SabresFan526 Posted April 18, 2008 Report Posted April 18, 2008 You're right. Richards and Carter and Timmonen belong somewhere in this discussion, don't they? Personally, I'll make the argument that Peter Forsberg led the last place Flyers into the playoffs this year. I mean, he got them Scottie Upshall, Scott Hartnell, and Kimmo Timmonen. Since Richards and Carter were both in Philly the last two years, I don't think the resurrection starts with them. It starts with the Peter Forsberg trade to Nashville, and then the subsequent trade of the initial draft picks Nashville sent to Philly being sent back to Nashville for Hartnell and Timonen. I think what's most amazing in all of this is that three solid players from Nashville's roster are playing in Philly and they somehow made the playoffs this year.
nfreeman Posted April 18, 2008 Report Posted April 18, 2008 Being 24 and constantly working on improving go towards being more worthy. B-Rod is maxed out at 71 points. Vanek has 64 in a down year. Vanek is working at becoming a complete player. Briere is happy floating around the ice avoiding contact and the defensive zone. Vanek has the talent to become as great a player as he choses to be. B-Rod is what he is. A 60 point player with zero upside. He's not going to better and his aversion to learning the defensive game will make him less attractive in a year or two when Philly tries dig themselves out from under his contract. Who says Vanek is constantly working on improving his game? His coach, who would know, thinks he has a lot of work to do to get to elite status. If you listen to the postseason presser and the Schoop interview on the audio vault, it's pretty clear that Lindy thinks Vanek is nowhere near "becoming a complete player". And how in the world is Briere "maxed out at 71 points" or "a 60-point player with zero upside"? He had 95 points LAST YEAR. He also didn't get more than a cup of coffee this year with Gagne, who was supposed to be his linemate. I think it's reasonable to expect his points totals to rise next year and I feel pretty confident that they will. Meanwhile, he led the Flyers with 31 goals this year (and that doesn't count his playoff goals -- but that's OK, since you seem determined to ignore them too). No, I'm not going to fight with the man behind the curtain pulling a bunch of levers... Whatever you just said there had little to do with "only 3 teams in history" and "Danny led the last place team into the playoffs." 1. No we are not Detroit. It wouldn't matter anyway because everyone here hates President Trophy winners and I don't believe they won the Stanley Cup either during that time. 2. I don't think you'll get a single Flyers fan to say "Danny led" anything this past season. He's not even the best center on his team. 3. The Flyers allowed 70 less goals this season. That might be the biggest one year swing in history. That might have something to do with their success. Although I'm mystified by the reference to the curtains and the levers, I will point out that I said that Danny is leading them into the 2nd round -- not into the playoffs. My original point was that there is NFW anyone could accuse Briere of not being a crunch-time player, since he consistently produces in the playoffs (unlike A-Rod). I did not mean to imply that he singlehandedly muscled the Flyers into the playoffs. Briere was their 2nd-leading scorer (and leading goal-scorer) this year despite not having Gagne or any consistent linemates, but you and X are absolutely right that quite a few other players deserve credit as well. As for the Wings, I doubt anyone here would turn down making the conf. finals this year (as detroit did the year after they won the President's trophy) in favor of our current status. You're right. Richards and Carter and Timmonen belong somewhere in this discussion, don't they?
deluca67 Posted April 18, 2008 Report Posted April 18, 2008 Who says Vanek is constantly working on improving his game? His coach, who would know, thinks he has a lot of work to do to get to elite status. If you listen to the postseason presser and the Schoop interview on the audio vault, it's pretty clear that Lindy thinks Vanek is nowhere near "becoming a complete player". And how in the world is Briere "maxed out at 71 points" or "a 60-point player with zero upside"? He had 95 points LAST YEAR. He also didn't get more than a cup of coffee this year with Gagne, who was supposed to be his linemate. I think it's reasonable to expect his points totals to rise next year and I feel pretty confident that they will. Meanwhile, he led the Flyers with 31 goals this year (and that doesn't count his playoff goals -- but that's OK, since you seem determined to ignore them too). I listened to Lindy Ruff all season. Being "nowhere near" is far from saying he doesn't put the work in. Vanek does and has all season. Working hard doesn't guarantee the results desired. It does show the kid, he is only 24, has the right mindset needed to reach that elite status. That's why the Sabres signed the deal. I also heard Lindy mentioning that he wants Vanek to work the PK next season. More growth for a young player. What is Briere adding to his game? An average player putting up big numbers in a walk year? Wow! That never happens. Are you trying to say that Briere needs Gagne to carry him to elite status? Gagne being hurt is the excuse for Briere playing at the level he has almost all his career? Vanek didn't have Gagne as a line mate either. It didn't stop him from battling through a tough season. Considering Vanek played with the weight of his contract all season his numbers still looked pretty good. I would expect Vanek to flirt with the 50 goal mark next season. All the while B-Rod will put up his 65 or so points and people will continue to dream he is a 100pt player.
stenbaro Posted April 18, 2008 Report Posted April 18, 2008 You're right. Richards and Carter and Timmonen belong somewhere in this discussion, don't they? I really wanted to see the SAbres sign Jason Smith last year..He certainly added to the character of the team....
SabresFan526 Posted April 18, 2008 Report Posted April 18, 2008 I really wanted to see the SAbres sign Jason Smith last year..He certainly added to the character of the team.... I believe Jason Smith came to Philly via trade. I believe it was Smith and Lupul for Joni Pitkanen and Geoff Sanderson. So, I don't believe we could have signed him last offseason, but we can this year as he is a UFA after this season.
stenbaro Posted April 18, 2008 Report Posted April 18, 2008 I believe Jason Smith came to Philly via trade. I believe it was Smith and Lupul for Joni Pitkanen and Geoff Sanderson. So, I don't believe we could have signed him last offseason, but we can this year as he is a UFA after this season. He was a freeagent..nope youre right..He was a trade... http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/teams/transa...i&year=2007
tom webster Posted April 18, 2008 Report Posted April 18, 2008 I listened to Lindy Ruff all season. Being "nowhere near" is far from saying he doesn't put the work in. Vanek does and has all season. Working hard doesn't guarantee the results desired. It does show the kid, he is only 24, has the right mindset needed to reach that elite status. That's why the Sabres signed the deal. I also heard Lindy mentioning that he wants Vanek to work the PK next season. More growth for a young player. What is Briere adding to his game? An average player putting up big numbers in a walk year? Wow! That never happens. Are you trying to say that Briere needs Gagne to carry him to elite status? Gagne being hurt is the excuse for Briere playing at the level he has almost all his career? Vanek didn't have Gagne as a line mate either. It didn't stop him from battling through a tough season. Considering Vanek played with the weight of his contract all season his numbers still looked pretty good. I would expect Vanek to flirt with the 50 goal mark next season. All the while B-Rod will put up his 65 or so points and people will continue to dream he is a 100pt player. I'll put up $10 per point for Briere, you put up $10 per point for Vanek. The loser gives his money to the charity of the winners choice???? Seriously, they're both very good players playing under the weight of huge contracts and they both should be here making about $4.5 million. Unfortunately that didn't happen so hopefully they will play against each other in next year's playoffs. You can disparage Briere's numbers all you want but the facts are he is the NHL's leading playoff scorer the last three years and he has averaged over a point per game since the lockout.
nfreeman Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 I listened to Lindy Ruff all season. Being "nowhere near" is far from saying he doesn't put the work in. Vanek does and has all season. Working hard doesn't guarantee the results desired. It does show the kid, he is only 24, has the right mindset needed to reach that elite status. That's why the Sabres signed the deal. I also heard Lindy mentioning that he wants Vanek to work the PK next season. More growth for a young player. What is Briere adding to his game? An average player putting up big numbers in a walk year? Wow! That never happens. Are you trying to say that Briere needs Gagne to carry him to elite status? Gagne being hurt is the excuse for Briere playing at the level he has almost all his career? Vanek didn't have Gagne as a line mate either. It didn't stop him from battling through a tough season. Considering Vanek played with the weight of his contract all season his numbers still looked pretty good. I would expect Vanek to flirt with the 50 goal mark next season. All the while B-Rod will put up his 65 or so points and people will continue to dream he is a 100pt player. I completely disagree with you, but that one was pretty good. And Lindy didn't say he wants Vanek on the PK next year. He said he wants Vanek to be good enough to earn PK time next year -- because he's not right now. I would love for Vanek to be good enough for that, but it's far from a shoo-in. Lindy also didn't say anything about Vanek's work ethic, so that to me sounds like what you're picking up by watching them on TV. If you've seen that, great, because I haven't. You still haven't said a word about Briere's production in the playoffs. As far as that goes, Vanek's has been quite spotty, although he certainly deserves plenty of time before being labeled a Thornton. As for the rest, Tom Webster is correct with his bet and correct that both should be here at lower numbers.
deluca67 Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 I'll put up $10 per point for Briere, you put up $10 per point for Vanek. The loser gives his money to the charity of the winners choice????Seriously, they're both very good players playing under the weight of huge contracts and they both should be here making about $4.5 million. Unfortunately that didn't happen so hopefully they will play against each other in next year's playoffs. You can disparage Briere's numbers all you want but the facts are he is the NHL's leading playoff scorer the last three years and he has averaged over a point per game since the lockout. For next season? I'll bet the difference. Being a working man I would barely afford a Peters like season at $10 a point. I would gladly take the difference between B-Rod and Vanek for next season. My charity is the 'DeLuca67 needs a wide screen HD TV Fund'.
deluca67 Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 I completely disagree with you, but that one was pretty good. And Lindy didn't say he wants Vanek on the PK next year. He said he wants Vanek to be good enough to earn PK time next year -- because he's not right now. I would love for Vanek to be good enough for that, but it's far from a shoo-in. Lindy also didn't say anything about Vanek's work ethic, so that to me sounds like what you're picking up by watching them on TV. If you've seen that, great, because I haven't. You still haven't said a word about Briere's production in the playoffs. As far as that goes, Vanek's has been quite spotty, although he certainly deserves plenty of time before being labeled a Thornton. As for the rest, Tom Webster is correct with his bet and correct that both should be here at lower numbers. Right now? This is where we agree. When I look at Vanek I see beyond this season. This kid cares about his game. He takes everything to heart. He battles through it. If Vanek was from Canada or the US he would be getting every break. I think sometimes that Vanek being a "European" adds to the flack he takes.
inkman Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 I think sometimes that Vanek being a "European" adds to the flack he takes. #%^$#! that guy. #%^$#!in Euro! ;)
tom webster Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 For next season? I'll bet the difference. Being a working man I would barely afford a Peters like season at $10 a point. I would gladly take the difference between B-Rod and Vanek for next season. My charity is the 'DeLuca67 needs a wide screen HD TV Fund'. If your serious, I'll take the bet with the provision that both players have to play at least 60 games or the winner only gets $100.
deluca67 Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 If your serious, I'll take the bet with the provision that both players have to play at least 60 games or the winner only gets $100. How about $50 donation to a charity? I'll choose the SPCA.
tom webster Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 How about $50 donation to a charity? I'll choose the SPCA. Again, if you're serious, I'll choose Make-a-wish.
apuszczalowski Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 I keep seeing how Vanek only had a down year, and that his point production is good for what is considered a down year, but how do we know it really was a down year? The reason most have said it was a down year is in comparison to his contract, and because he is young, we all think he has potential to become greater, when in fact, for all we know, he could have reached his potential right now. All of the arguements right now are based on personal opinons and "potential". But the thing about potential is that its not a guarantee, its just assumptions I really hope that in a year or 2 people will include Vaneks name when discussing Ovechkin and Crosby, and not Miro Satan or Max, guys who had potential but couldn't reach it. The bashing of Briere is over the top around here, and likely because people want to feel better about him not being here. But he was a huge part of this teams offence, and part of the reason they are playing against the Leafs on the golf course and not on the ice (hopefully Peters can show Tucker that proper golf swing he tried to show him last year on the course now, I hear it can shave about 5 strokes off his game) and Briere has been a big reason why the Flyers are in the playoffs this season (not the only reason, but the teams leading scorer is usually a big part) and looking to move on to round 2. Both players are over payed compared to their performance this year, but give it maybe 2 seasons and the average/mid level salary in the NHL could be close to what they arre getting if the cap keeps going up.
deluca67 Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 I keep seeing how Vanek only had a down year, and that his point production is good for what is considered a down year, but how do we know it really was a down year? You could see at times Vanek was struggling with confidence and maybe was gripping the stick too hard. I look at his production and think back to all of the goals he left on the ice. He hit so many posts and missed a lot of open nets. If he would have hit on half of those missed chances he would have hit 50 goals easy. I see Vanek as a true 50 goal 100 point producer. IMO, Vanek will answer your question next season. He will be a year removed from the pressure of the deal. Vanek is not as flashy as OV or Crosby but I can see him involved in the conversation regarding the best young talent in the NHL.
Bmwolf21 Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 I really hope that in a year or 2 people will include Vaneks name when discussing Ovechkin and Crosby, and not Miro Satan or Max, guys who had potential but couldn't reach it. It would be nice, but I don't see it happening. I think guys like Nash and Iginla are better all-around players and they don't get mentioned in the "best player" conversations. The Ovechkin/Crosby players are elite and in a class of their own, and I just don't see TV there. Maybe in a few years, but right now, he looks like a second-level star (not that there's anything wrong with that) in comparison to AO and Crosby.
carpandean Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 To all the Briere-supporters: Danny flubbed a one-timer toward the open side of the net that could have tied the game with about 5 seconds left. :nana: (Note: I'm mostly just poking fun.)
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 To all the Briere-supporters: Danny flubbed a one-timer toward the open side of the net that could have tied the game with about 5 seconds left. :nana: (Note: I'm mostly just poking fun.) Shhhh... Danny is god! "We wish to welcome you to Munchkin Land (Lollipop Guild) We represent the Lollipop Guild... We represent the Lollipop Guild..." :D
X. Benedict Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 Washington did have quite a "Danny Sucks" cheer going for most of the second period. Where did all the Caps fans come from?
Mike Oxhurtz Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 Shhhh... Danny is god! "We wish to welcome you to Munchkin Land (Lollipop Guild) We represent the Lollipop Guild... We represent the Lollipop Guild..." :D Doug Flutie is the Grand Wizard
stenbaro Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 Washington did have quite a "Danny Sucks" cheer going for most of the second period. Where did all the Caps fans come from? Probably all Sabre fans who will stop at nothing to bash a former player...LOL
carpandean Posted April 19, 2008 Report Posted April 19, 2008 Probably all Sabre fans who will stop at nothing to bash a former player...LOL There are a lot of Sabres fans in DC ... or so I hear. ;)
gregkash Posted April 20, 2008 Report Posted April 20, 2008 Briere has really really raised his level of play. If he wasn't a flyer it'd be nice to see.
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