As I've already said, I support a ban on semi-automatic assault weapons. However I will never support a full gun ban as I do not believe it's right to take guns away from hunters, target shooters, and self-defense users. I don't what the answer is but in this case it appears the FBI did not do their job. When I was a kid, school shootings were non-existent but guns were available. Perhaps the underlying causes need to be addressed rather than a total ban on guns.

 

Would you abolish alcohol because of a few fatal DUI related crashes ? Do you abolish pain meds because some overuse them and become addicted leading to more serious substance abuse ?

I'm not calling for a gun ban. I'm just refuting the statement you made.

[Gramps]

I'm not calling for a gun ban. I'm just refuting the statement you made.

 

See the Boston Marathon bombers, Tim McVeigh, Unabomber, and others for examples of how people can still hurt people without assault rifles. This kid was also exploring how to make bombs. 

 

Do firearms make it easier ? Sure ... no argument there. 

Edited February 15, 2018 by Gramps

[darksabre]

See the Boston Marathon bombers, Tim McVeigh, Unabomber, and others for examples of how people can still hurt people without assault rifles. This kid was also exploring how to make bombs. 

 

Do firearms make it easier ? Sure ... no argument there. 

Easier, AND more likely, AND more catastrophic. 

 

Reduce the ease with which people can acquire firearms and you reduce the rate not only of gun crimes, but other violent crimes as well. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. And it doesn't just apply to gun crimes. You can do this with a lot of different variables. Reduce the ability of someone to steal a car and you reduce the ability of them to commit a crime with that car. Reduce the ability of someone to evade surveillance at a target, you reduce the availability of targets to victimize. Reduction is the key word. Reduction. 

 

It's time for us to start pushing some buttons on gun violence. The guns themselves should not be the entire focus, but they are absolutely a part of it. 

[Gramps]

Easier, AND more likely, AND more catastrophic. 

 

Reduce the ease with which people can acquire firearms and you reduce the rate not only of gun crimes, but other violent crimes as well. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. And it doesn't just apply to gun crimes. You can do this with a lot of different variables. Reduce the ability of someone to steal a car and you reduce the ability of them to commit a crime with that car. Reduce the ability of someone to evade surveillance at a target, you reduce the availability of targets to victimize. Reduction is the key word. Reduction. 

 

It's time for us to start pushing some buttons on gun violence. The guns themselves should not be the entire focus, but they are absolutely a part of it. 

 

And there's the rub - how do you reduce the ease with which people can acquire firearms ? There are plenty of gun transactions that are never recorded. 

[hsif]

I've been a gun owner for 40 years, but have never belonged to the NRA. Some of my shooting friends have been critical of that, saying that they are the only organization who will stand up for my gun rights, and to some extent I deserve their criticism. I just fail to see the constructive need for some of the arms that are defended by some gun activists. AR style weapons with detachable mags are not necessary in any environment other than a human killing environment. You don't need DM's on the target range, or in the field hunting, or even in home defense(some may argue this). But they are one of the key features that school or theater or mall shooters rely on to in crease their killing power. I do enjoy guns, shooting them, and hunting with them, but will probably never own an AR style weapon. I wouldn't mind automatic rifles in the hands of the public if you would make them all fixed mag, top loading, or legislate to that end. 

 

It is interesting, and sad, that with the new administration gun purchases are down. But it wouldn't surprise me if this terrible event boosts sagging AR sales.

[Sabel79]

The NRA is nothing more than a trade association meant to represent the interests of gun manufacturers in Washington and various statehouses. Boosting sales is literally all they are about. Yes, incidents like this boost sales when the specter of impending gun control rears its head. Almost like they think dead children are an acceptable advertisement for their products.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I don't think that one can legislate an end to gun violence.  

 

Attitudes need to change.  And not only for gun advocates.

[darksabre]

And there's the rub - how do you reduce the ease with which people can acquire firearms ? There are plenty of gun transactions that are never recorded.

Guns don't come from the aether. They're made and sold and stolen and trafficked right here in the USA. Make them harder to buy and you reduce the pool of guns being bought for crime and trafficked across state lines. Make owners take more responsibility for their weapons so they can't be stolen during burglaries or robberies. Don't let pawn shops sell guns period.

 

Illegal guns, like drugs, come from somewhere. You'll never eliminate the supply, but you can reduce it. Give law enforcement a fight they can actually win.

[Gramps]

Guns don't come from the aether. They're made and sold and stolen and trafficked right here in the USA. Make them harder to buy and you reduce the pool of guns being bought for crime and trafficked across state lines. Make owners take more responsibility for their weapons so they can't be stolen during burglaries or robberies. Don't let pawn shops sell guns period.

 

Illegal guns, like drugs, come from somewhere. You'll never eliminate the supply, but you can reduce it. Give law enforcement a fight they can actually win.

 

All good ideas but none of them will ever happen. I'd be happy with a full ban on AR weapons and a more intense background check. 

 

But I'm also a proponent of making older folks retake their driving tests after they reach a certain age due to decreased reaction time. That probably ain't happening either.

[hsif]

 

 

Guns don't come from the aether. They're made and sold and stolen and trafficked right here in the USA. Make them harder to buy and you reduce the pool of guns being bought for crime and trafficked across state lines. Make owners take more responsibility for their weapons so they can't be stolen during burglaries or robberies. Don't let pawn shops sell guns period.

 

Illegal guns, like drugs, come from somewhere. You'll never eliminate the supply, but you can reduce it. Give law enforcement a fight they can actually win.

This gun was legally purchased. Mass shootings, and criminals with stolen guns are different discussions. And NYS currently has gun storage laws. I'm not sure how you "make owners" take more responsibility than that.

[darksabre]

All good ideas but none of them will ever happen. I'd be happy with a full ban on AR weapons and a more intense background check. 

 

But I'm also a proponent of making older folks retake their driving tests after they reach a certain age due to decreased reaction time. That probably ain't happening either.

This is exactly my point. The only thing in our way is people with bad attitudes who are okay with kids dying. 

 

 

 

This gun was legally purchased. Mass shootings, and criminals with stolen guns are different discussions. And NYS currently has gun storage laws. I'm not sure how you "make owners" take more responsibility than that.

 

 

This kid's guns were legally purchased, but he should never have been able to purchase those guns at 18 years old. We don't even let people rent cars until they're 25. Children are dead because a bunch of people who think "tyranny" is a problem are willing to foist the consequences of their fears upon children. 

 

And the problem for NYS is all the states around us with bad gun laws. Many of the guns used in gun crimes in NY come from outside of the state. There's a fun map out there somewhere that shows where the guns come from in each state, and NYS is a victim of the complete lack of comprehensive national gun purchasing policies. There are too many holes. 

[MattPie]

 

 

This gun was legally purchased. Mass shootings, and criminals with stolen guns are different discussions. And NYS currently has gun storage laws. I'm not sure how you "make owners" take more responsibility than that.

 

 

Any crimes committed with a gun are applicable to the last known owner. If you "lose" a gun, you better report it immediately. If you sell a gun, you do it at a notary. You don't give someone a gun, ever. This gets some of the guns out of the illegal supply.

 

I'm leaning towards yearly inspections, too. Every year, you have to produce the weapon, just you do with a car.

[Winston]

I'm leaning towards yearly inspections, too. Every year, you have to produce the weapon, just you do with a car.

 

I've often pondered a similar registration process. But there are more guns in the US than there are cars. And guns aren't public-facing like cars are, so law enforcement would never find unrenewed/uninspected/unregistered/un-whatever guns like they do unregistered cars. It would be a monumental task. I don't think the infrastructure exists. 

[Gramps]

This is exactly my point. The only thing in our way is people with bad attitudes who are okay with kids dying. 

 

 

This kid's guns were legally purchased, but he should never have been able to purchase those guns at 18 years old. We don't even let people rent cars until they're 25. Children are dead because a bunch of people who think "tyranny" is a problem are willing to foist the consequences of their fears upon children. 

 

And the problem for NYS is all the states around us with bad gun laws. Many of the guns used in gun crimes in NY come from outside of the state. There's a fun map out there somewhere that shows where the guns come from in each state, and NYS is a victim of the complete lack of comprehensive national gun purchasing policies. There are too many holes. 

 

Wouldn't mattered ... the kid was a member of a militia group out of Tallahassee and could have gotten a weapon easily from them. So you're ok with an 18-year-old going into combat, but not being able to buy a weapon at home ? 

[MattPie]

I've often pondered a similar registration process. But there are more guns in the US than there are cars. And guns aren't public-facing like cars are, so law enforcement would never find unrenewed/uninspected/unregistered/un-whatever guns like they do unregistered cars. It would be a monumental task. I don't think the infrastructure exists. 

 

A journey of a 1000 miles starts with one step.

Wouldn't mattered ... the kid was a member of a militia group out of Tallahassee and could have gotten a weapon easily from them. So you're ok with an 18-year-old going into combat, but not being able to buy a weapon at home ? 

 

The solution is still the last owner of the gun is responsible for it. If some guy in the militia issues a gun to someone, they better be sure they're not a psychopath.

[North Buffalo]

I don’t know if irony is the correct label, but we are having an active shooter training session this afternoon at work. It was scheduled before yesterday’s tragedy.

Society has changed and we aren’t responding to it beyond organized sessions telling people where to hide.

Yeh I have one scheduled next week :( Almost like the gas mask training we had in the US Senate post anthrax... surreal.