OT - Is Buffalo a "Major League" City?

[Seth Greenstein]

This is a website I read pretty regularly and think it's a great site. Anyway, take a look at this article about the Bills...

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2008/05/2...deep-zone/6303/

 

There are some humorous Lions tidbits at the end but the crux of the article is about whether Buffalo can or even should keep the Bills in light of the plan to play some games in Toronto and whether this would be a good idea or not.

 

I haven't lived in Buffalo in over 20 years so I'm curious what people in Buffalo think - especially those with tickets currently. If the team were to move to Toronto but gave the name some sort of regional flavor, would you still drive 2 hours to the games? I wonder because I live in Houston and when I had season tickets, I would have been more than happy to drive 1.5 - 2 hours for a game. I would love nothing more than for the Bills to stay in Buffalo, but does this theory help the team be more competitive and still draw and connect with the city of Buffalo?

 

Be curious what everyone's thoughts are...

[Bmwolf21]

I don't live in WNY right now but am looking to move back if possible.

 

IMO, if the Bills moved full-time to Toronto, they would be dead to me. I would have less of a problem if they moved the team a little toward Rochester (Batavia area) but as long as it is still part of Western New York. If it's two hours away in another country - not the same thing.

[Mike Oxhurtz]

I think if the Bills moved to Toronto permanently, I don't think I could follow them anymore. I would probably root for the Browns, since we used to have "Cleveland Browns day" when Cleveland didn't have a football team.

[BetweenThePipes00]

If they moved to Toronto, Buffalo would be a distant memory ... the fact it is only 1.5 or 2 hours away would be beside the point. A couple games a year is one thing, I think we will all deal with it for them to remain the BUFFALO Bills ... if they play all their games in another country, they will not be representing Buffalo in any way, shape or form. I could not root for them, nor could I just "pick" a new team like Cleveland. It would never be the same.

[Mike Oxhurtz]

If they moved to Toronto, Buffalo would be a distant memory ... the fact it is only 1.5 or 2 hours away would be beside the point. A couple games a year is one thing, I think we will all deal with it for them to remain the BUFFALO Bills ... if they play all their games in another country, they will not be representing Buffalo in any way, shape or form. I could not root for them, nor could I just "pick" a new team like Cleveland. It would never be the same.

 

I hear you on that. I would like to say that I could root for another team, but I really don't know if I could. I'm a die-hard Bills fan, and I can't imagine the Bills not being in Buffalo.

[darksabre]

I'd definitely end up a Cleveland fan. Maybe the Browns could have Bills days until we get our team back.

[Seth Greenstein]

If they moved to Toronto, Buffalo would be a distant memory ... the fact it is only 1.5 or 2 hours away would be beside the point. A couple games a year is one thing, I think we will all deal with it for them to remain the BUFFALO Bills ... if they play all their games in another country, they will not be representing Buffalo in any way, shape or form. I could not root for them, nor could I just "pick" a new team like Cleveland. It would never be the same.

 

Several of you have mentioned the "different country" comment and I noticed that the main researcher, Richard Florida, mentions this issue several times in the article. He claims that it shouldn't be an issue due to the fact that things like this should be viewed from an economic reality standpoint.

 

But I agree with several of you and this article and some of the responses show me something that is so true. Sports, to real sports fans like most of us here, are purely emotional and nothing to do with the brain. At the end of the day, if all of us were to be given the opportunity to run a team that none of us currently care about (for example, the Milwaukee Bucks or something), we'd run the organization like a business and do the "right" thing to provide value to our shareholders. And in a case like this, the long term viability of the Bills might be best maybe somewhere between Toronto and Buffalo in order to pull both markets. But sports are emotional and many of us would jump ship because of the perceived lack of interest in the fans. And our feelings would be right AND it might be the best economical decision.

 

Sometimes, in this modern era, sports suck!

 

Keep the responses coming, I'm very curious what people think.

 

By the way Between, I've only wanted to mention this for a year, but I LOVE your signature! :)

[Knightrider]

It isn't anymore. With that said, neither is Green Bay.

 

As far as I am concerned, I see no issue with moving them to Toronto, as long as the name stays the Buffalo Bills, like when the Pack played in Milwaukee. That eliminates territory infringement (kind like chemo) but allows for the return of the Bills if Buffalo/NYS ever does anything to spur growth in WNY.

 

If there is no Buffalo Bills, there will be no NFL for me. :cry:

 

BTW, I tried to move back about 4 years ago. I'd've had the same monthly expenses, only the lower mortgage payment would have gone to a larger property tax, sales tax, and income tax. Throw in the smaller salary and low probability of growth in real estate value, and I passed.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Several of you have mentioned the "different country" comment and I noticed that the main researcher, Richard Florida, mentions this issue several times in the article. He claims that it shouldn't be an issue due to the fact that things like this should be viewed from an economic reality standpoint.

 

But I agree with several of you and this article and some of the responses show me something that is so true. Sports, to real sports fans like most of us here, are purely emotional and nothing to do with the brain. At the end of the day, if all of us were to be given the opportunity to run a team that none of us currently care about (for example, the Milwaukee Bucks or something), we'd run the organization like a business and do the "right" thing to provide value to our shareholders. And in a case like this, the long term viability of the Bills might be best maybe somewhere between Toronto and Buffalo in order to pull both markets. But sports are emotional and many of us would jump ship because of the perceived lack of interest in the fans. And our feelings would be right AND it might be the best economical decision.

 

Sometimes, in this modern era, sports suck!

 

Keep the responses coming, I'm very curious what people think.

 

By the way Between, I've only wanted to mention this for a year, but I LOVE your signature! :)

First of all, thanks on the sig.

 

I'm not suggesting playing games in Toronto or moving to Toronto is not the "right" thing ... it probably is in terms of making as much money as possible. I'm just saying as a fan I don't have to like it or continue to support the team, because it would no longer reprsent me in any way. That's the whole point of putting a city name in front of the team anyway, right? And if you are a Toronto fan, and the team moved to Toronto, why should the name reflect Buffalo in any way? The team is in their city now. It's theirs.

The author can claim anything he wants about how it should be "viewed," and I don't think anyone would disagree with him from an economic reality standpoint ... none of us are saying they should not move because they can make more money in Buffalo. But the economic reality is also that it probably hurts the Buffalo area economically to lose the Bills, so why should the people of Buffalo embrace the idea when the only ones it helps is the team owner and the NFL?

Also, the writer kind of lost me early on when he said "But ironically, it would make the whole Buffalo region stronger." ... Granted I don't live in Buffalo anymore either, and I am no economist, so I will present these as questions ... I could be wrong ... but isn't it ridiculous to suggest that any economic boon for Southern Ontario is also good for Buffalo? Its' like a whole other world. What happens on one side of the border has little to do with what happens on the other ... aren't all the tax issues that keep Buffalo from attracting top companies still the same? If Fort Erie started attracting Fortune 500 companies, would others suddenly start looking at Buffalo as a place to move just because it is across the river? When I say it is another country I don't mean to suggest it is the enemy, but it's not US. When you need a passprot to go there, it's tough to make it feel like part of your town or area or region. I'm from Western New York, not "the Niagara Region" or whatever you would call this mythical economic market that would include Buffalo and Toronto and everything in between.

[Bmwolf21]

Several of you have mentioned the "different country" comment and I noticed that the main researcher, Richard Florida, mentions this issue several times in the article. He claims that it shouldn't be an issue due to the fact that things like this should be viewed from an economic reality standpoint.

 

But I agree with several of you and this article and some of the responses show me something that is so true. Sports, to real sports fans like most of us here, are purely emotional and nothing to do with the brain. At the end of the day, if all of us were to be given the opportunity to run a team that none of us currently care about (for example, the Milwaukee Bucks or something), we'd run the organization like a business and do the "right" thing to provide value to our shareholders. And in a case like this, the long term viability of the Bills might be best maybe somewhere between Toronto and Buffalo in order to pull both markets. But sports are emotional and many of us would jump ship because of the perceived lack of interest in the fans. And our feelings would be right AND it might be the best economical decision.

 

Sometimes, in this modern era, sports suck!

 

Keep the responses coming, I'm very curious what people think.

 

By the way Between, I've only wanted to mention this for a year, but I LOVE your signature! :)

The researcher needs to keep in mind that the attachment between fans and a pro sports team is not based mainly on economic realities - it is emotional and often irrational (who the hell would choose to become or continue being a Bills fan or a Sabres fan with all the heartbreak we've endured?)

 

It's probably safe to say that all things being equal, a lot of Bills' fans would still support the franchise if they moved closer to Rochester (in this example Toronto=Rochester in market size and economy) but won't do the same if they moved across the border. Why? As previously mentioned there are strong emotional ties, and Toronto =/= Western New York/Buffalo. They aren't similar cities, they don't have that same emotional bond of going through the ups and downs (like the heartbreak of Super Bowl XXV) and they are vastly different in terms of economic realities - they didn't "grow up" in the red, white and blue like most Bills' fans did.

 

Besides, they're Canadian. :ph34r:

[TM8-PL16]

like BTP said... picking another team just isn't an option, but cheering for them as the Toronto football team isn't an option either... they are either the BUFFALO team or not... that's what matters to me. If they moved to anywhere inside the US, it'd be the same loss (out of western NY I mean)... I'd probably barely watch football for a long time if the Bills weren't in Buffalo, if watch it at all. I wouldn't play fantasy football either... now I'm getting depressed...

 

I'd probably become even more of a hockey fan, if that's possible...

[tom webster]

Its funny but I have been having this conversation with a few friends. A couple of my points first;

 

1) I believe that Buffalo is actually in the midst of a rebound and I think the strong Canadian dollar will be a big part of the growth. This could greatly impact Buffalo's long term viability as a major league town.

 

2) I think professional sports, especially baseball, basketball and basketball is heading in a direction that makes middle and lower class fans uncomfortable.

 

3) I think with UB's initiative 2010, there is a real chance of Buffalo becoming a college town with professional hockey.

 

4) The thought of getting more into obscure college sports along with football, basketball and possibly college hockey intrigues me.

 

5) I own Bill's club seats and have been able to buy tickets in Toronto both as a season ticket holder and through the lottery. While I did this mostly with thoughts of reselling them, part of me is hedging my bets if I want to be a Toronto ticket holder.

 

I think I would be alright with the team moving to Canada with a stadium built somewhere between Toronto and Buffalo. Living in Grand Island, I could use Toronto for my NFL fix while immersing myself in UB athletics.

[spndnchz]

While I hold out some hope for this football season to be more exciting than the last here in Buffalo. I'd lose attachment to the team if they moved.

 

Possible name? : "Border Bills" the logo could be a dude named Bill inside a barrel?

[That Aud Smell]

i was born, raised and, after some time away, now live in buffalo. (my "location" on the SS profile is an homage to my favourite canadian towns from hockey lore (it's now medicine hat, used to be moose jaw).)

 

my basic take on the inevitable migration of this franchise to toronto: i expect that i will follow and root for the team in toronto, but that my level of interest in both the franchise and the league will steadily decline over time.

 

the nfl has become a conglomerate of staggering size and wealth. even with the league's revenue sharing and the regional rebound to which webster referred (i can see it happening as well (although it's no sure thing)), i don't see wny having the private money needed to sustain an nfl franchise on a long-term basis (just look at the disparity in the 2008 ticket prices between buffalo and toronto, for starters). further to this end, didn't i read an article by someone whose arse is safely outside of their sphincter that it's not out of the question that the bills (or any nfl franchise for that matter?) might fetch a billion fuc*king dollars on an open market?

 

the (at least my) mind boggles at that kind of talk.

 

and it would be a damn dirty shame and a collasal waste if our public coffers were opened so that "we" could make one, last desperate stab at keeping the team here for the long haul.

 

i'm also on board with webster in being intrigued at the idea that we could be a town with a pro hockey team and an emerging (re-emerging?) college sports scene.

[BetweenThePipes00]

i'm also on board with webster in being intrigued at the idea that we could be a town with a pro hockey team and an emerging (re-emerging?) college sports scene.

I like this idea also, especially if I was ever able to move back to town.

[apuszczalowski]

Is Buffalo a Major league City? No, not anymore, at one time yes, but not now, and it would take time to rebuild it back into one. it won't happen overnight, and it may not happen in our lifetimes. It is definitly not a city that can continue to support an NFL franchise without getting back on track to become one.

 

I live less then 30 minutes from the Peace bridge north of the border, and am a Sabres and Bills fan, and a Jays fan. If the bills move to Toronto, I will still follow them just like I do now because I cheer for the players and the team, not the City where they are located. Now don't get me wrong, i would rather they stay in Buffalo, its cheaper, its closer, and its a better game day experience. But I'm not going to stop watching the NFL or switch teams just because they switch cities, its still the same group of guys playing the game, just in a different location. But I do understand how some can say they wouldn't follow them because they have emotional ties to the City too, I don't

[jimiVbaby]

Call me an optimist, but I believe the city is on beginning of a major upswing. I was born and raised in the suburbs of Buffalo, went to UB and now work in the Amherst area and just moved into a small apartment downtown. I heard recently that 40% of UB grads are deciding to stay and pursue a career here and I'm proud to be one of them.

 

Personally, I love this city and the Bills but if they skipped town I think it may help the city grow. So many people are fixated on the fact that the Bills are the reason Buffalo is on the map, which is further than the truth. If there isn't the "distraction" of the Bills maybe people would go out and enjoy the city for its architecture amongst other things.

 

As for the NFL, I think they've gone to such great lengths to disenfranchise their fans (see the Cowboys new pricing plan) that I'm losing interest. I'm still convinced that the NFL is the megasport in America because of betting not because of the actual game. I love hockey for the exact opposite reason. If the Bills were no longer the Buffalo Bills I wouldn't have a problem finding other things to do.

[ROC Sabres]

Personally the idea of the team moving to Toronto leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Being from Buffalo and watching the Yankees win a world series (when i still liked baseball) was great. The problem with it is is that it doesn't have the hometown tie-in. Being able to go downtown to city hall to see the cup or championship trophy would be probably the biggest event in Buffalo history (sports or whatever) I think it would be. Cheering for the same guys in Toronto would be fine, but like i said, it disconnects me from my roots and I think that is more important.

[thesportsbuff]

So when the Bills make the playoffs this year, and the Sabres win the cup, does Buffalo become a "Major League" City again? I realize there's more to it than winning and losing, but imo the city is on an upswing.

[awill29]

So when the Bills make the playoffs this year, and the Sabres win the cup, does Buffalo become a "Major League" City again? I realize there's more to it than winning and losing, but imo the city is on an upswing.

 

I think that 5 years down the road, if the Bills are still in Buffalo, and if the Sabres have kept their core players, we could definitely be near the top of the league in both sports. Both teams have great talent, are really deep, and have a good coaching staff. Let's just hope when Ralph kicks it that the Bills stay put.

[Knightrider]

So when the Bills make the playoffs this year, and the Sabres win the cup, does Buffalo become a "Major League" City again? I realize there's more to it than winning and losing, but imo the city is on an upswing.

 

When you think about how long it has been in a downswing (50+ years?), a year or two bump does not a major league city make... I see no fundamental change (like the Welland Canal opening) to Buffalo that would mark an upswing. Further, Rochester is following Buffalo's lead as Kodak circles the drain...

[darksabre]

While I hold out some hope for this football season to be more exciting than the last here in Buffalo. I'd lose attachment to the team if they moved.

 

Possible name? : "Border Bills" the logo could be a dude named Bill inside a barrel?

 

:lol: perfect

 

Maybe move them to the falls and call em The Niagara Falls Jumpers.

[SabresFan526]

For me, my interest in the NFL has already begun to decline. For some reason, the sport just isn't the same as it used to be, and I've begun to lose interest. The only things that continue to keep me interested in the NFL are the Buffalo Bills and Fantasy Football. If the Bills were to move from Buffalo to Toronto or some other city, I'd pretty much stop watching the NFL and stop playing Fantasy Football. It just won't be as interesting anymore. Frankly, I've begun to find the game more dull than before. I'm not sure if it's me or the game in general, but if the Bills leave Buffalo and move permanently to Toronto, I'm out completely.

 

However, from some of the conspiracy theorists out there, I have heard talk that Golisano would buy the Bills and keep them in Buffalo once Wilson kicks the can. However, in order for him to do this, it would most likely involve the sale of the Sabres in order to have enough cash to make the initial down payment on the Bills. The other option would be for him to completely liquidate his entire PayChex holdings, but that would completely dilute the value of the company and piss off the shareholders there. So, if Golisano is to buy the Bills, that would mean the Sabres would be for sale, and then of course their future would become uncertain with new ownership trying to move the Sabres to another city. So, as fans of Buffalo sports, it looks like we have to hope Ralph Wilson lives for a long time to come so as not to lose one of our beloved teams.

 

As for Buffalo being a "Major League" city, I don't know. With the downfall of the manufacturing industry, Buffalo and WNY's economy has been terrible. But, I think Buffalo has the opportunity to come back. First, Roswell Cancer Institute is definitely one of the most well reknowned cancer institutes, so that gives Buffalo some cache in the medical community. Second, some companies have begun to setup onshore call centers, and one offshore company, Wipro, has set up a large training facility in Buffalo for new employees/employees they bring from offshore onshore for client purposes. Buffalo has also got a decent startup community with some cool startup software companies around. And, with Paul Gaustad and Buffalo's history in the chemical/environmental industry, there might be a play for Buffalo to become the hub for the Sustainability Industry just like the Bay Area is for high tech. However, in order for Buffalo to really see this growth, it will take some smart moves by the politicians such as giving tax incentives for companies to operate in Buffalo, and the Buffalo city has never been very good at opening its arms to corporations. Adelphia almost setup its HQ in Buffalo, but you know what happened there. I think Buffalo could become a "Major League" city and bounce back, but it's not there right now and has a lot of corporate work to do to get there in my opinion, but I'm hopeful. I moved out 25 years ago, but if the right job/right opportunity came calling, I'd definitely move back.

[Taro T]

When you think about how long it has been in a downswing (50+ years?), a year or two bump does not a major league city make... I see no fundamental change (like the Welland Canal opening) to Buffalo that would mark an upswing. Further, Rochester is following Buffalo's lead as Kodak circles the drain...

Ah, but there is a fundamental change that has been occurring over the past 30 or so years. The southwest does not have much fresh water, it definitely appears that there is not enough to fully sustain the current population growth. As water becomes tremendously expensive there and elsewhere, companies will look to relocate to areas that do have water.

 

Assuming the last 3 states that need to ratify the Great Lakes Compact do so and Congress also ratifies the treaty, there supposedly are very strict restrictions on how much water can be diverted from the Great Lakes Basin. Thus meaning the mountain (er, water) won't move to Mohammed. AFAIAC, the treaty cannot be ratified soon enough.

 

Buffalo still has a road system designed to accomodate ~200k more people than currently live there and several other amenities (BPO, the zoo, Theater District, etc.) that harken back to a time when Buffalo was a more prosperous city.

 

Had the friggin' bridge been built, we'd be able to take better advantage of the increase in trade w/ Canada. Even so, as it is, I can definitely see where the whole region has potential to rebound.

 

 

Back on topic: if the Bills ever move to TO or anywhere else, the NFL is dead to me. If the Sabres ever move, I'd probably come back to the NHL in a few years after it happened, but that team would be dead to me; and I might just give up on pro sports altogether. I haven't followed pro b-ball closely since the late '70's nor at all for the past 20 years. I used to love MLB but gave up on it after the Jays had their 3 year run as defending champs.

[Knightrider]

Ah, but there is a fundamental change that has been occurring over the past 30 or so years. The southwest does not have much fresh water, it definitely appears that there is not enough to fully sustain the current population growth. As water becomes tremendously expensive there and elsewhere, companies will look to relocate to areas that do have water.

 

Assuming the last 3 states that need to ratify the Great Lakes Compact do so and Congress also ratifies the treaty, there supposedly are very strict restrictions on how much water can be diverted from the Great Lakes Basin. Thus meaning the mountain (er, water) won't move to Mohammed. AFAIAC, the treaty cannot be ratified soon enough.

 

Buffalo still has a road system designed to accomodate ~200k more people than currently live there and several other amenities (BPO, the zoo, Theater District, etc.) that harken back to a time when Buffalo was a more prosperous city.

 

Had the friggin' bridge been built, we'd be able to take better advantage of the increase in trade w/ Canada. Even so, as it is, I can definitely see where the whole region has potential to rebound.

 

 

Back on topic: if the Bills ever move to TO or anywhere else, the NFL is dead to me. If the Sabres ever move, I'd probably come back to the NHL in a few years after it happened, but that team would be dead to me; and I might just give up on pro sports altogether. I haven't followed pro b-ball closely since the late '70's nor at all for the past 20 years. I used to love MLB but gave up on it after the Jays had their 3 year run as defending champs.

 

Long term, you're absolutely right about the water. I'm just not sure it will be enough (or in time for the Bills) that people will move back from Vegas to Buffalo (Erie's nice at a fraction of the price!) when the water bill starts to overshadow the tax bills. The in time thing also applies to the infrastructure. It will always be about incentives and tax breaks to lure companies into a region. Not sticking it to the corporations is a very tough sell to the voters in WNY, but if there is to be a rebound, that is exactly what will need to happen.

 

WRT Canadian trade, I'm not a big subscriber to the geographic advantage. Manufacturing isn't coming back from the far east, unless we're talking engineering development. We simply cost too much. I'd rather see something more broad-based so that when one industry is in the dumps, the others cover. If I'm UB, I'd go full bore on low loss power generation research. It isn't the biomedical flavor of the decade, but it would have a huge impact on the area if suddenly we could power the eastern seaboard. Low loss / high efficiency power delivery could then also be used in every piece of electronics, from the wristwatch to the Prius making everything cheaper, faster, and better.