Wade Dubielewicz Anyone?

[Bmwolf21]

I think he should have been better than he was last yr..The team needed for him to step up and perform..He played bad...Shootouts were horrible..Maybe he had a bad yr..I am not saying he wont become a great or your elite goalie I just dont think he is there yet..He might..

See I can agree with you on the first statement -- that he should have been better than he was last year, particularly in shootouts -- but I can't make that illogical leap that says "should have been better" = "he played bad." He was inconsistent on his own, but he also got little to no support from his backup goalie and his defense for much of the year. And unlike you I look at his body of work (not just one off year when pretty much the whole team had an off year) and realize that he is a very good/great goalie who needs a little more consistency in his own game and a defense other than the "jailbreak" system our blueliners employed for much of the year to make the leap to an elite goaltender.

 

Analyzing a goaltender's play in a vacuum is usually inaccurate and misleading. A goalie can have a good year on a bad team and vice-versa.

[stenbaro]

See I can agree with you on the first statement -- that he should have been better than he was last year, particularly in shootouts -- but I can't make that illogical leap that says "should have been better" = "he played bad." He was inconsistent on his own, but he also got little to no support from his backup goalie and his defense for much of the year. And unlike you I look at his body of work (not just one off year when pretty much the whole team had an off year) and realize that he is a very good/great goalie who needs a little more consistency in his own game and a defense other than the "jailbreak" system our blueliners employed for much of the year to make the leap to an elite goaltender.

 

Analyzing a goaltender's play in a vacuum is usually inaccurate and misleading. A goalie can have a good year on a bad team and vice-versa.

I guess after watching Hasek for so long I equate greatness to that..I think he has the talent , he needs to be consistent and he needs to bail his defense out..There were times last yr he was all alone I saw it..But there were times when he just made bad plays that cost the team also..Time will tell..

[Bmwolf21]

I guess after watching Hasek for so long I equate greatness to that..I think he has the talent , he needs to be consistent and he needs to bail his defense out..There were times last yr he was all alone I saw it..But there were times when he just made bad plays that cost the team also..Time will tell..

Hasek was in a league of his own. He is the legendary elite goaltender. That doesn't denigrate Ryan's play or accomplishments one bit, but fans are admittedly spoiled by watching Dom dominate for so long that the goalies who followed get (unfairly) compared to him.

[bottlecap]

Sounds interesting, but I fear we could have Chris Osgood backing up Miller, and he'd still end up with a SV% of .879 and a 3.89 GAA on the season.

 

My point being - We have issues with the way we approach backup goaltenders.

 

What those issues are, and how to deal with them I have no idea, but the names, Bob Essensa, Ty Conklin and Jocelyn Thibault should ring a bell or two for someone.

 

True, all true. I think since Hasek left, Lindy has issues with goalies period.

[rbochan]

I watched Dubie play with the Soundtiger's for a couple of seasons before he was on the Islanders seeing 40-50 SOG per game and winning games 2-1. He's progressed immensely since then. If you recall, he's one of the big reasons the Isles made into the playoffs last season, because he does step up when you need him to. He'd make a fine backup where ever he goes.

[SabresFan526]

Aside from this Miller good vs. is not good debate, regarding the topic at hand, I think Dubie would be a very good backup for Buffalo. My preference is still Alex Auld or Olaf Kolzig, but I think Dubie would be a very good backup for Buffalo and someone who could be relied upon to fill in capably for Miller. I'm interested in seeing where Enroth will be in 2-3 years and if he can make the leap to legitimate backup goaltender, and then in 4-5 years become a legitimate starter. For now, I think the Sabres have to go after Kolzig, Auld, or Dubliewicz.

 

With regard to the other guys, I think Vasicek would be interesting, but he's really only a third line center. If you play him with Hecht and Pominville that line becomes the shutdown line that goes against every team's top line. I think Hecht and Pominville have enough offensive ability to play with a better two way center than Vasicek. Vasicek is a more defensive forward (read not that great offensively) than a true two way guy that should be playing on the second line. I'd focus on getting a second line centerman rather than a Vasicek who is more of a checking line-third line centerman, which we already have in Gaustad.

 

Fedotenko would be interesting, but I'm not sure he fills a need for the Sabres. But, I guess it's always good to have physical wingers who can score, but I think the Sabres have enough potential guys like Stafford, Bernier, Kotalik, and Paille who could fill the role that Fedotenko brings. Now, if you're telling me Fedotenko instead of Kotalik, then I could be on board for that, but for the price Fedotenko would cost, I think I might rather keep Kotalik as he is probably cheaper and has has been more productive throughout his career than Fedotenko. Just my opinion.

[apuszczalowski]

Hasek was in a league of his own. He is the legendary elite goaltender. That doesn't denigrate Ryan's play or accomplishments one bit, but fans are admittedly spoiled by watching Dom dominate for so long that the goalies who followed get (unfairly) compared to him.

I have said that for a while, fans were spoiled having Hasek play in his prime here.

 

As for Dubie, does anyone actually think he will want to go somewhere where he will have little chance of becoming the starter? Buffalo doesnt seem like an ideal place for a goalie trying to get a starters spot.

[inkman]

Can we rename this thread, "The Official Semantics Thread"?

[BetweenThePipes00]

I have said that for a while, fans were spoiled having Hasek play in his prime here.

 

As for Dubie, does anyone actually think he will want to go somewhere where he will have little chance of becoming the starter? Buffalo doesnt seem like an ideal place for a goalie trying to get a starters spot.

 

How many options does he have? Where are they looking for a starter really? L.A.? Ottawa? Nashville if Ellis leaves? St. Louis? Not a ton of teams ... I hear what you are saying but the guy is probably backing up somewhere next year, so he is worth considering. Kolzig would be good depending on the price ... Auld I can take or leave ... could be fine, could be T-Bo ... last year at this time T-Bo looked pretty good, you just never know with these guys.

[apuszczalowski]

How many options does he have? Where are they looking for a starter really? L.A.? Ottawa? Nashville if Ellis leaves? St. Louis? Not a ton of teams ... I hear what you are saying but the guy is probably backing up somewhere next year, so he is worth considering. Kolzig would be good depending on the price ... Auld I can take or leave ... could be fine, could be T-Bo ... last year at this time T-Bo looked pretty good, you just never know with these guys.

I think there are more teams where he may have a chance to beat out the current starter giving him a better chance then Buffalo.

 

In my opinion, he would probably be looking for a team that might not be set for more then just next season like

 

Detroit - Osgood may only have a couple seasons left, Hasek is rumored to be done after this year, they do have a young guy in the minors, but they aren't fully set

Ottawa is looking for a #1

Edmonton's a possibility

LA and maybe Nashville, like you said is a possibility

Atlanta might be lokking for someone better

Chicago?

You could even throw in the Devils if Brodeur is contimplating retirement soon

[BetweenThePipes00]

I hear ya ... just don't hear his name thrown around as the next guy who could become a starter like Mike Smith was in Dallas or Toskula in SJ ... everyone seems to love him as a backup but he's already 30 years old ... is Detroit going to put that team with all those expectations in the hands of a 32-year old journeyman in a couple years? Same in NJ, they always expect to compete for the Cup. Is he any better than Gerber was when he got to Ottawa? The Sens have to have someone more proven in mind.

Atlanta is a good point, Lehtonen is still young but always gets hurt, he could step in and not let go like Thomas did in Boston ... so I hear ya to a point. he could be the next Thomas if he gets the right situation.

[shrader]

Detroit's at the point where they need to let Jimmy Howard stick with the big club full time. He's good enough for that task. More important though, he'll be waiver eligible this year. I can't imagine the entire league passing on him if Detroit were to try to send him to the minors.

[apuszczalowski]

I hear ya ... just don't hear his name thrown around as the next guy who could become a starter like Mike Smith was in Dallas or Toskula in SJ ... everyone seems to love him as a backup but he's already 30 years old ... is Detroit going to put that team with all those expectations in the hands of a 32-year old journeyman in a couple years? Same in NJ, they always expect to compete for the Cup. Is he any better than Gerber was when he got to Ottawa? The Sens have to have someone more proven in mind.

Atlanta is a good point, Lehtonen is still young but always gets hurt, he could step in and not let go like Thomas did in Boston ... so I hear ya to a point. he could be the next Thomas if he gets the right situation.

Hmm, I did not realise he was that old, I thought he was much younger then that

[Stoner]

:rolleyes: Not close yet? Come on, that's ridiculous and you know it.

 

So Miller is just lucky that they were so dominant offensively? Where is the line for a "great" goalie? Is it wins? Losses? GAA? Save percentage? Name recognition? Playoff results?

 

There are average goalies, good, great, and elite/superstar. Miller is great, not yet elite.

 

Great?! Really? Wow, you've gone over the line, dude. You've defend Miller very well for a long time, and, frankly, you probably win most arguments with me about him. But to say he's great is ridiculous. The word "great" should sue you for defamation of character. Miller is not great. He's OK to good to "aight, dawg." But great? Tony the Tiger just threw up a little in his mouth.

 

Miller is very overrated by a rabid, desperate fan base here and a fawning media. Outside of town, Ryan Miller is not a name on the lips of many hockey fans. Heck, Marc-Andre Fleury at a very young age has already blown past Miller, who's now starting to push 30 and is still waiting to bloom?

 

I find it odd that some Miller defenders are now fingering our shoddy defense (Tallinder might be enjoying it, ahem). Didn't we all start out praising Miller as the perfect goalie for a wide-open offensive style because he could stand up under the barrage and make the big save at just the right time? Now you seem to be saying Miller can only thrive if we install a Red Wing system where shots and chances are kept to a bare minimum? Why protect someone who's supposedly so great?

 

Finally, if you don't want to look at save percentage as a measure of a goalie, what are we left with?

[BetweenThePipes00]

The Miller thing aside, to say Fleury has "blown by" anyone is premature ... he didn't do anything Cam Ward didn't do two years ago ... consistency has to count for something for him just like it does for Miller ... Miller had two very good years and stumbled. Unfortunately the Sabres need to project how he will react to that or risk losing him. But it could just be an off year just like Fleury could have had a good year. Put a gun to my head I would probably take Fleury because he IS so young and it's not like he came from nowhere, he was a No. 1 overall pick, the talent is there ... but he's not blown past Miller in my opinion.

[shrader]

I do agree that Miller is overrated, but I won't go as far as to say that his name is not very well known outside of this area. How many times did that run that Amp commercial during the finals? They must be showing that for a reason. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the fact that he is arguable the best american born goalie in the game right now. I guess someone could also make the argument that the commercial plays to both the Pittsburgh (winter classic) and Detroit (home town) markets.

[inkman]

Great?! Really? Wow, you've gone over the line, dude. You've defend Miller very well for a long time, and, frankly, you probably win most arguments with me about him. But to say he's great is ridiculous. The word "great" should sue you for defamation of character. Miller is not great. He's OK to good to "aight,

Thank you for coming back and thank you for being a brother in "grump". No offense to 'wolf'. I would love this post if it was directed at me. I missed stuff like this.

[X. Benedict]

I do agree that Miller is overrated, but I won't go as far as to say that his name is not very well known outside of this area.

 

A lot of people in Hockey remember who wins the Hobey Baker.

[shrader]

A lot of people in Hockey remember who wins the Hobey Baker.

 

Yeah, I was going to mention that his name means a lot to any college hockey fan. That's much more of a a niche sport than the NHL is though. It doesn't spread much beyond 4 cities in the entire country.

[X. Benedict]

The Miller thing aside, to say Fleury has "blown by" anyone is premature ...

 

Cup winning goal was a softy trickling 5-hole.

 

Love,

 

Fawning Media

[Bmwolf21]

Great?! Really? Wow, you've gone over the line, dude. You've defend Miller very well for a long time, and, frankly, you probably win most arguments with me about him. But to say he's great is ridiculous. The word "great" should sue you for defamation of character. Miller is not great. He's OK to good to "aight, dawg." But great? Tony the Tiger just threw up a little in his mouth.

If I'm "over the line" (which I'm not) in calling him a great goalie, then you're just as bad for calling him "OK" to "aight dawg" (I don't even know where the hell to put that on any sort of grading scale. Is that above or below "not bad," "cool," "righteous" or "off the hook?")

 

I established my grading scale and made my grade based on that. If you want to spend 5 minutes to establish a scale based on something other than cereal-hawking cartoon animals, then I'd be happy to discuss where Ryan fits on both our scales.

 

Miller is very overrated by a rabid, desperate fan base here and a fawning media. Outside of town, Ryan Miller is not a name on the lips of many hockey fans. Heck, Marc-Andre Fleury at a very young age has already blown past Miller, who's now starting to push 30 and is still waiting to bloom?

I think shrader already covered this. He's in a couple national marketing campaigns, and national broadcast teams and those of the opposition go out of their way to praise him, so this isn't just Buffalo fans overrating one of their own.

 

I find it odd that some Miller defenders are now fingering our shoddy defense (Tallinder might be enjoying it, ahem). Didn't we all start out praising Miller as the perfect goalie for a wide-open offensive style because he could stand up under the barrage and make the big save at just the right time? Now you seem to be saying Miller can only thrive if we install a Red Wing system where shots and chances are kept to a bare minimum? Why protect someone who's supposedly so great?

Nice leap there. I hope you stretched first, lest you pull something. In case you can't figure it out, there is a HUGE difference between being the right type of goalie in Lindy's system and the stuff we called "playing defense" this year. There is a difference between "hey, you're going to face some tough shots most nights" to "hey, let's ramp that up to a half-dozen 2-on-1's tonight and we'll sprinkle in two-three breakaways. Hey, WTF is wrong with you? You can't keep us in the game when they get tons of odd-man rushes? You must suck and/or are overrated." :rolleyes:

 

No one is calling for us to switch to a lock/trap/defense-first system, just want to see the guys who are paid to help Ryan see the shots, clear rebounds and get the puck out of the zone actually do their jobs, and would like to see some of our forwards (who seem to think that anything south of the Red Line isn't in play) come back and help out picking up their guys and not letting our blueliners and goalie face a skills competition shootout every night.

 

Finally, if you don't want to look at save percentage as a measure of a goalie, what are we left with?

Come on, you're better than this. You know that there is not one stat that tells the whole story, that takes into account the quality of scoring ops, the number of even-strength and short-handed SA, the number of PPG allowed - all which affect a goalie's stats.

 

If you want to take one stat and use that as the all-encompassing measure to rate goalies, then what's the point of debating this? Answer the same question I asked stenbaro - Miller's save percentage was the same as a goalie I keep seeing people refer to as elite, Miikka Kirpusoff. Does that low save percentage mean that Kirpusoff is now a bad goalie? Nittymaki had a .907 save percentage - does that mean he's better than Miller? Do higher save percentages mean Mathieu Garon, Jason LaBarbera, Martin Gerber are better goalies?

 

Ryan faced the second-most shots of any goalie in the league this year, and made the 3rd-most saves. I don't think he had a great year by any stretch of the imagination, but I also don't take one down year (when the whole team struggled) as extrapolate that out to "he's an average/OK/serviceable goalie." He had some games this year where he was bad, no ifs, ands or buts about it. He also had some good games where he stole the game or kept the team in long enough for the offense to get going.

 

I think he has been very good in the playoffs when needed, he's stolen some games in the regular season, and he has room to grow and improve. This year was a wash, frankly. He played too many games, thanks to Thibault's unprecedented sucktitude and Lindy's reluctance to play anyone other than #30; the defense was, by nearly every measure, inconsistent at best and porous at its worst.

 

He can and will get better, of that I have no doubt.

[Stoner]

Thank you for coming back and thank you for being a brother in "grump". No offense to 'wolf'. I would love this post if it was directed at me. I missed stuff like this.

 

Suck my armpit.

[Stoner]

...a softy trickling 5-hole.

 

Let's leave Inkman's love life out of this.

[Stoner]

I do agree that Miller is overrated, but I won't go as far as to say that his name is not very well known outside of this area. How many times did that run that Amp commercial during the finals? They must be showing that for a reason. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the fact that he is arguable the best american born goalie in the game right now. I guess someone could also make the argument that the commercial plays to both the Pittsburgh (winter classic) and Detroit (home town) markets.

 

I didn't actually say his name wasn't very well known. I said, "Ryan Miller is not a name on the lips of many hockey fans." I was implying he is on the verge of irrelevance to most of the league. Do you think fans on teams with goaltending issues sit around and dream of having Ryan Miller tend their crease?

 

BM, I'll deal with you later. I have another BM to deal with.

[SarasotaSabre]

What "so many?" Conklin played FIVE games in Buffalo, and he was the same he every was before that. Corsi didn't even have time to screw him up. He got hot on a very good team this season. If he does it again next year I will be stunned.

Biron, for all the bitching done about him here, was developed into a very good NHL goalie under Corsi, and in fact handled playing 72 games one season better than Miller did in some ways (granted with way less pressure). Biron was ALWAYS at his best when he wasn't looking over his shoulder, and once Miller came along he always was. He went to Philly, they committed to him, and he played well. But Corsi still taught the guy the first 12 seasons of his pro career ... he gets no credit for that?

Let's not overthink it ... as I said on the other thread, Conklin and T-Bo started 11 games combined the last two seasons ... are we going to judge Corsi on those 11 games or on the careers of Miller and Biron so far? I'll take the latter.

 

great "big picture" post, excellent