Wade Dubielewicz Anyone?

[shrader]

Cup winning goal was a softy trickling 5-hole.

 

Love,

 

Fawning Media

 

That was the ultimate in bad luck. That puck had come to a complete stop and he fell on just the wrong spot to force it in.

 

I didn't actually say his name wasn't very well known. I said, "Ryan Miller is not a name on the lips of many hockey fans." I was implying he is on the verge of irrelevance to most of the league. Do you think fans on teams with goaltending issues sit around and dream of having Ryan Miller tend their crease?

 

I guess it depends on what kind of fans we're talking about here, but I can't even count the number of times I heard/read comments about why he wasn't playing in the world championships. Yeah, many fans might not dream of having him in net, but I'm sure they'd rather have him over many other goalies out there. Really, how many current goalies do fans really dream about having anyway? Outside of Brodeur, Luongo and maybe Kipper, I can't think of any goalies that have that superstar reputation.

[Bmwolf21]

BM, I'll deal with you later. I have another BM to deal with.

Fantastic. I'll be waiting with baited breath...

[stenbaro]

That was the ultimate in bad luck. That puck had come to a complete stop and he fell on just the wrong spot to force it in.

I guess it depends on what kind of fans we're talking about here, but I can't even count the number of times I heard/read comments about why he wasn't playing in the world championships. Yeah, many fans might not dream of having him in net, but I'm sure they'd rather have him over many other goalies out there. Really, how many current goalies do fans really dream about having anyway? Outside of Brodeur, Luongo and maybe Kipper, I can't think of any goalies that have that superstar reputation.

Here it goes..I was all done trying to argue my point on this argument so I am gonna spin it a different way..Here are my Goalies I would take overRyan Miller without going into detailed specifics as to why..I dont want to waste any more time since it is an irrelevant action anyway..

Lundquist NYR

Luongo

Brodeur

Backstrom

Giguere

Nabakov

Turco

 

Get dirty..lol

[inkman]

Suck my armpit.

Let's leave Inkman's love life out of this.

:w00t:

[Bmwolf21]

Here it goes..I was all done trying to argue my point on this argument so I am gonna spin it a different way..Here are my Goalies I would take overRyan Miller without going into detailed specifics as to why..I dont want to waste any more time since it is an irrelevant action anyway..

Lundquist NYR

Luongo

Brodeur

Backstrom

Giguere

Nabakov

Turco

 

Get dirty..lol

That's a fair list, for the most part. I'd put Luongo, Brodeur and Nabokov on the definite list (I'd also add Kipper); I'd put Giguere, Turco and Lundqvist on the questionable list (as in "is that goalie significantly better than Ryan Miller?" I think Lundy and Turco are a little better in the regular season but both have struggled in the playoffs, while Ryan has been good in the regular season and better in the playoffs; Giguere is kind of inconsistent IMO - sometimes he is great and sometimes he is very average, but he does have his name on the Cup.) I tend to take the play of trap goalies like Backstrom (and Leclaire in Columbus) with a grain of salt, since they are not facing a lot of shots and not facing a lot of prime scoring ops, thanks to the team defense. That being said I am impressed as hell with both Backstrom and Leclaire and would be interested in seeing how they fare in a more conventional system.

[shrader]

Not exactly a long list, but I have no problem with it. It adds nothing to the argument, but I wonder how many average fans have a clue who Backstrom is.

[stenbaro]

Not exactly a long list, but I have no problem with it. It adds nothing to the argument, but I wonder how many average fans have a clue who Backstrom is.

Probably not many...I think Miller is an above average goalie..I just dont classify him as great in my book..There are only a few goalies I would take over him playing now with that said though..I would want to see him play better than last year before I payed him a huge contract..Which puts the Sabres in a predicament..If they dont pay him now and he plays better than last year he is gonna be a 8 milion dollar goalie..If last year is as good as it gets and they pay him 6 mil this yr they are screwed....

[Bmwolf21]

Probably not many...I think Miller is an above average goalie..I just dont classify him as great in my book..There are only a few goalies I would take over him playing now with that said though..I would want to see him play better than last year before I payed him a huge contract..Which puts the Sabres in a predicament..If they dont pay him now and he plays better than last year he is gonna be a 8 milion dollar goalie..If last year is as good as it gets and they pay him 6 mil this yr they are screwed....

That begs the question, though - why would you assume that last year, an admittedly off year in a season when much of the team slumped, is "as good as it gets?" Why wouldn't his previous years, when he improved steadily, won more games, was very good in the playoffs, etc., be a better indicator of his potential - i.e., how good he can get?

 

There is a risk with ANY big contract, not just the goalie. If Vanek goes into the tank and we have his $7M cap hit for the next 5-6 years and only get 25-30 goals and an equal number of assists, then we're screwed as well.

[stenbaro]

That begs the question, though - why would you assume that last year, an admittedly off year in a season when much of the team slumped, is "as good as it gets?" Why wouldn't his previous years, when he improved steadily, won more games, was very good in the playoffs, etc., be a better indicator of his potential - i.e., how good he can get?

There is a risk with ANY big contract, not just the goalie. If Vanek goes into the tank and we have his $7M cap hit for the next 5-6 years and only get 25-30 goals and an equal number of assists, then we're screwed as well.

I didnt assume last year was as good as it gets..I stated"If" last year was as good as it gets..But make no mistake he was as much if not the biggest reason for their demise than anyone out there..He went from being outstanding on shootouts to down right embarassing..That alone cost them the playoffs.He was the second worst goalie in shootouts in the NHL and the only reason he wasnt the worst was due to a backup who faced two shots..Cant blame that on the defense can we..I am just saying I hope they are cautious and make the right decision..I also will add this about Ryan..He seems like he took full responsibity for his play last yr and I believe he wouldnt ask for a ridiculous contract after that debacle of a season..I think he wil be quite fair in his negotiations..Vanek is a whole different story, and I am not gonna jump into that diversion..

 

I would normally give him the benefit of the doubt but he had a Rick Ankiel turn of events, it looked like he just lost it..

[Bmwolf21]

I didnt assume last year was as good as it gets..I stated"If" last year was as good as it gets..But make no mistake he was as much if not the biggest reason for their demise than anyone out there..He went from being outstanding on shootouts to down right embarassing..That alone cost them the playoffs.He was the second worst goalie in shootouts in the NHL and the only reason he wasnt the worst was due to a backup who faced two shots..Cant blame that on the defense can we..I am just saying I hope they are cautious and make the right decision..I also will add this about Ryan..He seems like he took full responsibity for his play last yr and I believe he wouldnt ask for a ridiculous contract after that debacle of a season..I think he wil be quite fair in his negotiations..Vanek is a whole different story, and I am not gonna jump into that diversion..

 

I would normally give him the benefit of the doubt but he had a Rick Ankiel turn of events, it looked like he just lost it..

The idea that "his shootouts alone cost them the playoffs" is ridiculous. If you said "the team's record in shootouts cost them the playoffs" you'd be dead on, but to lay the shootout record solely at Ryan's feet is spinning the truth at best. The shooters were just as inconsistent and downright bad as Ryan was in the shootouts. Don't forget that Ryan's last three shootouts he allowed a total of four goals on 12 attempts, including stopping 5/6 against Toronto with the season on the line, so there were signs that he was figuring out what was going wrong in the SO and working to correct it.

 

Besides there were a lot of factors in why they missed not the playoffs, including their Jekyll-and-Hyde offense that would blow out a team 10-1 one night then not manage more than two goals for the next two weeks; a PP that was piss-poor at times; defensemen who couldn't defend or score; guys like Vanek who were streaky as all heck; the a lack of a true no.2 center for most of the season, and probably most importantly, the losing streak where we dropped 12 of 13 after running off a 6-game winning streak (late December through mid-January.)

 

I also wasn't accusing you of assuming that last year's Ryan is as good as it gets. I just don't understand how someone would even make that comment about a 28-year-old goaltender - he's not past his prime, and he had two good years before that. Like I said I look at last year's results as an aberration -- in my eyes, all indications are that the entire team took a step back this year, and Ryan did along with them. He didn't drag them down to a worse record, but he didn't do much to lift the team out of the doldrums.

 

The Vanek contract comment is not a diversion, it's simple economic fact in the cap era. Any player with a big contract can screw the organization if he doesn't perform to expectations, whether it's Ryan, Vanek, Roy, or some as yet-unsigned free agent.

[stenbaro]

The idea that "his shootouts alone cost them the playoffs" is ridiculous. If you said "the team's record in shootouts cost them the playoffs" you'd be dead on, but to lay the shootout record solely at Ryan's feet is spinning the truth at best. The shooters were just as inconsistent and downright bad as Ryan was in the shootouts. Don't forget that Ryan's last three shootouts he allowed a total of four goals on 12 attempts, including stopping 5/6 against Toronto with the season on the line, so there were signs that he was figuring out what was going wrong in the SO and working to correct it.

 

Besides there were a lot of factors in why they missed not the playoffs, including their Jekyll-and-Hyde offense that would blow out a team 10-1 one night then not manage more than two goals for the next two weeks; a PP that was piss-poor at times; defensemen who couldn't defend or score; guys like Vanek who were streaky as all heck; the a lack of a true no.2 center for most of the season, and probably most importantly, the losing streak where we dropped 12 of 13 after running off a 6-game winning streak (late December through mid-January.)

 

I also wasn't accusing you of assuming that last year's Ryan is as good as it gets. I just don't understand how someone would even make that comment about a 28-year-old goaltender - he's not past his prime, and he had two good years before that. Like I said I look at last year's results as an aberration -- in my eyes, all indications are that the entire team took a step back this year, and Ryan did along with them. He didn't drag them down to a worse record, but he didn't do much to lift the team out of the doldrums.

 

The Vanek contract comment is not a diversion, it's simple economic fact in the cap era. Any player with a big contract can screw the organization if he doesn't perform to expectations, whether it's Ryan, Vanek, Roy, or some as yet-unsigned free agent.

I disagree..He was horrible in the shootouts..He was a coin flip from making the save or letting it in..Thats a seven point swing..His play more than any other player on the ice dictates whether we win or lose..I expected him to be what he was the year before.Dominant in the shootouts..He was the opposite..He lost his confidence and shooters figured him out..A 28 yr old goaltender hit his prime and we shouldnt be wondering if he is great or average,...

The bottom line on Miller now is he probably had an off year, but there is more than enough doubt in my mind from his performance last year that I would tread very carefully before I gave him a longterm deal.. He isnt 24 with room for improvement.

[Bmwolf21]

I disagree..He was horrible in the shootouts..He was a coin flip from making the save or letting it in..Thats a seven point swing..His play more than any other player on the ice dictates whether we win or lose..I expected him to be what he was the year before.Dominant in the shootouts..He was the opposite..He lost his confidence and shooters figured him out..A 28 yr old goaltender hit his prime and we shouldnt be wondering if he is great or average,...

The bottom line on Miller now is he probably had an off year, but there is more than enough doubt in my mind from his performance last year that I would tread very carefully before I gave him a longterm deal.. He isnt 24 with room for improvement.

First off, I think pissing away 19 of a possible 26 points during that 13-game streak in December-January and 37 games of scoring two goals or fewer were much bigger factors in keeping us out of the playoffs, but I digress.

 

I am not saying Ryan was great in shootouts this year, not by a long shot. But to pin the team's shootout record on him alone is just flat-out wrong. Our shooters were among the worst in the league -- they scored 12 goals in 13 shootouts. That means that more often than not Ryan had to stop at least 2/3 just for his team to have a chance. Not surprisingly he didn't do that. He's as much at fault as the shooters, but it's definitely a 50-50 thing. To blame the shootout record solely on him is simply inaccurate.

 

And just to clarify - Ryan's record in shootouts was 4-7, meaning "his poor shootout play" cost his team a total of 3 7 points. We missed the playoffs by four.

 

EDIT: I know I :censored: up here, no need to point it out.

[X. Benedict]

I disagree..He was horrible in the shootouts..He was a coin flip from making the save or letting it in..Thats a seven point swing..His play more than any other player on the ice dictates whether we win or lose..I expected him to be what he was the year before.Dominant in the shootouts..He was the opposite..He lost his confidence and shooters figured him out..A 28 yr old goaltender hit his prime and we shouldnt be wondering if he is great or average,...

The bottom line on Miller now is he probably had an off year, but there is more than enough doubt in my mind from his performance last year that I would tread very carefully before I gave him a longterm deal.. He isnt 24 with room for improvement.

 

Just off the top of my head here, I think maybe 3 or 4 keepers played more minutes than Miller.

They all ran out of gas in the playoffs. Broduer was terrible, Kippersof got pulled twice, and even Nabokov was not sharp.

 

Contrast that with Osgood and Fluery that both sat most of the season.

 

I'm not really worried about Miller. Find a backup can deliver 15 quality starts and that will go a long way toward getting those 5-10 pts. to get back in the playoffs.

[Stoner]

First off, I think pissing away 19 of a possible 26 points during that 13-game streak in December-January and 37 games of scoring two goals or fewer were much bigger factors in keeping us out of the playoffs, but I digress.

 

I am not saying Ryan was great in shootouts this year, not by a long shot. But to pin the team's shootout record on him alone is just flat-out wrong. Our shooters were among the worst in the league -- they scored 12 goals in 13 shootouts. That means that more often than not Ryan had to stop at least 2/3 just for his team to have a chance. Not surprisingly he didn't do that. He's as much at fault as the shooters, but it's definitely a 50-50 thing. To blame the shootout record solely on him is simply inaccurate.

 

And just to clarify - Ryan's record in shootouts was 4-7, meaning "his poor shootout play" cost his team a total of 3 points. We missed the playoffs by four.

 

It surprised the hell out of me given how good he had been in shootouts and breakaways in previous seasons.

[Stoner]

Fantastic. I'll be waiting with baited breath...

 

I got nothin' here. I'm out of posting shape. It's too hot, and hockey season is over.

 

We both like Ryan. I'm just not as high on him as you are.

 

See you in September, two posts in THAT direction!

[Bmwolf21]

Just off the top of my head here, I think maybe 3 or 4 keepers played more minutes than Miller.

They all ran out of gas in the playoffs. Broduer was terrible, Kippersof got pulled twice, and even Nabokov was not sharp.

 

Contrast that with Osgood and Fluery that both sat most of the season.

 

I'm not really worried about Miller. Find a backup can deliver 15 quality starts and that will go a long way toward getting those 5-10 pts. to get back in the playoffs.

Actually it was only two - Brodeur (1st) and Nabokov (2nd.) LINK

It surprised the hell out of me given how good he had been in shootouts and breakaways in previous seasons.

In contrast to his performance last year - yeah, it was surprising in that sense. But in terms of how perfect he needed to be to win a shootout, less surprising. I don't know how many teams are going to have great SO records when their shooters manage just 12 goals in 13 shootouts.

 

I got nothin' here. I'm out of posting shape. It's too hot, and hockey season is over.

 

We both like Ryan. I'm just not as high on him as you are.

 

See you in September, two posts in THAT direction!

Welcome back, brooding superstar. To September: :beer:

[stenbaro]

First off, I think pissing away 19 of a possible 26 points during that 13-game streak in December-January and 37 games of scoring two goals or fewer were much bigger factors in keeping us out of the playoffs, but I digress.

 

I am not saying Ryan was great in shootouts this year, not by a long shot. But to pin the team's shootout record on him alone is just flat-out wrong. Our shooters were among the worst in the league -- they scored 12 goals in 13 shootouts. That means that more often than not Ryan had to stop at least 2/3 just for his team to have a chance. Not surprisingly he didn't do that. He's as much at fault as the shooters, but it's definitely a 50-50 thing. To blame the shootout record solely on him is simply inaccurate.

 

And just to clarify - Ryan's record in shootouts was 4-7, meaning "his poor shootout play" cost his team a total of 3 points. We missed the playoffs by four.

If you get a point for a win in a shootout and you lose 7 doesnt that mean you lose 7 points???? Not saying anyone is perfect however..Just clarifying

[Bmwolf21]

If you get a point for a win in a shootout and you lose 7 doesnt that mean you lose 7 points???? Not saying anyone is perfect however..Just clarifying

:oops:

I don't know WTF I was thinking there. Scratch that. I'm gonna chalk that up to being in the sun this afternoon. Yeah, that's it - that's the ticket...

 

But the point still stands (sort of) - Ryan's shootout play alone did not cost us the playoffs. We scored 12 goals in 13 shootouts -- averaging less than one goal/shootout. The poor shootout record is, at the very least, equal.

[Kristian]

First off, I think pissing away 19 of a possible 26 points during that 13-game streak in December-January and 37 games of scoring two goals or fewer were much bigger factors in keeping us out of the playoffs, but I digress.

 

QFT

 

:beer:

[deluca67]

:oops:

I don't know WTF I was thinking there. Scratch that. I'm gonna chalk that up to being in the sun this afternoon. Yeah, that's it - that's the ticket...

 

But the point still stands (sort of) - Ryan's shootout play alone did not cost us the playoffs. We scored 12 goals in 13 shootouts -- averaging less than one goal/shootout. The poor shootout record is, at the very least, equal.

That is dead on. Unless Ryan Miller is expected to score on the shootouts you can't place the blame at his feet.

[stenbaro]

:oops:

I don't know WTF I was thinking there. Scratch that. I'm gonna chalk that up to being in the sun this afternoon. Yeah, that's it - that's the ticket...

 

But the point still stands (sort of) - Ryan's shootout play alone did not cost us the playoffs. We scored 12 goals in 13 shootouts -- averaging less than one goal/shootout. The poor shootout record is, at the very least, equal.

We obviously are not gonna agree on Miller either until he Plays up to his potential or he falters all the way oughta here so I am gonna ask another off the path question to you

On percentage scale where would you put Miller on the blame list for missing the playoffs?

I put Millers at 25%

I put Drury at 40%

Briere at 5

Vanek 5

Defense 25%

 

Which equals in the big picture : Tom Galisano at 50 % of the problem and the players at 50% of the problem. IMO

 

PS..CAnt wait till the draft so we can move on to another yr.. :thumbsup:

[X. Benedict]

We obviously are not gonna agree on Miller either until he Plays up to his potential or he falters all the way oughta here so I am gonna ask another off the path question to you

On percentage scale where would you put Miller on the blame list for missing the playoffs?

I put Millers at 25%

I put Drury at 40%

Briere at 5

Vanek 5

Defense 25%

 

Which equals in the big picture : Tom Galisano at 50 % of the problem and the players at 50% of the problem. IMO

 

PS..CAnt wait till the draft so we can move on to another yr.. :thumbsup:

 

Blame? To do that I think you have to name somebody that could be put in Miller's situation (77 games) and definitively (or at least with some confidence) be shown to outperform him. I think it is a pretty short list.

[stenbaro]

Blame? To do that I think you have to name somebody that could be put in Miller's situation (77 games) and definitively (or at least with some confidence) be shown to outperform him. I think it is a pretty short list.

I think Miller played bad compared to what I and everyone else expected last year regardless of his amount of of playing time..Did his excessive playing time cause him to play bad..Probably, but he is still acoountable for his play absolutely. I guarantee you Miller isnt making excuses for his bad play why are we? I remember more games last year when we needed a big save from him and didnt get it than when we received the "big" save from him.. So I do hold him more accountable..It doesnt meen to say he isnt the goalie of the Sabres..I just think there is cause for alarm and caution..It wouldnt shock me to see him come out and play better than he has and improve himself, I think he is that driven. However I would have abackup plan in place cuz sometimes a player does just lose it..

 

Last yrs short list grew a little longer this yr..

[nfreeman]

I'm a pretty big fan of Miller's, but I will admit to being disappointed in his play this year. I think he was one of many Sabres who didn't respond well to the offseason stomach punch delivered by management. I also think he was overworked and exhausted. There was a really good thread a couple of months ago about this where someone (I think maybe Dwight Drane) posted some pretty compelling stats about overworked goalies.

 

Having said that, I still have a lot of confidence that he is the man long-term and want him signed up as the franchise goalie. As for the posters saying "I'd be very careful about giving him a big contract" -- what does that mean, exactly? The Sabres don't have another season to evaluate his play. We either have to give him a big contract (i.e. 6 years x $6.5 million-plus) in the next 90 days, or he's gone. That's just the truth. There's no "being careful" about the decision. It's either yes or no. I vote yes.

[apuszczalowski]

That is dead on. Unless Ryan Miller is expected to score on the shootouts you can't place the blame at his feet.

maybe he should be

 

I think the problem is Buffalo is running out of "whipping boys" on its sports teams

 

The Sabres got rid of Briere (just for you), Campbell, Kalinan won't be back, that leaves only Peters who doesn't get much ice time and maybe Tallinder/Lydman and Kotalik

 

The Bills got rid of Coy Wire, Mike Williams, Larry Triplett, Mike Gandy, Peerless Price.....................

 

The fans need someone to blame the teams problems on