Danny Briere 2 goals last night

[apuszczalowski]

Plus/minus is mainly used to measure defenders and forwards who play a defensive role since offensive forwards are better measured by scoring statistics such as goals and assists. It is directly affected by team performance, thus accurate comparisons can only be made by taking into consideration the defensive performances of the team as a whole; for example, a player who is +15 on a powerful offensive team is considered by hockey statisticians to have done worse defensively than one who is +10 on a poor defensive team.

 

I found that paragraph kind of interesting in regards to this conversation. No one ever claimed that DB was ever, or will ever be a defensive forward

 

Edit - this was taken from the Wiki link a couple posts above

[SabreNod]

Plus/minus is mainly used to measure defenders and forwards who play a defensive role since offensive forwards are better measured by scoring statistics such as goals and assists. It is directly affected by team performance, thus accurate comparisons can only be made by taking into consideration the defensive performances of the team as a whole; for example, a player who is +15 on a powerful offensive team is considered by hockey statisticians to have done worse defensively than one who is +10 on a poor defensive team.

 

I found that paragraph kind of interesting in regards to this conversation. No one ever claimed that DB was ever, or will ever be a defensive forward

 

Edit - this was taken from the Wiki link a couple posts above

 

 

Plus/Minus isn't the be-all, end-all...I was just making a point comparing Briere to Roy and why I think management made the right call in paying Roy instead of Briere.

 

Nobody in this 'chat' seems to want to address Roy. They weren't going to have Roy *and* Briere on long term contracts. A decision had to be made. Some wish we had paid Briere 8 million per year, but I'm happy to have the more complete player, who has done more earlier in his career and is also really good on the PK, to 5 million-ish per year.

[tom webster]

Okay, Tom, you've definitely earned Dolt of the Month. First, you spit back whatever is dealt to you...using the same general arguments in a mirror strategy. This is typically the response of someone who is feeling cornered in an argument.

 

Which you clearly are, considering you're telling me that I don't understand the game (mirroring my correct observation of you) because I said that the PK plays a role in plus/minus, which it absolutely does. (Still don't get it, do ya?)

 

Here, let me hold your hand a bit and reply to the items bolded above:

 

You're wrong again, Tom. Go bury your head in the sand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plus/minus

 

Connolly's contract cost this team some good players? LOL, you sure do like pulling things out of your a$$, don't you?

 

Tom, I couldn't care less how much you THINK I know or don't know about the game. You've been wrong on every point you've tried to make, so I'm not sure what reality you live in. I don't need to point out that your understanding of the game is inferior, because you're doing a fine job of that yourself.

 

What "point" have I not responded to again?

 

You seem to want to play the back and forth game and get the last word in, again, like a kid. I'll let you have it - you're not worth debating with any more - not with your laughable claim that you know more about hockey because "power play goals against count zero in the plus minus rankings" LOL whatever Tom... you win (In your world)!

 

 

Nod, I hate to keep embarrassing you and TG. What Wik is saying is that if you are on a power play, short handed goals against count as negatives. When you are killing a penalty, power play goals against do not count.

While you can make a general inference that a player who does not play pk is not great defensively, there is absolutely no correlation between the numbers.

Also, signing Connolly, at the very least, cost the team J.P. Dumont if not signing Danny to a long term contract back theI'll stop the back and forth when you realize you are wrong about the +/-.

People are laughing Nod.

Exactly what point have I've been wrong on Nod??

[apuszczalowski]

Plus/Minus isn't the be-all, end-all...I was just making a point comparing Briere to Roy and why I think management made the right call in paying Roy instead of Briere.

 

Nobody in this 'chat' seems to want to address Roy. They weren't going to have Roy *and* Briere on long term contracts. A decision had to be made. Some wish we had paid Briere 8 million per year, but I'm happy to have the more complete player, who has done more earlier in his career and is also really good on the PK, to 5 million-ish per year.

Nobody wants to address it because it was never the issue. The Sabres got lucky that Roy's contract was up when it was and signed him to what they did, unfortunatly they didn't do that with Briere and they chanced it trying to get him "on the cheap", but they didn't want him anyway, he was the afterthought if/when things didn't work out with Drury.

[SwampD]

Nod, I hate to keep embarrassing you and TG. What Wik is saying is that if you are on a power play, short handed goals against count as negatives. When you are killing a penalty, power play goals against do not count.

While you can make a general inference that a player who does not play pk is not great defensively, there is absolutely no correlation between the numbers.

Also, signing Connolly, at the very least, cost the team J.P. Dumont if not signing Danny to a long term contract back theI'll stop the back and forth when you realize you are wrong about the +/-.

People are laughing Nod.

Exactly what point have I've been wrong on Nod??

If he hasn't gotten it yet, then he is never is going to get it. Maybe he means because of the lack of shorthanded goals this year. :D

[X. Benedict]

It seems to me if we lost two centers (Drury, Briere). Signed one (our own in Roy).

How does it become an either/or with Roy and Briere when we are down two centers?

 

My catholic math says we are still down 2 centers.

[SabreNod]

Nod, I hate to keep embarrassing you and TG. What Wik is saying is that if you are on a power play, short handed goals against count as negatives. When you are killing a penalty, power play goals against do not count.

While you can make a general inference that a player who does not play pk is not great defensively, there is absolutely no correlation between the numbers.

Also, signing Connolly, at the very least, cost the team J.P. Dumont if not signing Danny to a long term contract back theI'll stop the back and forth when you realize you are wrong about the +/-.

People are laughing Nod.

Exactly what point have I've been wrong on Nod??

 

Yes, people are always laughing somewhere, Tom. Sneezing, too. Are you really 48? You consistently sound like a high school kid.

 

You said this direct quote: "power play goals count zero in the plus minus rankings". But they do - if you're on the ice during a PP, you get +1.

 

So somehow YOU'RE right?

 

Direct correlation to the PK, no, but indirectly, yes. What does it say about a player if he NEVER is on the ice during the PK? It means he's not good defensively. He's not a 2-way player. And you can't overpay a guy like that. This has been my point from the beginning but it has been obfuscated again and again...

[SwampD]

Yes, people are always laughing somewhere, Tom. Sneezing, too. Are you really 48? You consistently sound like a high school kid.

 

You said this direct quote: "power play goals count zero in the plus minus rankings". But they do - if you're on the ice during a PP, you get +1.

 

So somehow YOU'RE right?

 

Direct correlation to the PK, no, but indirectly, yes. What does it say about a player if he NEVER is on the ice during the PK? It means he's not good defensively. He's not a 2-way player. And you can't overpay a guy like that. This has been my point from the beginning but it has been obfuscated again and again...

:blink:

[tom webster]

Yes, people are always laughing somewhere, Tom. Sneezing, too. Are you really 48? You consistently sound like a high school kid.

 

You said this direct quote: "power play goals count zero in the plus minus rankings". But they do - if you're on the ice during a PP, you get +1.

 

So somehow YOU'RE right?

 

Direct correlation to the PK, no, but indirectly, yes. What does it say about a player if he NEVER is on the ice during the PK? It means he's not good defensively. He's not a 2-way player. And you can't overpay a guy like that. This has been my point from the beginning but it has been obfuscated again and again...

 

Nod, this is incorrect. You do not get a +1. You get nothing. If you are on a power play and give up a short handed goal, you get a -.

 

The last paragraph is correct. My point all along is that you have questioned others credibility, but you put your own in question because you rely on a stat that you don't understand.

Other than that, and the fact that you seem to have the need to question who I am and what I am about, and you still manage to make some good points, however misinformed.

[X. Benedict]

You said this direct quote: "power play goals count zero in the plus minus rankings". But they do - if you're on the ice during a PP, you get +1.

Oh dear. But it is never too late to learn.

[carpandean]

The decision of Roy or Briere wasn't a direct one, but indirectly you could see it as an either/or decision. They had two UFA centers who were up for big contracts and a third RFA center who had shown he was ready to be on a top line. In addition, they had Connolly who seemed to have the skills to be a top line center if he could stay healthy. They decided that it wasn't in the best long-term interest of the team to sign both Briere and Drury (with which I agree.) They chose to focus on Drury and bring Roy up as the second top line center, using Mair/Gaustad or Gaustad/Connolly as the third/fourth line centers depending on if Timmy was healthy (also, it's good to have a spare center.) If not for the cup run, Briere would have been traded at the deadline (hindsight says that we should have, but there was no way they could make that move then.) Unfortunately, due to several factors, the Drury deal fell through and, at that point, it was too late to sign Danny without offering big numbers (too big, too long.) Instead of finding somebody else, they made the decision to go forward with Connolly and Roy as the top two centers, which might have been fine if Timmy weren't so fragile.

 

I had no problem with letting Briere go, but they needed to either not #$%@ up the Drury deal or bring someone else in his place. This team would have been great up front (defense still needed work) if we had Drury and Roy as centers, with Connolly filling in when needed. When they decided to count on Timmy full time, we were taking a big (too big) risk. The problem was made much worse because they also chose to leave the veteran leadership to Teppo, Spacek and maybe Hecht, and then Teppo went down.

[carpandean]

You said this direct quote: "power play goals count zero in the plus minus rankings". But they do - if you're on the ice during a PP, you get +1.

Power-play goals never count for either team. Short-handed goals do count. If your team scores a shorty on their PP, you get a +1. If their team scores a shorty on your PP, you get a -1. Put it this way: you can't get a +1 if you have more players on the ice than your opponent has and you can't get a -1 if you have less than the number of players on the ice.

[tom webster]

The decision of Roy or Briere wasn't a direct one, but indirectly you could see it as an either/or decision. They had two UFA centers who were up for big contracts and a third RFA center who had shown he was ready to be on a top line. In addition, they had Connolly who seemed to have the skills to be a top line center if he could stay healthy. They decided that it wasn't in the best long-term interest of the team to sign both Briere and Drury (with which I agree.) They chose to focus on Drury and bring Roy up as the second top line center, using Mair/Gaustad or Gaustad/Connolly as the third/fourth line centers depending on if Timmy was healthy (also, it's good to have a spare center.) If not for the cup run, Briere would have been traded at the deadline (hindsight says that we should have, but there was no way they could make that move then.) Unfortunately, due to several factors, the Drury deal fell through and, at that point, it was too late to sign Danny without offering big numbers (too big, too long.) Instead of finding somebody else, they made the decision to go forward with Connolly and Roy as the top two centers, which might have been fine if Timmy weren't so fragile.

 

I had no problem with letting Briere go, but they needed to either not #$%@ up the Drury deal or bring someone else in his place. This team would have been great up front (defense still needed work) if we had Drury and Roy as centers, with Connolly filling in when needed. When they decided to count on Timmy full time, we were taking a big (too big) risk. The problem was made much worse because they also chose to leave the veteran leadership to Teppo, Spacek and maybe Hecht, and then Teppo went down.

 

Great post. Only thing to add is that I believe Connolly and Briere were directly connected when they chose not to extend Danny and sign Connolly in 2006. That is where they made their big mistake although at the time, you could have made the argument both ways.

[SabreNod]

Nod, this is incorrect. You do not get a +1. You get nothing. If you are on a power play and give up a short handed goal, you get a -.

 

 

Dang! Line up with your pom poms, Tom. Get ready for it:

 

I was wrong! My assumptions about plus/minus, going back 25 years, have been wrong.

 

Y'know, I'm glad I've been corrected. I'm not sure how I misread that when I went to verify my assumption. Assumptions are often blinding.

 

I stand corrected before you, humbly. Master.

 

But I'm not wrong about the larger point of all this. Not paying Briere 8 million per year was still the right decision. That one I'll hold on to.

[SabreNod]

Power-play goals never count for either team. Short-handed goals do count. If your team scores a shorty on their PP, you get a +1. If their team scores a shorty on your PP, you get a -1. Put it this way: you can't get a +1 if you have more players on the ice than your opponent has and you can't get a -1 if you have less than the number of players on the ice.

 

 

Thanks Carp. I've been working on a wrong assumption.

 

But it's still incidental to the larger point, which is that any player that never sees time on the PK is viewed by his coaches as defensively challenged. Briere is defensively challenged. Paying him 8 million for 25-35 goals per year, considering that incomplete contribution, is a baaad deal for any team.

 

A few guys here disagree. Maybe they own Briere jerseys.

[Taro T]

Great post. Only thing to add is that I believe Connolly and Briere were directly connected when they chose not to extend Danny and sign Connolly in 2006. That is where they made their big mistake although at the time, you could have made the argument both ways.

Agree with you about Carp's post.

 

While I agree with you that decisions regarding Timmy and Danny were related in '06, Danny's refusal to come off the $25MM over 5 years (per Paul Hamilton) prior to the arbitration award was a significant factor in how those two and the rest of the contracts were tendered/handled. Danny's award was announced a week prior to getting the Connolly deal hammered out.

[tom webster]

Agree with you about Carp's post.

 

While I agree with you that decisions regarding Timmy and Danny were related in '06, Danny's refusal to come off the $25MM over 5 years (per Paul Hamilton) prior to the arbitration award was a significant factor in how those two and the rest of the contracts were tendered/handled. Danny's award was announced a week prior to getting the Connolly deal hammered out.

 

For the record, Danny and his agent deny that Buffalo offered 4 years at $4.5 million. Tim's contract was indeed announced 5 days after Danny's award was announced but it is my belief that their desire to sign Tim prevented them from aggressively getting a deal done with Danny.

[tom webster]

Dang! Line up with your pom poms, Tom. Get ready for it:

 

I was wrong! My assumptions about plus/minus, going back 25 years, have been wrong.

 

Y'know, I'm glad I've been corrected. I'm not sure how I misread that when I went to verify my assumption. Assumptions are often blinding.

 

I stand corrected before you, humbly. Master.

 

But I'm not wrong about the larger point of all this. Not paying Briere 8 million per year was still the right decision. That one I'll hold on to.

 

This and another post where you admit that he is worth $5 million actually put us on the same page, scary but true.

[SabreNod]

This and another post where you admit that he is worth $5 million actually put us on the same page, scary but true.

 

 

Not so scary. This all started when I defended Golisano as a man who generally doesn't get enough respect.

 

We've both been a bit snarky.

 

RE: Sabres' personnel strategy, I think they believe we have to get bigger and tougher. The finesse game lasted one season before the refs started ignoring holding and interference again. Looks like this is the version of the game that's here to stay.

[stenbaro]

This and another post where you admit that he is worth $5 million actually put us on the same page, scary but true.

This is whats its like when worlds collide

[Mike Oxhurtz]

I've been watching some of the games so far. I try not to think about our situation with missing the playoffs. After 2 great seasons, it's very depressing to even think that we're not in it this year. Especially watching the Pens, we were 1 step ahead of them last year. This year the Pens made the right moves, and we made the wrong moves and look at where both teams are at, Simply Depressing!!!! I just hope we can make the right moves this offseason, and we'll be a playoff team again next season.

[X. Benedict]

I've been watching some of the games so far. I try not to think about our situation with missing the playoffs. After 2 great seasons, it's very depressing to even think that we're not in it this year. Especially watching the Pens, we were 1 step ahead of them last year. This year the Pens made the right moves, and we made the wrong moves and look at where both teams are at, Simply Depressing!!!! I just hope we can make the right moves this offseason, and we'll be a playoff team again next season.

 

We'll see with the Pens. I would have thought that the right move would have been adding defense, instead at the deadline they add Hossa. If they hold up, they better hope Montreal goes cold.

[tom webster]

We'll see with the Pens. I would have thought that the right move would have been adding defense, instead at the deadline they add Hossa. If they hold up, they better hope Montreal goes cold.

 

 

I wonder how much of that move was designed to keep him away from Montreal. One thing for sure, they showed how much they value marginal second and third line players with the players they dealt.

[stenbaro]

I wonder how much of that move was designed to keep him away from Montreal. One thing for sure, they showed how much they value marginal second and third line players with the players they dealt.

The Sabres value system must be a bit different...I will give the Sabres credit when due and their college prospects have to be considered the best in recent memory....I really like Gerbe's attitude and Kennedy looks to fit the mold of a streak shooter which is fine by me...My question is how long do they keep them in the minors..Wouldnt you think Collegiate hockey to be on par with AHL hockey?

[inkman]

My question is how long do they keep them in the minors..

Until Connolly gets hurt...