deluca67 Posted April 26, 2008 Report Posted April 26, 2008 I know this wasn't directed at me, but I can answer the question. I agree with Deluca that we can take Drury out since everyone, even the Sabres, knew that we would be better with him, but the deal fell through. As for Briere, we all would agree that we would have been better swapping him for any of those three for this season. However, they will all be on their last years of their contracts, so those mistakes can easily be fixed in short time. Whether taking on Briere for 5-7 years at a high cap hit was the right decision is what is debatable. Some say yes and will continue to as long as he is in the league. Others of us will say no for just as long. We are at an impasse. *Passes the iocane powder* Smell, but do not inhale ... You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is: "Never get involved in a land war in Asia." But, only slightly less well known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian, when death is on the line!"
carpandean Posted April 26, 2008 Report Posted April 26, 2008 You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is: "Never get involved in a land war in Asia." But, only slightly less well known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian, when death is on the line!" Ha ha ha-ha ha! Ha ha ha-ha ha! Ha ha ... :death:
stenbaro Posted April 26, 2008 Report Posted April 26, 2008 LOL, *MY* club? You're the one with the club, my friend. The Danny Danny Danny club! Had you just paid for a jersey or something? My god, this thread is beyond absurd. Yea, the Sabres aren't the same without Briere, you're right. And weren't the same without Drury. And Teppo Numminen. The loss of Teppo might actually have been the most critical loss of the three. They won't be the same without Kalinin, and they won't be the same without Max. The team is always different year to year. What's the point? Roy is a better player than Briere anyway, and two highly-paid, diminutive centers is probably one too many. The league has clearly shifted back the other way, where it's going to remain. I like Briere, too! But Roy is a better player. And the Sabres knew that other key players are coming due... Kripes... Are we Sabres fans or Danny fans? I dont think so..Not even close..Drury was the biggest freeagent loss the Sabres have ever had..BAR NONE..But I agree with ya Between Roy and Briere..But it shouldnt be a comparison between anyone..They are not as good without those players that left..No argument..They could have signed those players with aggresive, smart and persistent negotiating..They put their head in the sand and wished....now they have a mess to clean up..Brought on all by themselves
tom webster Posted April 26, 2008 Report Posted April 26, 2008 First you need to remove Drury from the question. The Sabres wanted him and he decided to leave. To answer the question. I don't want Briere on the roster at $5-6 million regardless of the rest of the roster. If you to put him in place of Max at the $3.5 million I would consider it. My Thornton point still stands a great example of an elite player making the elite play. I see top level players all over the league on the ice at crunch time. The Sabres have two in Pominville and Roy, though they are not elite at this time they are on their way. One of the reasons Detroit is so good again this season is Zetterberg and Datsyuk who play in all situations. If you want more examples look to the dynamic duo in Tampa Bay. Shanahan and Drury on the Rangers. Stastny in Colorado. Brad Richards in Dallas. This is just a small sampling of the NHL's top players who earn their paychecks at both end of the ice. Happen to know his +/- this year and for his career?? You seem to use numbers like this all the time against Danny.
stenbaro Posted April 26, 2008 Report Posted April 26, 2008 Happen to know his +/- this year and for his career?? You seem to use numbers like this all the time against Danny. -57...LOL..Thats funny
Bmwolf21 Posted April 26, 2008 Report Posted April 26, 2008 Richards this year: -27; career: -57 Briere: -22 this year and a -27 for the career.
stenbaro Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 Richards this year: -27; career: -57Briere: -22 this year and a -27 for the career. nothin like sticking your foot in your mouth...What size do you wear errrrr eat..lol.....
Bmwolf21 Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 nothin like sticking your foot in your mouth...What size do you wear errrrr eat..lol..... You or me? :blink:
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 You or me? :blink: I would think he means DeLuca??? WTF? He uses Richards... Gives us Danny haters a bad name! :wallbash: :wallbash:
Bmwolf21 Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 Wasn't someone comparing Pominville to Richards a while back?
deluca67 Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 Happen to know his +/- this year and for his career?? You seem to use numbers like this all the time against Danny. Richards was a minus 44 over the past two season playing for a Tampa Bay team with AHL level goaltending. St Louis was a minus 23 this season and Lecavalier was a minus 17 this season. All three players have one thing in common. They all outclass Briere in every aspect of the game. Philly would drop Briere in a second for a chance at any of the three.
millbank Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 another great game by Marty and another game winning goal by Danny. (last season as Sabre he was plus 17 and 6 game winning goals, the year before plus 3 and 4 game winning goals. Yes he had a tough start as a flyer just as Marty did, both have come up big for them in the final part of season and playoffs. Good going guys. (being clear Danny played as a Sabre four years pre lockout he played two years with a bottom fifth place team , in a mess first hear minus 20 second year minus 7. Post lockout he was plus 3 and plus 17 . )
tasker48b Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 Richards was a minus 44 over the past two season playing for a Tampa Bay team with AHL level goaltending. St Louis was a minus 23 this season and Lecavalier was a minus 17 this season. All three players have one thing in common. They all outclass Briere in every aspect of the game. Philly would drop Briere in a second for a chance at any of the three. St. Louis for Briere would be a fair trade, IMO. Heck, aren't they the same person? Both smaller forwards. Both had to leave the team that drafted them to find their NHL legs. Both born in the mid-seventies. Both from Quebec. Career goals: St Louis has 208 and Briere has 193 (St. Loiuis has played approx. 40 more career games).
stenbaro Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 You or me? :blink: not you ..sorry,...I find it amusing that when you memorialize your opinion on a board and your example is a little off..It happens we all do it but its nice to be the jumper on and not the jumped on...Ray Finkle is the best as far as catching mistakes....His catches are classic...
SabreNod Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 I dont think so..Not even close..Drury was the biggest freeagent loss the Sabres have ever had..BAR NONE..But I agree with ya Between Roy and Briere..But it shouldnt be a comparison between anyone..They are not as good without those players that left..No argument..They could have signed those players with aggresive, smart and persistent negotiating..They put their head in the sand and wished....now they have a mess to clean up..Brought on all by themselves Yea, Drury etc. I've always agreed with that. That was tough. But not having Teppo had a huge impact. How many goals did the Sabres score this season, and how did that number rank? We were horrible defensively. We lacked leadership and stability and had to rely on the surprisingly steady play of two rookies late to get us through. The 07-08 Sabres failure to make the playoffs was about defense first, then a goalie who wasn't the same guy, largely because of point 1, secondarily because our backup was a sieve and Lindy lost confidence in him, leaving Miller to play far more than a man that skinny should play. Miller can sweat a tenth of his weight in a night.
Bmwolf21 Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 not you ..sorry,...I find it amusing that when you memorialize your opinion on a board and your example is a little off..It happens we all do it but its nice to be the jumper on and not the jumped on...Ray Finkle is the best as far as catching mistakes....His catches are classic... No biggie, I don't usually try to jump on someone's mistakes to show them up or anything like that - unless they are being completely obnoxious and acting like a jackass. I just like that most of our debates are intense, informed discussions and want to make sure everyone is looking at the same numbers/facts/whatever, so if I can find something that clarifies, explains or puts something into context, I'll usually add it for everyone's benefit.
tom webster Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 Richards was a minus 44 over the past two season playing for a Tampa Bay team with AHL level goaltending. St Louis was a minus 23 this season and Lecavalier was a minus 17 this season. All three players have one thing in common. They all outclass Briere in every aspect of the game. Philly would drop Briere in a second for a chance at any of the three. What it points out is how irrelevant +/- are except when you need them to make your point. For the record, Richards has been a -2 in the regular season for a Dallas team including 7 out of 12 games in the regular season. In the playoffs, he has 1 goal, 4 assists and is a whopping +2 in 7 games.
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 What it points out is how irrelevant +/- are except when you need them to make your point. For the record, Richards has been a -2 in the regular season for a Dallas team including 7 out of 12 games in the regular season. In the playoffs, he has 1 goal, 4 assists and is a whopping +2 in 7 games. Shoot me but... I am still a firm believer that no matter how many goals ones scores, you still have to factor in the guys +/- number. Even if a guy scores 100 goals and is a -99... In my book only one goal did any good! No different if the guy scores 2 goals and is a -1... Again shoot me... The guy with a -99 and 100 goals is a bigger liability out there! Really! D is what wins in the end!
tom webster Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 Yea, Drury etc. I've always agreed with that. That was tough. But not having Teppo had a huge impact. How many goals did the Sabres score this season, and how did that number rank? We were horrible defensively. We lacked leadership and stability and had to rely on the surprisingly steady play of two rookies late to get us through. The 07-08 Sabres failure to make the playoffs was about defense first, then a goalie who wasn't the same guy, largely because of point 1, secondarily because our backup was a sieve and Lindy lost confidence in him, leaving Miller to play far more than a man that skinny should play. Miller can sweat a tenth of his weight in a night. You continue to underestimate the loss of leadership, the players that want the puck at the end of the game and in the shootout. Management's biggest failure was not recognizing the need for some sort of veteram leadership tp replace what they lost. Its no accident that they were so awful in one goal games and in the shootout. The offense stats are misleading, there were too many games where they made average goalies look like Bernie Parent.
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 You continue to underestimate the loss of leadership, the players that want the puck at the end of the game and in the shootout. Management's biggest failure was not recognizing the need for some sort of veteram leadership tp replace what they lost. Its no accident that they were so awful in one goal games and in the shootout. The offense stats are misleading, there were too many games where they made average goalies look like Bernie Parent. I don't think I do... Because to me leadership is more than what you say... I do agree that your point is critical. A true leader would have NOT been offended like they (CD/DB) were... They aren't even captains on their current teams. I might agree more with you if they played in BFLO YET BFLO had another captain. They abandoned their team and players in my book. A captain ALWAYS goes down with his ship! No matter how bad the orderd from headquarters is. In the end BFLO needs to look elsewhere.
tom webster Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 Shoot me but... I am still a firm believer that no matter how many goals ones scores, you still have to factor in the guys +/- number. Even if a guy scores 100 goals and is a -99... In my book only one goal did any good! No different if the guy scores 2 goals and is a -1... Again shoot me... The guy with a -99 and 100 goals is a bigger liability out there! Really! D is what wins in the end! You need a better understanding of +/- and the fact that since the lockout the power play has become such a factor. Plus minus figures throughout the league are lower than they have been in the recent past. Consider, if your star player plays against the other teams top line and constantly breaks even but because of him your power play in first in the conference and scores 20 to 30 more goals than the tenth place team and because of it, you make the playoffs. +/- can also be very misleading. Briere was a -3 in game six of the Washingtom series and wasn't directly involved in any of those 3 goals. It works the other way, too. It is why +/- is only used when it fits somebody's argument.
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 You need a better understanding of +/- and the fact that since the lockout the power play has become such a factor. Plus minus figures throughout the league are lower than they have been in the recent past. Consider, if your star player plays against the other teams top line and constantly breaks even but because of him your power play in first in the conference and scores 20 to 30 more goals than the tenth place team and because of it, you make the playoffs. +/- can also be very misleading. Briere was a -3 in game six of the Washingtom series and wasn't directly involved in any of those 3 goals. It works the other way, too. It is why +/- is only used when it fits somebody's argument. Danny was on the ice when MTL scored their shorty in game one. Philly should be up 2-0 now.
nfreeman Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 Yea, Drury etc. I've always agreed with that. That was tough. But not having Teppo had a huge impact. How many goals did the Sabres score this season, and how did that number rank? We were horrible defensively. We lacked leadership and stability and had to rely on the surprisingly steady play of two rookies late to get us through. The 07-08 Sabres failure to make the playoffs was about defense first, then a goalie who wasn't the same guy, largely because of point 1, secondarily because our backup was a sieve and Lindy lost confidence in him, leaving Miller to play far more than a man that skinny should play. Miller can sweat a tenth of his weight in a night. I agree that Teppo was a big loss, especially when coupled with the losses of Drury & Briere. I also agree that Miller got worn down and didn't play that well down the stretch, and this really hurt (although I think pretty much the whole team fell apart down the stretch other than 3-4 guys). However, I completely disagree that the offense was fine this year and the problem lay with the defense. I know we scored a lot of goals this year, but they weren't timely and they weren't against good teams. We lost 30 games this year in which we scored 2 goals or fewer. Between Jan. 1 and March 20, we lost 12 out of 14 games against the top 5 teams in the East. It wasn't scoring we were missing -- it was leadership, mental toughness, and CLUTCH scoring (like, for example, Briere's goal tonight vs. the Habs). That's why we fell apart this year, and that's where keeping Briere would have made a big difference. You continue to underestimate the loss of leadership, the players that want the puck at the end of the game and in the shootout.Management's biggest failure was not recognizing the need for some sort of veteram leadership tp replace what they lost. Its no accident that they were so awful in one goal games and in the shootout. The offense stats are misleading, there were too many games where they made average goalies look like Bernie Parent . Bingo. I don't think I do... Because to me leadership is more than what you say... I do agree that your point is critical. A true leader would have NOT been offended like they (CD/DB) were... They aren't even captains on their current teams. I might agree more with you if they played in BFLO YET BFLO had another captain. They abandoned their team and players in my book. A captain ALWAYS goes down with his ship! No matter how bad the orderd from headquarters is. In the end BFLO needs to look elsewhere. Respectfully, this just isn't realistic. This guys play the game for money. If the Sabres had offered them the league minimum, would they have not been leaders if they had rejected that offer? And it's pretty uncommon for a FA to join a team and immediately be made captain -- it's pretty much a slap at the players already on the team. I'd expect Drury to be an alternate next year, since Jagr will probably be gone, and possibly captain if Shanahan is gone too. And if Briere's playoff tear continues and if Philly beats the Habs and if Philly lets Jason Smith go? Briere will probably be an alternate too.
Bmwolf21 Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 +/- can also be very misleading. One needs look no further than Vanek's +47 last year for proof of that.
nfreeman Posted April 27, 2008 Report Posted April 27, 2008 I think I said about 6 pages ago that this thread really has legs...does anyone know what the record is for # of pages?
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