[OT] Seneca Casino in Buffalo

[matter2003]

I know this is a little off topic, but I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on the judge ruling the Senecas cannot operate a casino in Buffalo.

 

Personally, I really don't care about gambling one way or the other. I work in NF and I see that it has little to no effect on boosting the economy of the area, which is by far worse than Buffalo's own dreadful economy. However, I find it extremely strange that the judge based his ruling on what Congress "intended" the law to mean. Unfortunately this is going to be overruled by the Supreme Court almost surely based on the fact that judges are to uphold the law as written, not interpret what they might have meant or didn't mean. It is ridiculous based on the facts presented that the judge ruled against them. The whole lawsuit was because the Citizens for a Better Buffalo said that they could only operate casino's on sovereign land, and they questioned whether that was the case. The judge ruled that it IS sovereign land, which means the plaintiffs should have lost their case, since their whole basis for saying they couldn't operate the casino is because it was NOT sovereign land, and not trying to figure out what Congress had in mind while writing the law.

 

Basically the way I see it going down is this. The Senecas are going to say that since it has been determined in court by a Federal judge that it IS sovereign land, the US government by law and treaty have no jurisdiction to tell them what they can or cannot do on their land. Therefore any court ruling regarding those matters is null and void, since it doesn't apply to them anyway. The government is going to send marshals or officials to shut down the casino and the Senecas are going to let them know they have no jurisdiction on their land and to get out.

 

I see absolutely no way based on the treaties, laws and other acts passed by Congress that this ruling can stand, and by and in large is about a judge trying to be a local hero and get his name in the press, IMHO, because he has got to know there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that ruling will stand on an appeal...

[LabattBlue]

I think a good indicator of how this will play out is that the Seneca's are going to keep right on building the new casino and operating the temporary one without any stoppages.

 

I'm not into gambling much, but will probably stop in before or after a hockey game several times during the season.

 

Bottom line...this parcel of land is adjacent to the Perry Projects and if the Senecas had not come along would continue to be nothing more than a vacant lot for decades to come.

[darksabre]

I can't hate on development in downtown Buffalo. I don't care if people don't like the Senecas, at least they're doing something to make the city more attractive.

 

I bet if THEY bought the Sabres, they'd bring back the old white buffalo!

[Knightrider]

I know this is a little off topic, but I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on the judge ruling the Senecas cannot operate a casino in Buffalo.

 

Personally, I really don't care about gambling one way or the other. I work in NF and I see that it has little to no effect on boosting the economy of the area, which is by far worse than Buffalo's own dreadful economy. However, I find it extremely strange that the judge based his ruling on what Congress "intended" the law to mean. Unfortunately this is going to be overruled by the Supreme Court almost surely based on the fact that judges are to uphold the law as written, not interpret what they might have meant or didn't mean. It is ridiculous based on the facts presented that the judge ruled against them. The whole lawsuit was because the Citizens for a Better Buffalo said that they could only operate casino's on sovereign land, and they questioned whether that was the case. The judge ruled that it IS sovereign land, which means the plaintiffs should have lost their case, since their whole basis for saying they couldn't operate the casino is because it was NOT sovereign land, and not trying to figure out what Congress had in mind while writing the law.

 

Basically the way I see it going down is this. The Senecas are going to say that since it has been determined in court by a Federal judge that it IS sovereign land, the US government by law and treaty have no jurisdiction to tell them what they can or cannot do on their land. Therefore any court ruling regarding those matters is null and void, since it doesn't apply to them anyway. The government is going to send marshals or officials to shut down the casino and the Senecas are going to let them know they have no jurisdiction on their land and to get out.

 

I see absolutely no way based on the treaties, laws and other acts passed by Congress that this ruling can stand, and by and in large is about a judge trying to be a local hero and get his name in the press, IMHO, because he has got to know there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that ruling will stand on an appeal...

 

I'm pretty sure "interpret" was the exact term used in my history class for the role of the Supreme Court. Legislative branch make the law, Judicial branch interprets, and the Executive branch executes the law. Thanks, Mr. Kinal.

 

It may be more than just getting his name in the press. It will certainly cost more time and money now to get the decision overturned...

[DaFan]

I know this is a little off topic, but I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on the judge ruling the Senecas cannot operate a casino in Buffalo.

 

Personally, I really don't care about gambling one way or the other. I work in NF and I see that it has little to no effect on boosting the economy of the area, which is by far worse than Buffalo's own dreadful economy. However, I find it extremely strange that the judge based his ruling on what Congress "intended" the law to mean. Unfortunately this is going to be overruled by the Supreme Court almost surely based on the fact that judges are to uphold the law as written, not interpret what they might have meant or didn't mean. It is ridiculous based on the facts presented that the judge ruled against them. The whole lawsuit was because the Citizens for a Better Buffalo said that they could only operate casino's on sovereign land, and they questioned whether that was the case. The judge ruled that it IS sovereign land, which means the plaintiffs should have lost their case, since their whole basis for saying they couldn't operate the casino is because it was NOT sovereign land, and not trying to figure out what Congress had in mind while writing the law.

 

Basically the way I see it going down is this. The Senecas are going to say that since it has been determined in court by a Federal judge that it IS sovereign land, the US government by law and treaty have no jurisdiction to tell them what they can or cannot do on their land. Therefore any court ruling regarding those matters is null and void, since it doesn't apply to them anyway. The government is going to send marshals or officials to shut down the casino and the Senecas are going to let them know they have no jurisdiction on their land and to get out.

 

I see absolutely no way based on the treaties, laws and other acts passed by Congress that this ruling can stand, and by and in large is about a judge trying to be a local hero and get his name in the press, IMHO, because he has got to know there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that ruling will stand on an appeal...

 

I am not a gambler, but I am so sick of the red tape that holds up progress in this city (or any improvements). We are still fighting over the peace bridge... the one in place will fall down before a new one is built. The people here cry to do something downtown and then they fight it tooth and nail. Wasn't it not long ago that the city took them to court to force them to build the casino downtown when they decided to build near the airport? GRRRRRRRRR The Indians will end up suing the city if they are in fact forced to stop.

[That Aud Smell]

I work in NF and I see that it has little to no effect on boosting the economy of the area

in fact, there is strong evidence that casinos in blighted urban areas tend to push things further downhill by squashing/choking off incremental and sustainable development by multiple small business owners.

I find it extremely strange that the judge based his ruling on what Congress "intended" the law to mean.

to what part of the 120+ page decision are you referring?

 

The whole lawsuit was because the Citizens for a Better Buffalo said that they could only operate casino's on sovereign land, and they questioned whether that was the case. The judge ruled that it IS sovereign land, which means the plaintiffs should have lost their case, since their whole basis for saying they couldn't operate the casino is because it was NOT sovereign land, and not trying to figure out what Congress had in mind while writing the law.

 

this lawsuit had a number of different moving parts, and the argument on the land not being sovereign territory was not the plaintiffs' strongest point. the point on which they won was that the administrative agency had just rubber-stamped the buffalo creek casino site as gaming-approved based on the idea that the senecas had acquired that parcel "as part of the settlement of a land claim." that was the phrase on which the decision focused and turned, and after some intense analysis, judge skretny wound up saying "no, this parcel wasn't thusly acquired."

 

The Senecas are going to say that since it has been determined in court by a Federal judge that it IS sovereign land, the US government by law and treaty have no jurisdiction to tell them what they can or cannot do on their land. Therefore any court ruling regarding those matters is null and void, since it doesn't apply to them anyway. The government is going to send marshals or officials to shut down the casino and the Senecas are going to let them know they have no jurisdiction on their land and to get out.

the senecas have proven themselves up for a bar fight in the past when the state troopers were involved, but there's no way they get into it with the feds -- sovereign indian nations derive their status from federal statutes, and such statutes reserve to the u.s. government plenary authority over all indian nations. consistent with that, the senecas indicated yesterday that they would abide by the decision finally resolving the litigation -- whatever that means. if the senecas wanted a stay of enforcement on judge skretny's decision, they're obligated to apply for one -- absent that, the district court's ruling is law. it'll be interesting to see how the federal government proceeds as a political matter, given (1) that they're ostensibly the defendant in the lawsuit and (2) how intransigent the senecas are intent on being.

 

I see absolutely no way based on the treaties, laws and other acts passed by Congress that this ruling can stand

looks like you've really dug into the record and controlling authorities -- fair play to you for doing so: indian law is an incredibly complicated area of the law.

 

[this] is about a judge trying to be a local hero and get his name in the press, IMHO, because he has got to know there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that ruling will stand on an appeal

skretny's a terrific judge, and his own man to be sure. in terms of his decision's chances on appeal, i note that john lafalce, who helped author some of the relevant legislation when he was in d.c. and who is trained as a lawyer, called the decision "brilliant."

 

I think a good indicator of how this will play out is that the Seneca's are going to keep right on building the new casino and operating the temporary one without any stoppages.

that's a ballsy move on their part, i'll tell ya.

 

Bottom line...this parcel of land is adjacent to the Perry Projects and if the Senecas had not come along would continue to be nothing more than a vacant lot for decades to come.

maybe, maybe not. my bigger concern is how the casino would affect the downtown and urban cultures more generally. i think the ultimate outcome would be very bad.

 

I bet if THEY bought the Sabres, they'd bring back the old white buffalo!

now that's funny.

[gg1]

in fact, there is strong evidence that casinos in blighted urban areas tend to push things further downhill by squashing/choking off incremental and sustainable development by multiple small business owners.

 

You are correct (partially), casinos are a net economic boon only if they drive more visitors from outside the area. The Falls' casino hasn't been a success because the tourists still prefer the Canadian side. Yet, the talk about the casino taking way development resources from others would be more true if there were actually other development resources in downtown Buffalo.

[That Aud Smell]

Yet, the talk about the casino taking way development resources from others would be more true if there were actually other development resources in downtown Buffalo.

it's not my contention that the casino is displacing other development per se -- the senecas are developing with all private money, yeah. rather, it's my position that a casino of that magnitude in downtown buffalo will wind up doing more harm than good because (1) the people who will go downtown strictly because of the casino will not, in any significant way, spill out into the surrounding area(s) to patronize other businesses and build a level of foot traffic that might help the cobblestone<-->inner harbor areas and (2) the people who go downtown even without such a casino will, in some significant proportion, reduce their patronage of surrounding businesses in favor of the one-stop-shopping experience that is a mega-casino development.

[gg1]

it's not my contention that the casino is displacing other development per se -- the senecas are developing with all private money, yeah. rather, it's my position that a casino of that magnitude in downtown buffalo will wind up doing more harm than good because (1) the people who will go downtown strictly because of the casino will not, in any significant way, spill out into the surrounding area(s) to patronize other businesses and build a level of foot traffic that might help the cobblestone<-->inner harbor areas and (2) the people who go downtown even without such a casino will, in some significant proportion, reduce their patronage of surrounding businesses in favor of the one-stop-shopping experience that is a mega-casino development.

 

Who are these people who go to downtown Buffalo and why haven't they been visible for the last 35 years?

[nobody]

What would help a little is if the State didn't take such a hugh share of the contracted profits and actually let Buffalo have more of it. The state might as well build their own casinos.

[jimiVbaby]

I think everyone is in favor of downtown revitalization, there's no arguing that. I really think steps are being taken, and the casino is just a piece of the puzzle. If I'm a visitor going to the Falls, do I even notice the Seneca Casino? No. The reason it isn't working is the fact it was depended on as the centerpiece, which really makes no sense. If I go to the Canadian side, I'll stop for dinner at Boston Pizza, spend my money at the casino, and then hit the bars afterwards.

[That Aud Smell]

Who are these people who go to downtown Buffalo and why haven't they been visible for the last 35 years?

i'm sure the owners of pearl street, city grill, et al. would be able to talk to you about those people.

 

and i realize it's not a huge # and it's not steady and year-round, but still.

[Goodfella25]

I think everyone is in favor of downtown revitalization, there's no arguing that. I really think steps are being taken, and the casino is just a piece of the puzzle. If I'm a visitor going to the Falls, do I even notice the Seneca Casino? No. The reason it isn't working is the fact it was depended on as the centerpiece, which really makes no sense. If I go to the Canadian side, I'll stop for dinner at Boston Pizza, spend my money at the casino, and then hit the bars afterwards.

 

I wrote a couple of articles for the Niagara Gazette about the casino in the Falls. The reason it doesn't work is that business owners were promised a "ripple effect" from the casino as the centerpiece. It was supposed to 1) bring more jobs, 2) bring more money to the city (as a percentage of the profits from the slot machines), and 3) increase tourism which in turn increases business for the surrounding area. The first two happened, the second did not. The problem for Falls business owners is that the Senacas opened a restaurant and hotel as part of the casino--remember this is all on their own, tax-free land. This causes more people to stay on casino grounds for lodging and dining. The casino has in a sense become its own mini-city.

[Eleven]

I know this is a little off topic, but I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on the judge ruling the Senecas cannot operate a casino in Buffalo.

 

Personally, I really don't care about gambling one way or the other. I work in NF and I see that it has little to no effect on boosting the economy of the area, which is by far worse than Buffalo's own dreadful economy. However, I find it extremely strange that the judge based his ruling on what Congress "intended" the law to mean. Unfortunately this is going to be overruled by the Supreme Court almost surely based on the fact that judges are to uphold the law as written, not interpret what they might have meant or didn't mean. It is ridiculous based on the facts presented that the judge ruled against them. The whole lawsuit was because the Citizens for a Better Buffalo said that they could only operate casino's on sovereign land, and they questioned whether that was the case. The judge ruled that it IS sovereign land, which means the plaintiffs should have lost their case, since their whole basis for saying they couldn't operate the casino is because it was NOT sovereign land, and not trying to figure out what Congress had in mind while writing the law.

 

Basically the way I see it going down is this. The Senecas are going to say that since it has been determined in court by a Federal judge that it IS sovereign land, the US government by law and treaty have no jurisdiction to tell them what they can or cannot do on their land. Therefore any court ruling regarding those matters is null and void, since it doesn't apply to them anyway. The government is going to send marshals or officials to shut down the casino and the Senecas are going to let them know they have no jurisdiction on their land and to get out.

 

I see absolutely no way based on the treaties, laws and other acts passed by Congress that this ruling can stand, and by and in large is about a judge trying to be a local hero and get his name in the press, IMHO, because he has got to know there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that ruling will stand on an appeal...

 

 

Judge Skretny is a federal judge. He doesn't need to be perceived as a hero, and he doesn't need the press. He doesn't stand for election.

 

Plus, that's not the way sovereignty works. Federal courts routinely determine what is acceptable and unacceptable on sovereign Indian land. (They also have jurisdiction over completely foreign countries.)

 

Did you read the opinion? The plaintiffs did not only argue that the land isn't sovereign land. They presented other arguments as well, which Judge Skretny accepted. (The opinion is free online and is really interesting. The judge presented a 400-year history of Western New York. Really cool stuff.)

 

Obviously, both of Judge Skretny's rulings (sovereignty and the commissioner's decision) will be appealed, and he may well be overturned. But to suggest that a politically immune judge made his rulings for political reasons is silly, and what you wrote doesn't accurately characterize what the judge wrote.

 

(For the record, I don't feel too strongly one way or the other about the proposed casino.)

[Bmwolf21]

I think everyone is in favor of downtown revitalization, there's no arguing that. I really think steps are being taken, and the casino is just a piece of the puzzle. If I'm a visitor going to the Falls, do I even notice the Seneca Casino? No. The reason it isn't working is the fact it was depended on as the centerpiece, which really makes no sense. If I go to the Canadian side, I'll stop for dinner at Boston Pizza, spend my money at the casino, and then hit the bars afterwards.

No offense, but I don't know how the heck you wouldn't notice it. It's the biggest building in pretty much the entire city -- you can see it from the Grand Island North bridges and on a clear day I've seen it from Wegman's parking lot on Military Rd. I saw Sinbad's standup concert there and he made fun of some people who arrived late - they said "we couldn't find it"(the casino) and he was making fun of them for missing the biggest building in the city...

 

[RuffMuff]

No offense, but I don't know how the heck you wouldn't notice it. It's the biggest building in pretty much the entire city -- you can see it from the Grand Island North bridges and on a clear day I've seen it from Wegman's parking lot on Military Rd. I saw Sinbad's standup concert there and he made fun of some people who arrived late - they said "we couldn't find it"(the casino) and he was making fun of them for missing the biggest building in the city...

 

 

WOW! Cool building! Thanks for the PIC Bmwolf! I think the Seneca should have the FALLS and whatever else they choose to build. Seems nobody else is doing any better.

[matter2003]

What would help a little is if the State didn't take such a hugh share of the contracted profits and actually let Buffalo have more of it. The state might as well build their own casinos.

 

Well, all one has to do is take a look at how the state screwed up what should by all rights be one of the wealthiest cities in the US. Niagara Falls attracts countless millions upon millions of visitors every year from all areas of the country and world. With all that money coming in to the city, the city itself is an absolute dump, and is poorer than Buffalo. How can it be possible they have all that money coming in, yet none of it sees its way into the cities pockets? Easy. New York State turned it into a state park and keeps all the revenue for itself. IMHO, at best NYS and Niagara Falls should have a close to even split on the revenue, especially since the caretaking of the "park" on the American side of the Falls is atrocious.

 

In another twist of fate, Niagara Falls supplies power to much of the eastern third of the country, yet somehow we not only get no benefit from being so close to this power, we actually pay MORE than other places for electricity. How this works I cannot understand...we should have our electricity at the very least cheapest of any place that is supplied due to our proximity, but somehow common sense is not used like that...

 

Same way we ship water to all different parts of the country(especially out West), yet our water rates are higher than theirs as well. How government comes up with its laws and rules for this stuff is almost beyond me. How can any of this make sense?

[matter2003]

I wrote a couple of articles for the Niagara Gazette about the casino in the Falls. The reason it doesn't work is that business owners were promised a "ripple effect" from the casino as the centerpiece. It was supposed to 1) bring more jobs, 2) bring more money to the city (as a percentage of the profits from the slot machines), and 3) increase tourism which in turn increases business for the surrounding area. The first two happened, the second did not. The problem for Falls business owners is that the Senacas opened a restaurant and hotel as part of the casino--remember this is all on their own, tax-free land. This causes more people to stay on casino grounds for lodging and dining. The casino has in a sense become its own mini-city.

 

Yes, and lets not forget to mention they pay their workers like crap, and treat them even worse according to many many casino workers that are regular customers of mine...

 

Not one of them has anything good to say about the place...

[elcrusho]

I can't wait till it opens....

[LabattBlue]

Yes, and lets not forget to mention they pay their workers like crap, and treat them even worse according to many many casino workers that are regular customers of mine...

 

Not one of them has anything good to say about the place...

Then why are they staying there? Probably because it is better than anything else they can find. What type of positions are we talking about?

 

PS Since when is it a revelation that there are some businesses out there that treat there employees poorly. Is it fair to make it seem like the Senecas are the worlds worst employer by a country mile?

[BetweenThePipes00]

Then why are they staying there? Probably because it is better than anything else they can find. What type of positions are we talking about?

 

PS Since when is it a revelation that there are some businesses out there that treat there employees poorly. Is it fair to make it seem like the Senecas are the worlds worst employer by a country mile?

 

 

I don't think he said THAT ... nor did he say they are the only ones treating employees badly.

[LabattBlue]

I don't think he said THAT ... nor did he say they are the only ones treating employees badly.

Fair enough, but I'd still like to hear what kind of positions they hold?

[jimiVbaby]

No offense, but I don't know how the heck you wouldn't notice it. It's the biggest building in pretty much the entire city -- you can see it from the Grand Island North bridges and on a clear day I've seen it from Wegman's parking lot on Military Rd. I saw Sinbad's standup concert there and he made fun of some people who arrived late - they said "we couldn't find it"(the casino) and he was making fun of them for missing the biggest building in the city...

 

It's not so much that I can't phyiscally see it, but I can easily ignore it. There's nothing else there and it's completely out of place. I don't see why it would be an appealing place for people to go..

[nobody]

How can it be possible they have all that money coming in, yet none of it sees its way into the cities pockets? Easy. New York State turned it into a state park and keeps all the revenue for itself. IMHO, at best NYS and Niagara Falls should have a close to even split on the revenue, especially since the caretaking of the "park" on the American side of the Falls is atrocious.

 

 

Well, I have no problem with the Niagara Falls State Park - it is the oldest state park in the country. If that park wasn't created the whole area would be filled with industrial buildings and toxic dumps and the only way to see the Falls would be to go to Canada and deal with the whole tourist chaos they have.

[matter2003]

It's not so much that I can't phyiscally see it, but I can easily ignore it. There's nothing else there and it's completely out of place. I don't see why it would be an appealing place for people to go..

 

You mean, driving thru 5 miles of ghettos isn't your thing??