[OT] Buffalo News Lead Story on Lackawanna Wind Farm

[Chief Enabler]

:wallbash:

 

You'd think energizing wind farm technology in a dilapitated rust belt would be a positive in Buffalo! Apparently not. Someone or some group always has a say in what's going on. It's unbelievable. Typically NYS politics again. How or why does this happen again and again? Who are these people?

 

Sorry bout the link...

[Bmwolf21]

LINK

 

Generally I'd agree with you, but in this case I don't see what the problem is. If the AG's office is investigating improprieties in how the lands were acquired, contracts bid, etc., then I'm fine with that. There's been way too many shady deals, backroom agreements and political crap going on in WNY for too long. I also don't see anywhere in the article where the government is going to shutdown these wind farms or tear down the windmills as a result. They'll probably get slapped with some sort of regulatory misconduct fines and move on.

 

If the story would have been about how a local enviro-group was blocking wind farms because it displaces some rare fish, then I would be equally pissed. But this doesn't seem like too much to get concerned with right now.

[Knightrider]

:wallbash:

 

You'd think energizing wind farm technology in a dilapitated rust belt would be a positive in Buffalo! Apparently not. Someone or some group always has a say in what's going on. It's unbelievable. Typically NYS politics again. How or why does this happen again and again? Who are these people?

 

Sorry bout the link...

 

Sounds more like Teddy Kennedy to me than NYS politics... With the amount of water that flows through the Buffalo area, I could care less about wind farms. The efficiency isn't there when compared to using water to generate electricity, and it certainly won't generate very much $...

[Chief Enabler]

LINK

 

Generally I'd agree with you, but in this case I don't see what the problem is. If the AG's office is investigating improprieties in how the lands were acquired, contracts bid, etc., then I'm fine with that. There's been way too many shady deals, backroom agreements and political crap going on in WNY for too long. I also don't see anywhere in the article where the government is going to shutdown these wind farms or tear down the windmills as a result. They'll probably get slapped with some sort of regulatory misconduct fines and move on.

 

If the story would have been about how a local enviro-group was blocking wind farms because it displaces some rare fish, then I would be equally pissed. But this doesn't seem like too much to get concerned with right now.

My favorite arguement against wind farms is that they will kill too many birds. :thumbsup: Oh yeah, and they are too noisy. :rolleyes: I am probably argueing the wrong point here, but everything ends up corrupt somehow. Maybe because its out of state companies initiating opportunities and the locals (govt) dont like it?

 

In response to Knighty, water is the bigger issue IMO also, Niagara Falls is or one of the biggest natural energy sources on the planet and the local utilities are through the roof. How's that work? :blink:

[Knightrider]

My favorite arguement against wind farms is that they will kill too many birds. :thumbsup: Oh yeah, and they are too noisy. :rolleyes: I am probably argueing the wrong point here, but everything ends up corrupt somehow. Maybe because its out of state companies initiating opportunities and the locals (govt) dont like it?

 

In response to Knighty, water is the bigger issue IMO also, Niagara Falls is or one of the biggest natural energy sources on the planet and the local utilities are through the roof. How's that work? :blink:

 

IIRC, only some communities (the village of Akron is one- I was out there last week and someone told me they heated their house with electric and it cost him ~$28 month in electric bills) in WNY reap the benefits of the generators on the Niagara. Most goes down-state, but it goes as far as Rhode Island.

[Buffalo Fan]

IIRC, only some communities (the village of Akron is one- I was out there last week and someone told me they heated their house with electric and it cost him ~$28 month in electric bills) in WNY reap the benefits of the generators on the Niagara. Most goes down-state, but it goes as far as Rhode Island.

 

 

I think you are right...IIRC there is a law about sharing natural utilities...OH and PA also reap the benefits from the power generated from Niagara.

[SwampD]

I'm kinda on the fence about these wind farms. A couple of turbines is cool, but my fear is they will cover the horizon. Out in Wyoming county, where we have a cabin, they have plans for 196 more to go up. I know that they all won't go up but even a third of that number would suck.

 

Buffalo's greatest resource is it's waterfront. It should be a destination for lots of people but instead has been an industial wasteland for decades(centuries?). The Lackawana turbines just continues the trend of keeping the waterfront from the people.

[Chief Enabler]

I'm kinda on the fence about these wind farms. A couple of turbines is cool, but my fear is they will cover the horizon. Out in Wyoming county, where we have a cabin, they have plans for 196 more to go up. I know that they all won't go up but even a third of that number would suck.

 

Buffalo's greatest resource is it's waterfront. It should be a destination for lots of people but instead has been an industial wasteland for decades(centuries?). The Lackawana turbines just continues the trend of keeping the waterfront from the people.

I have spent 5 winter seasons in Palm Springs, California area and it absolutely works. It is a concentration of windmills in a geographical windy area. I only noticed and appreciated the farms going through the I-10 pass to Los Angeles. There are 100's maybe 1000's in the Palm Springs area. Now, born in Buffalo and familiar with all, I understand the distain of an overpopluated windfarm demographic. And I agree with you. I think the windfarms in Lackawanna can be just a sign of change for the positive. I thought over the winter that the Buffalo news had a story on a company that built the windmill wings; built in Buffalo!?!

 

Sorry to get all fired up on the subject; but here on Nantucket, they are in the heat of the battle of constructing a windfarm on Nantucket Sound. (on the water!)

[Knightrider]

Sorry to get all fired up on the subject; but here on Nantucket, they are in the heat of the battle of constructing a windfarm on Nantucket Sound. (on the water!)

 

The fun part is that it is supposed to be visible from the Kennedy compound (whaler, are you sure about Nantucket?), and Teddy's fighting it tooth and nail.

 

Personally, I like the sight of a windmill. I don't think they are cost effective, but I like the idea of them.

[wonderbread]

Sorry to get all fired up on the subject; but here on Nantucket, they are in the heat of the battle of constructing a windfarm on Nantucket Sound. (on the water!)

 

 

There once was a man from Nantucket...

[SwampD]

I have spent 5 winter seasons in Palm Springs, California area and it absolutely works. It is a concentration of windmills in a geographical windy area. I only noticed and appreciated the farms going through the I-10 pass to Los Angeles. There are 100's maybe 1000's in the Palm Springs area. Now, born in Buffalo and familiar with all, I understand the distain of an overpopluated windfarm demographic. And I agree with you. I think the windfarms in Lackawanna can be just a sign of change for the positive. I thought over the winter that the Buffalo news had a story on a company that built the windmill wings; built in Buffalo!?!

 

Sorry to get all fired up on the subject; but here on Nantucket, they are in the heat of the battle of constructing a windfarm on Nantucket Sound. (on the water!)

I find it interesting that those wind farms are not actually in Palm Springs. They are outside of it, nestled between indian reservations. And like Wyoming county and the I390 corridor, there is not enough representation in these areas, where the people actually have to live with them, to fight them being built by the people who will benefit from them and don't live anywhere near them.

 

The fun part is that it is supposed to be visible from the Kennedy compound (whaler, are you sure about Nantucket?), and Teddy's fighting it tooth and nail.

 

Personally, I like the sight of a windmill. I don't think they are cost effective, but I like the idea of them.

I agree, a windmill is neat, when you drive by it and never see it again. Tell me how you feel when you've bought a house and land for the views only to find those views filled with hundreds of turbines.

 

Sorry, I guess I get a little fired up over this topic as well.

[Knightrider]

I find it interesting that those wind farms are not actually in Palm Springs. They are outside of it, nestled between indian reservations. And like Wyoming county and the I390 corridor, there is not enough representation in these areas, where the people actually have to live with them, to fight them being built by the people who will benefit from them and don't live anywhere near them.

 

 

I agree, a windmill is neat, when you drive by it and never see it again. Tell me how you feel when you've bought a house and land for the views only to find those views filled with hundreds of turbines.

 

Sorry, I guess I get a little fired up over this topic as well.

 

That be the way of the world, my friend. My parents had a WSR-90 NEXRAD tower go up about 500 feet outside their bedroom window of their brand new house in the early nineties. They took a bath on the real estate value since they'd moved to that house about 18 months before tower construction began, it was an upscale area, but "in the middle of the hills". But since it took 5 acres to build, not many were around to fight it.

[Chief Enabler]

The fun part is that it is supposed to be visible from the Kennedy compound (whaler, are you sure about Nantucket?), and Teddy's fighting it tooth and nail.

 

Personally, I like the sight of a windmill. I don't think they are cost effective, but I like the idea of them.

It looks like it would 5 or 6 miles from the mainland; not sure if they would be visible or not. There's yard signs and bumper stickers everywhere. My head-scratcher is they are to be in the middle of the Sound with little red lights atop or whatever; I am just wondering if some nutbag in a boat would hit on in the dark :oops:

 

On a hockey related note; we just had our celebrity game at the local rink again, Shanahan, Amonte, Marty Mcinnis, Andy Brickley and few other retired Bruins.

[Chief Enabler]

I find it interesting that those wind farms are not actually in Palm Springs. They are outside of it, nestled between indian reservations. And like Wyoming county and the I390 corridor, there is not enough representation in these areas, where the people actually have to live with them, to fight them being built by the people who will benefit from them and don't live anywhere near them.

I believe the Ague Caliente Tribe owns the entire Coachella Valley, all the land and their casinos. Silly and old money. The windmills are in Palm Springs and beyond literally right outside the town, like a mile or 2 out going toward I-10.

The political angle about Wyoming County and companies sounds similar as the Lackawanna story. If the local residents benefit, great!; If not; Bad :thumbdown:

[deluca67]

Though I like the idea of the windmills I would much rather see monies invested in ethanol refineries. The sooner this country converts and breaks from it's dependency on the Middle East the safer and better off we would all be. Not only would it bring about a cleaner more cost efficient form of fuel it would also be the resurection of the American farmer who could easily produce corn in great numbers.

[Chief Enabler]

Though I like the idea of the windmills I would much rather see monies invested in ethanol refineries. The sooner this country converts and breaks from it's dependency on the Middle East the safer and better off we would all be. Not only would it bring about a cleaner more cost efficient form of fuel it would also be the resurection of the American farmer who could easily produce corn in great numbers.

 

Interesting Wiki read about Brazil & Ethanol; it has taken 30 years! Brazil is by far the benchmark. And you know GM & Ford already produce these vehicles :blink: yet everyday there's a story about many millions they are losing.

 

Ethanol in Brazil

[Knightrider]

Though I like the idea of the windmills I would much rather see monies invested in ethanol refineries. The sooner this country converts and breaks from it's dependency on the Middle East the safer and better off we would all be. Not only would it bring about a cleaner more cost efficient form of fuel it would also be the resurrection of the American farmer who could easily produce corn in great numbers.

 

Small farms are gone, but I don't think (and I may be wrong on this) the land under till has changed much.

 

Oil Imports

 

I generated these based on the data from http://www.eia.doe.gov/basics/quickoil.html

 

This shows the average daily consumption by year. Consumption increase is reasonable, at 45% higher in 2007 compared to 1973. It tracks population increases over that same period (which is ~42%).

 

The next is unstacked. This shows that we are only slightly higher than where we were at in 1978 WRT to US oil production. We have almost returned to the highest OPEC import levels (1977 was the peak), but not quite.

 

The last is the normalized distribution of where we get our oil. Not good at all.

 

So, while our own production has increased, it hasn't increased enough to meet demand. OPEC imports are slowly increasing, but they haven't reached 1977 levels, yet. Countries that have had drastic increases: 4. Iraq. 3. Russia 2. Mexico

 

An the number one country who has seen a drastic increase in exports to the US is those price gouging Canadians.

 

WRT to Ethanol, I'd rather corn be used for food.

[chileanseabass]

WRT to Ethanol, I'd rather corn be used for food.

 

screw food. i say use corn for ethanol. plus corn gives me gas.

[Knightrider]

screw food. i say use corn for ethanol. plus corn gives me gas.

 

:lol:

[R_Dudley]

Interesting Wiki read about Brazil & Ethanol; it has taken 30 years! Brazil is by far the benchmark. And you know GM & Ford already produce these vehicles :blink: yet everyday there's a story about many millions they are losing.

 

Ethanol in Brazil

 

Yep Deluca and Wee whaler hit on a good one. Take the Brazil model a little farther and if our legislators would get off their a$$ and make it a law that all cars in this country are required to do the flex fuel thing then from what I understand for only maybe a few more hundred dollars a car once all automakers foreign as well standardized we would really start pushing the ethanol conversion. And here's another great little kicker any third world country with vegetation could get into the ethanol business instead of a few area's/countries having a monopoly on 2/3 's of the oil reserves, take that OPEC and you middle east carpet baggers.... Hell I'm so close to West Virginia here I can see it now,... Maw, Paw lets head down to general store for some copper tubing were gonna fire up that still again in the back... .

[Bmwolf21]

Can someone explain the positives to ethanol? Everything I've seen and read says that the fuel is more expensive and yields worse fuel efficiency than standard gasoline. Is this going to change as ethanol becomes more readily available, or are we seriously considering a solution that makes things worse? I honestly don't know that much about it, but like I said, I haven't heard a lot of good things....

[R_Dudley]

Can someone explain the positives to ethanol? Everything I've seen and read says that the fuel is more expensive and yields worse fuel efficiency than standard gasoline. Is this going to change as ethanol becomes more readily available, or are we seriously considering a solution that makes things worse? I honestly don't know that much about it, but like I said, I haven't heard a lot of good things....

 

Okay you can google some of it but here's my take beyond the Cleaner less green house gas , cheaper than oil majors...

 

When all you can eat is beans and the beans can only be grown in lala land then no matter what the bean farmer does with his prices you have to pay him what he wants in order to eat, oh you can alter some habits get a little skinny but you need/will pay to survive.

 

Now once you train your system to handle some other vegetables you can eat then when the bean farmer raises his price you go check the prices of other things and now you vary your diet with less beans more something else, your not locked in on beans.

 

Opec is the bean farmer and they are artifically restricting production in lalaland becuase they control the majority of the reserves to inflate the prices because they can and there is no competition/alternatives.

 

Yes there are challenges with getting Ethanol institutionalized to the point of it being manfactured and distributed in best/most efficient manner but with ingenuity over time that will happen. Hydrogen, Natural, gas other options just not viable enough yet.

 

IMHO... If it's a law all cars required to handle it and USA starts actually doing what Brazil did with converting to it we finally have competition that Opec and the oil industry will recognize and I guarantee the rapid price spiraling up will stop and it is also currently the only real hope/option to possibly drive prices back down...

 

Oh and no I am not an economix major but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last Night.. ;)

[Bmwolf21]

I did Google it and got some of that (and not that the the idea of getting off the foreign oil teet is new to me) but will we be able to produce enough ethanol to make a significant impact in our oil consumption?

 

I've seen estimates of a 20-30 percent decrease in fuel efficiency - will the ethanol-fueled vehicles ever be able to get similar fuel efficiency? And how much will the cost of ethanol have to drop to make it financially viable, especially with the lost MPG? How will a push toward ethanol affect food prices?

 

I don't know, maybe there is someone who really understands how all this will piece together, but right now it seems like ethanol is the "low-hanging fruit" and I haven't seen a lot of people shouting from the mountaintops that it's the answer to all the energy woes.

[R_Dudley]

I did Google it and got some of that (and not that the the idea of getting off the foreign oil teet is new to me) but will we be able to produce enough ethanol to make a significant impact in our oil consumption?

 

I've seen estimates of a 20-30 percent decrease in fuel efficiency - will the ethanol-fueled vehicles ever be able to get similar fuel efficiency? And how much will the cost of ethanol have to drop to make it financially viable, especially with the lost MPG? How will a push toward ethanol affect food prices?

 

I don't know, maybe there is someone who really understands how all this will piece together, but right now it seems like ethanol is the "low-hanging fruit" and I haven't seen a lot of people shouting from the mountaintops that it's the answer to all the energy woes.

 

No your right and I agree it's not "THE" answer but it is the only viable alternative right now that can at least create the competition or initially the threat of competition. On the food price issue there is allot more information out there on the fact that our farm bill pays the farmers to plow under and not produce allot of crops and some thoughts about which Bio product can generate the best yield and quality fuel and I have read that the price fear of crops is just that, fear not that the higher gas prices affected food right ? Also there is a school of thought not that far fetched as they standardize the delivery system's around the ethanol option the efficiency will get better(e.g the natural carberation evolution to fuel injection and then computerized fuel injection)... So now I'm off my soap box.

[deluca67]

Can someone explain the positives to ethanol? Everything I've seen and read says that the fuel is more expensive and yields worse fuel efficiency than standard gasoline. Is this going to change as ethanol becomes more readily available, or are we seriously considering a solution that makes things worse? I honestly don't know that much about it, but like I said, I haven't heard a lot of good things....

Did you know the 'Diesel' engine was designed to run on peanut oil? I bring this up because it is important to the discussion.

 

Crops like corn and peanuts can be grown is great quantities in the United States without destroying our natural resources. You don't have to destroy off shore life as well as National Parks to acquire it. It would damange one of the most influential groups in this country Big Oil. The same Big Oil that drove GW into Iraq and a meaningless war. It would silence the influence countries like Saudi Arabia has with our Executive Branch.

 

If I were elected President every vehicle in the United States would be converted to Ethanol or Electric ASAP. I would then use the vehicles running on fossilized fuel instead of bombs and drop them on our enemies in the Middle East. Our Troops would be pulled out of the farces in Afghanistan and Iraq to be used fighting real injustices in the Sudan and other non-oil producing countries that the administration can't bother to care about.