How have the Sabres improved themselves historically?

[Sherman]

As I sit here upset by the Sabres lack of movement compared to other teams in our division I started to wonder, "Have the Sabres ever been a player in Free Agency?"

 

Guys that this board have killed the Sabres for letting go, Drury, Briere, Dumont, Greer and Zubris were all brought in by trade. Some other important players are Lydman, Tallinder(I think he was traded for),Hecth, Mair were all acquired in trades. Even our better player from the past that have left town, Hasek, Peca, Satan, Zhitnik and LaFontaine were all brought here by trades.

 

The other components of the teams were all draftees, Vanek, Roy, Pominville, Miller, Campbell, McKee...

 

I just think, and maybe it is more hope, that the Sabres are waiting to make another trade or two to get some people here. As I think of the list of Free Agents added over the years I can only come up with Numminen and Spacek. Can anyone add to that list?

[ReneRobert]

As I sit here upset by the Sabres lack of movement compared to other teams in our division I started to wonder, "Have the Sabres ever been a player in Free Agency?"

 

Guys that this board have killed the Sabres for letting go, Drury, Briere, Dumont, Greer and Zubris were all brought in by trade. Some other important players are Lydman, Tallinder(I think he was traded for),Hecth, Mair were all acquired in trades. Even our better player from the past that have left town, Hasek, Peca, Satan, Zhitnik and LaFontaine were all brought here by trades.

 

The other components of the teams were all draftees, Vanek, Roy, Pominville, Miller, Campbell, McKee...

 

I just think, and maybe it is more hope, that the Sabres are waiting to make another trade or two to get some people here. As I think of the list of Free Agents added over the years I can only come up with Numminen and Spacek. Can anyone add to that list?

 

Well, it is worth remembering that free agency as we now know it is a pretty recent thing, so it is hard to place it "historically." That being said, the Sabres have generally built through the draft and trades. Even their biggest "gets" such as Pat Lalalalalalafontaine or even Rick Vaive, were trades.

[silvermike]

Yeah, since the lockout, our only free agents have been Spacek and Numminen, unless you count Lalime and Thibault.

 

On the 98-99 Cup team, I think Dixon Ward, Randy Cunneyworth, and James Patrick were the only UFAs

[gregkash]

we've never been huge in free agency

[Swedesessed]

we've never been huge in free agency

 

 

And for many teams that are huge in FA, it does NOT work.

[djwilli3]

we've never been huge in free agency

 

True, but perhaps that is the problem. I understand building the team through the draft, but sometimes when you have a hole you need to be aggressive and get a guy to fill it. Further, it isn't about signing new players, but what is more important, is keeping your best players from leaving in FA. That is just as important and making acquisitions. And in that regard, the Sabres have been the WORST team in the league. Is there one top player that we DIDN'T let go in FA? Vanek, but that was only because Edmonton forced our hand by giving him an RFA offer sheet and Regier knew that if he lost all three of our top forwards in the same offseason and had no plan on how to replace any of them, the fans would have rebelled. Buffalo has never taken an aggressive approach to renegotiating or frankly with any aspect of FA, and that shows.

[shrader]

Just for the record, the Sabres drafted Tallinder in 97.

[djwilli3]

And for many teams that are huge in FA, it does NOT work.

 

True, take the Rangers. They're problem is that they don't have any young talent AT ALL that they are trying to cultivate. There's the problem. You can't build your entire team from FA. However, something the Sabres haven't done, is try and fill some team needs through free agency. We have needed a physical d-man for years, and they have steadfastly refused to try and get one. When Drury and Briere left we had a screaming need for some veteran depth at forward. Still we did nothing. Look at Detroit. They supplement their roster with FAs where they have needs and every year they are fighting into the WCF or playing in the finals. Buffalo could take a lesson from their FO. We have similar positions, but somehow, they manage to get what they need and we continually don't try or do so with a pathetic and half-hearted effort that will only lead to another outside looking in finish.

[jad1]

True, but perhaps that is the problem. I understand building the team through the draft, but sometimes when you have a hole you need to be aggressive and get a guy to fill it. Further, it isn't about signing new players, but what is more important, is keeping your best players from leaving in FA. That is just as important and making acquisitions. And in that regard, the Sabres have been the WORST team in the league. Is there one top player that we DIDN'T let go in FA? Vanek, but that was only because Edmonton forced our hand by giving him an RFA offer sheet and Regier knew that if he lost all three of our top forwards in the same offseason and had no plan on how to replace any of them, the fans would have rebelled. Buffalo has never taken an aggressive approach to renegotiating or frankly with any aspect of FA, and that shows.

 

You realize that Roy, Miller, Tallinder, Pomminstein, Hecht, Numminem, Afinogenov, Kotalik, Connolly, Gaustad, Mair, Lydman, Ryan, and Peters have all signed multiple contracts with the Sabres? And Spacek and Pratt were free agents. Even Briere and Campbell signed multiple contracts with the team before they left.

 

So the Sabres have had free-agent-related negotiations with more than 2/3rds of the current roster.

[awill29]

Is there one top player that we DIDN'T let go in FA?

 

We signed Roy last year, and he's arguably the best player on the team. And we also signed Hecht, who is a great leader and 2-way forward.

[dante23x]

As I sit here upset by the Sabres lack of movement compared to other teams in our division I started to wonder, "Have the Sabres ever been a player in Free Agency?"

 

Guys that this board have killed the Sabres for letting go, Drury, Briere, Dumont, Greer and Zubris were all brought in by trade. Some other important players are Lydman, Tallinder(I think he was traded for),Hecth, Mair were all acquired in trades. Even our better player from the past that have left town, Hasek, Peca, Satan, Zhitnik and LaFontaine were all brought here by trades.

 

The other components of the teams were all draftees, Vanek, Roy, Pominville, Miller, Campbell, McKee...

 

I just think, and maybe it is more hope, that the Sabres are waiting to make another trade or two to get some people here. As I think of the list of Free Agents added over the years I can only come up with Numminen and Spacek. Can anyone add to that list?

 

 

Throwing money at players in free agency has not proven to be successful, I'm glad the Sabres do not do it. The Rangers wasted 7-8 mill a year on a mediocre player like Scott Gomez (a combined 29 goals in 2 years) and an above average one like Chris Drury and they did not go any further in the playoffs then they did the year before. They made some poor signing this year as well, and it won't help them. While I would like to see the Sabres improve, there wasn't anyone available I feel they really missed out on. They need to do a better job of keeping the players they have and being proactive about signing potential UFAs and RFAs.

[ReneRobert]

We signed Roy last year, and he's arguably the best player on the team. And we also signed Hecht, who is a great leader and 2-way forward.

 

 

And, lest we forget... Thomas Vanek.

[djwilli3]

And, lest we forget... Thomas Vanek.

 

Only because Edmonton force Regier's hand. He realized that he was going to lose his three best players in FA and there was no way to spin that to the fans and keep them in the seats and not turning us into the Florida Marlins of the NHL. And, frankly, Vanek would be gone after this year if we hadn't been lucky and had to resign him. This FO does not offer value to our veteran players and so they go elsewhere to a team willing to pay them for their actual market value. That is why Buffalo is viewed as cheap and if you want to hear it first hand, read the things that Briere and Drury said about the negotiations they had with the team and how ticked off they got. They both wanted to stay, and probably would have for less than they got, but the FO was too cheap and screwed the pooch. Sorry, but none of this stuff proves the point. As for Roy, he's solid. Perhaps the only solid extension this FO has made up to the extension of Goose this year, but overall, their track record is atrocious.

[ReneRobert]

Only because Edmonton force Regier's hand. He realized that he was going to lose his three best players in FA and there was no way to spin that to the fans and keep them in the seats and not turning us into the Florida Marlins of the NHL. And, frankly, Vanek would be gone after this year if we hadn't been lucky and had to resign him. This FO does not offer value to our veteran players and so they go elsewhere to a team willing to pay them for their actual market value. That is why Buffalo is viewed as cheap and if you want to hear it first hand, read the things that Briere and Drury said about the negotiations they had with the team and how ticked off they got. They both wanted to stay, and probably would have for less than they got, but the FO was too cheap and screwed the pooch. Sorry, but none of this stuff proves the point. As for Roy, he's solid. Perhaps the only solid extension this FO has made up to the extension of Goose this year, but overall, their track record is atrocious.

 

 

Stop it... stop it right there. First you act as though every young player the Sabres have developed has walked in FA, and when that is shown to be an irresponsible exaggeration, you resort to saying "oh, but they didn't want to keep them..." Hate on the FO all you want, but stop pretending you have some kind of logical basis for it.

[djwilli3]

Stop it... stop it right there. First you act as though every young player the Sabres have developed has walked in FA, and when that is shown to be an irresponsible exaggeration, you resort to saying "oh, but they didn't want to keep them..." Hate on the FO all you want, but stop pretending you have some kind of logical basis for it.

 

Um, the logical basis is that there had been no negotiations with Vanek at all on an extension that point when he was an RFA. You really are going to sit there and tell me that Vanek gets a seven year 50 mil deal if Edmonton doesn't make him that offer? Have you seen any of the moves that the Sabres have made in the past eight or nine years? What on earth makes you think that the FO would offer him anything close to that? More than likely he would have been gone at last seasons trade deadline along with Campbell. See that statement actually has a basis in fact as that is the pattern with this FO. As for the history of letting guys we develop go, for the most part, we do. We'll see what happens with Paille and Pommer and Miller. But if they come to the table with that stupid 5 for 25 again like they did with Drury, you can kiss those guys goodbye too. So please, wake up to reality. Buffalo has NEVER offered players value to keep them. Drury and Briere are only the most recent examples. Look no further than Hasek, Peca, Satan, McKee, Drury, Briere, Campbell etc to see that they are not willing to keep their solid players. Make all the excuses you want, but it is you who have no basis for suggesting otherwise. When Pominville and Miller are gone at the end of the season, will you continue to say that the FO is awesome and retains all of our best players. You probably will, finding more excuses for why they left rather than waking up and smelling the roses.

[ReneRobert]

Um, the logical basis is that there had been no negotiations with Vanek at all on an extension that point when he was an RFA. You really are going to sit there and tell me that Vanek gets a seven year 50 mil deal if Edmonton doesn't make him that offer? Have you seen any of the moves that the Sabres have made in the past eight or nine years? What on earth makes you think that the FO would offer him anything close to that? More than likely he would have been gone at last seasons trade deadline along with Campbell. See that statement actually has a basis in fact as that is the pattern with this FO. As for the history of letting guys we develop go, for the most part, we do. We'll see what happens with Paille and Pommer and Miller. But if they come to the table with that stupid 5 for 25 again like they did with Drury, you can kiss those guys goodbye too. So please, wake up to reality. Buffalo has NEVER offered players value to keep them. Drury and Briere are only the most recent examples. Look no further than Hasek, Peca, Satan, McKee, Drury, Briere, Campbell etc to see that they are not willing to keep their solid players. Make all the excuses you want, but it is you who have no basis for suggesting otherwise. When Pominville and Miller are gone at the end of the season, will you continue to say that the FO is awesome and retains all of our best players. You probably will, finding more excuses for why they left rather than waking up and smelling the roses.

 

 

Have players left because they got more money elsewhere? Of course they have. But that does not mean that you are correct to say that all players are allowed to leave. Your list does not include players who did stay, and who were offered good money, and is itself problematic. Hasek wanted out. Satan? Are you seriously arguing the FO made a mistake letting him go? I do not presume to read into the souls of Darcy or Larry or Tom; all I know is that they did sign Vanek. Whether they would have or not if circumstances were different really does not matter. The fact that they opened up the wallet for him indicates that there is no clear statement to be made that they "are not willing to keep their solid players." It looks to me that you prefer to ignore the positives in your desire to be gloomy. You also base your argument on projections of what will happen to Miller, Pommers, and others, which sounds less like logic than a compulsive desire to see darkness ahead. If you like being negative constantly, go right ahead... Personally, I think that relentless negativity is no more realistic than relentless optimism, and it is a lot less fun to be around.

[djwilli3]

Have players left because they got more money elsewhere? Of course they have. But that does not mean that you are correct to say that all players are allowed to leave. Your list does not include players who did stay, and who were offered good money, and is itself problematic. Hasek wanted out. Satan? Are you seriously arguing the FO made a mistake letting him go? I do not presume to read into the souls of Darcy or Larry or Tom; all I know is that they did sign Vanek. Whether they would have or not if circumstances were different really does not matter. The fact that they opened up the wallet for him indicates that there is no clear statement to be made that they "are not willing to keep their solid players." It looks to me that you prefer to ignore the positives in your desire to be gloomy. You also base your argument on projections of what will happen to Miller, Pommers, and others, which sounds less like logic than a compulsive desire to see darkness ahead. If you like being negative constantly, go right ahead... Personally, I think that relentless negativity is no more realistic than relentless optimism, and it is a lot less fun to be around.

 

Actually, I consider myself relatively optimistic, though some of my posts here may not look that way. I want the Sabres to excel. I really do. The problem is, the FO doesn't seem to want it. You can say whatever you want about why players left, but the fact is, based on the past performance of this FO, do you really think they are going to sign Miller, Pommer, and Paille to the larger contract extensions they deserve? I have lost faith in the FO. Not the players or the coaching staff. The latter two do a heck of a job and I want them to succeed. What I don't see is the FO doing its job to keep players here and bring in pieces that will help us get to the next level. If they were serious about winning the Cup, don't you think it would have made sense to shell out the money to keep our at least one of our top two forwards last offseason? That seems like a good idea. They didn't. From all the news that came out, they barely even negotiated with Drury and Briere, and gave them obvious low-ball offers that didn't shoot. They would have stayed. Same with Campbell. Do you really dispute that? Really?

[ReneRobert]

Actually, I consider myself relatively optimistic, though some of my posts here may not look that way. I want the Sabres to excel. I really do. The problem is, the FO doesn't seem to want it. You can say whatever you want about why players left, but the fact is, based on the past performance of this FO, do you really think they are going to sign Miller, Pommer, and Paille to the larger contract extensions they deserve? I have lost faith in the FO. Not the players or the coaching staff. The latter two do a heck of a job and I want them to succeed. What I don't see is the FO doing its job to keep players here and bring in pieces that will help us get to the next level. If they were serious about winning the Cup, don't you think it would have made sense to shell out the money to keep our at least one of our top two forwards last offseason? That seems like a good idea. They didn't. From all the news that came out, they barely even negotiated with Drury and Briere, and gave them obvious low-ball offers that didn't shoot. They would have stayed. Same with Campbell. Do you really dispute that? Really?

 

 

I guess optimism comes in a variety of flavors, but at least we agree on wanting the Sabres to excel. I will be honest with you, I have no idea whether Drury, Campbell, or Briere would have stayed in Buffalo, no matter what they say now. Neither does Bucky Gleason, I suspect. Nor do you. What we have are suppositions, and projections of our opinions. The fact that Campbell signed with the highest bidder indicates that money may have played a bigger role in his decision-making than people think. Briere is a tough choice, since many of the people who complain that the Sabres did not open the checkbook for him also complain about the team's lack of grit, and tying up millions in Danny Briere was not going to provide much grit. Drury is a hard one, since I really liked him as well. It is a shame that some very good players have been able to leave via free agency, but I do not think this makes the Sabres FO any worse than any other. That is not a question of faith, since I don't spend a whole lot of time investing my faith in people I have never met. I choose (a key word in thinking about following sports, which is a voluntary activity that people pursue because it gives them pleasure) to wait until the FO actually lets Miller, Pommers, or Paille to leave before being upset at them for letting them leave. You are entitled to choose otherwise.

[ReneRobert]

I guess optimism comes in a variety of flavors, but at least we agree on wanting the Sabres to excel. I will be honest with you, I have no idea whether Drury, Campbell, or Briere would have stayed in Buffalo, no matter what they say now. Neither does Bucky Gleason, I suspect. Nor do you. What we have are suppositions, and projections of our opinions. The fact that Campbell signed with the highest bidder indicates that money may have played a bigger role in his decision-making than people think. Briere is a tough choice, since many of the people who complain that the Sabres did not open the checkbook for him also complain about the team's lack of grit, and tying up millions in Danny Briere was not going to provide much grit. Drury is a hard one, since I really liked him as well. It is a shame that some very good players have been able to leave via free agency, but I do not think this makes the Sabres FO any worse than any other. That is not a question of faith, since I don't spend a whole lot of time investing my faith in people I have never met. I choose (a key word in thinking about following sports, which is a voluntary activity that people pursue because it gives them pleasure) to wait until the FO actually lets Miller, Pommers, or Paille leave before being upset at them for letting them leave. You are entitled to choose otherwise.

 

Bump....

 

I guess we can cross Paille off the "chicken little list...." :thumbsup:

[ReneRobert]

I guess optimism comes in a variety of flavors, but at least we agree on wanting the Sabres to excel. I will be honest with you, I have no idea whether Drury, Campbell, or Briere would have stayed in Buffalo, no matter what they say now. Neither does Bucky Gleason, I suspect. Nor do you. What we have are suppositions, and projections of our opinions. The fact that Campbell signed with the highest bidder indicates that money may have played a bigger role in his decision-making than people think. Briere is a tough choice, since many of the people who complain that the Sabres did not open the checkbook for him also complain about the team's lack of grit, and tying up millions in Danny Briere was not going to provide much grit. Drury is a hard one, since I really liked him as well. It is a shame that some very good players have been able to leave via free agency, but I do not think this makes the Sabres FO any worse than any other. That is not a question of faith, since I don't spend a whole lot of time investing my faith in people I have never met. I choose (a key word in thinking about following sports, which is a voluntary activity that people pursue because it gives them pleasure) to wait until the FO actually lets Miller, Pommers, or Paille to leave before being upset at them for letting them leave. You are entitled to choose otherwise.

 

 

Bump again.... Scratch Miller from the "Chicken Little List" as well... :thumbsup:

 

On to Pomminstein!