Danny Briere 2 goals last night

[stenbaro]

Assuming the Sabres would have made it to the shootout? Adding a career minus player would probably hurt more than help.

I think they lost a few more this yr than last on the shootout..However I am stayin out of this argument I was all for letting him go..I just assumed they would have signed Drury..He wouldve def helped get us to the playoffs..He hurt us just goin to Philly..But he is not the sole answer and never would be to solve the Sabes problems..He wouldve lessened the blow and we probably make the dance...I just remember against the Sens watchin him rush in across the blueline only to skate backwards to the boards and fire a 1 in a million shot from the worst possible angle a whole lot...Made me sick...

 

I will say this about his plus minus..Throw it away..He scored a ton on the powerplay and it dont count..No doubt he is no Craig Ramsey but that isnt what they wanted from him..I would rather them go give a Datsyuk or a Stastny that money if ever available..Problem with all this is all these teams passed us and there is no freeagents out there this yr capabe of turning this around..Everyone else got better and we helped em..Now we need to wait for our young ones to develop and add..We still need a leader..

[tom webster]

Wouldn't it make more sense to put that money towards players that can play all facets of the game? If you are going to pay elite status money to a player shouldn't you get value for the money? Shouldn't that $5-7 million dollar player be on the ice in the final minute when you are up a goal as well as down a goal.

 

We're talking top level money. In the final minutes of the Sharks vs Flames series there was an elite play made by an elite player. Joe Thornton went into the corner against Jarome Iginla. Thornton won the battle and cleared the puck to help preserve the victory and the series. Thornton makes $6.7 million this year. How can you possibly justify paying a player anywhere near that when that player, Briere, wouldn't even have been on the ice. Even if he were on the ice he wouldn't even have considered going into the corner to battle any player let alone a player like Iginla. That is not the type of player the Sabres need. That is not the type of captain the Sabres need. Small Market Economics 101 - you have maximize every dollar you can. Spending top level money without getting top level results is financial suicide and sends the Sabres back on the path they were on pre-Golisano era.

 

1) Some of the great players in the league weren't out there for the end of the game. The Canadians, for example were loaded with "elite" level talent throughout the years but when it came to crunch time it was players like Carbineau, Jarvis, Gainey, Skrudland, etc.

 

2) $5-6 million is not elite level. For the one thousandth time, few if any of us advocate paying Danny what Philadelphia did.

 

3) It is amusing that you reference Thornton given his past history of playoff ineptness.

 

4) Of course one would prefer that perfect player good in all facets of the game. The fact of the matter is, you can't find twenty of those players willing to play for $2.5 million each. So, like everything else in life, you make compromises. You decide what kind of team would most likely win in the current climate and you build accordingly. Given the importance of special teams and shoot outs in the current league, players like Briere come with a premium attached. That is why the best teams are always greater than the sum of their parts.

 

5) You know how I feel about the small market crap. Its only small market because demographics can't include Canadian market. While their is no doubt that the top five or six teams hold a huge advantage, revenue sharing and the passion of this market make Buffalo small market when the moniker fits the argument. In the NFL, Buffalo small market. In the NHL, Buffalo mid market.

[ExiledInIllinois]

You waste your time in this debate. It is indeed sad that so many given the class that Briere showed as a Sabre, in dealing with team mates, media , fans alike , plus his on ice contributions being part of arguably some of the most exciting Sabre teams ever, simply cannot acknowledge his current success and feel good for the man . Frankly I find it shameful .

 

See that is the funny thing Mill... I don't mind him having success and wish him and Marty with the Flyers whoop the Habs (because they have assclown fans, true) ... Strange motive, I agree.

 

Though... I never seen Danny like that... I always felt forced to love him because he was a Sabre. Like I said last year, if I didn't love the Sabres so much or was fan of another team... I would have really hated the Sabres and their type of players.

 

I think that is changing, though... Maybe they can have a team I love both ways.

 

I just don't see it like you Mill... I never seen the classy side and really saw it brewing during the good times last year... I think the exact opposite way.

 

I do wish him luck though... I don't think he deserves it and is honorable enough.

 

Maybe I am too much a loyal fan of the "team" and not the player!

 

Now Marty... He really deserves it!

 

I say this respectfully.

[Mike Oxhurtz]

This paragraph illustrates that the two "sides" of this debate aren't as far apart as it seems.

 

Some points that we all can agree on:

1) The team was missing a veteran presence without Briere or Drury.

2) The team was missing a second, reliable top-two center without Briere or Drury (Connolly could be, but was injured too much; Goose is a third/fourth-line center, Hecht is a top-line winger, neither is a top-line center.)

3) The team was missing a physical presence on defense.

4) Management made some mistakes in their efforts to keep Chris to solve (1) and (2); right decision, poor execution.

5) Management made mistakes in relying on Connolly to fill (2) and just Teppo to fill (1).

6) Management made a mistake in doing nothing to address (3).

7) Briere is a very good offensive forward, who has a great shot, is good at setting up other players and is great on the PP/SOs.

8) Briere is not a great two-way forward, who has some defensive deficiencies.

9) Briere would have been an upgrade to our top-two line centers this year, because we only had a second real one half the time (see #2.)

10) Management should have put money toward (1), (2) and (3), likely through trading off some dead weight (though, I imagine this is easier said than done.)

 

Where we disagree:

1) Was Danny the best use of the money to fill (1) and (2)?

 

The answer to this question depends a lot on a person's assessment of the levels in (7) and (8), and their relative worth to the team. Nobody here will debate that Danny has great offensive skills, just like nobody here will suggest that he will ever win a Selke Trophy. It is hard to find players with the level of offensive skills that he possesses and great defensive skills, though they do exist.

 

The answer also depends a lot on the amount that we actually could have gotten Danny for at the time when we would have signed him. I would still contend that when $5 x 5 was on the table, nobody felt that he was worth that much. By the time people began to think that he was worth that much, his price was higher. However, nobody here knows for sure and we can speculate all we want, but it doesn't make either opinion more correct.

 

Excellent post!!!

[millbank]

Have read every sort of rationalization and twist ,now you telling you thought him a sleezeball. On you all go. :)

 

 

 

See that is the funny thing Mill... I don't mind him having success and wish him and Marty with the Flyers whoop the Habs (because they have assclown fans, true) ... Strange motive, I agree.

 

Though... I never seen Danny like that... I always felt forced to love him because he was a Sabre. Like I said last year, if I didn't love the Sabres so much or was fan of another team... I would have really hated the Sabres and their type of players.

 

I think that is changing, though... Maybe they can have a team I love both ways.

 

I just don't see it like you Mill... I never seen the classy side and really saw it brewing during the good times last year... I think the exact opposite way.

 

I do wish him luck though... I don't think he deserves it and is honorable enough.

 

Maybe I am too much a loyal fan of the "team" and not the player!

 

Now Marty... He really deserves it!

 

I say this respectfully.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Have read every sort of rationalization and twist ,now you telling you thought him a sleezeball. On you all go. :)

 

You heard me last year, no? I made it perfectly known that if I wasn't such in love with the "Sabres"... I would have despised them.

[Bmwolf21]

You heard me last year, no? I made it perfectly known that if I wasn't such in love with the "Sabres"... I would have despised them.

I understand what you're saying...I was never a big fan of Danny - I liked what he brought in terms of offense, but there was something I couldn't put my finger on that really bugged me about him - on the ice it was the diving, off the ice he seemed to always be chirping about the FO and what they need to do, but I never felt like he wanted to work with them to keep the team together. His interviews and comments about the business side of the game always seemed too mercenary to me.

 

Oh well, he's gone now, and it gives me another reason to dislike the Flyers.

[carpandean]

1) Some of the great players in the league weren't out there for the end of the game.

Just for the record: tonight, both Chris Drury and Scott Gomez were on the ice for shifts of the final PK (less than three minutes left in a tie game), as well as for the final minute of the game when they were trailing by one. Guess who else was on the ice for both: Sidney Crosby. He was there on the PP to take the lead and on the ice for the "PK" (6-on-5 w/ EN) to hold that lead. Crosby and Gomez also have higher points/game in these playoffs than Briere.

 

Just sayin' ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Disclaimer: I know comparing Briere to Crosby isn't fair and I mostly added him for fun.

[ExiledInIllinois]

I understand what you're saying...I was never a big fan of Danny - I liked what he brought in terms of offense, but there was something I couldn't put my finger on that really bugged me about him - on the ice it was the diving, off the ice he seemed to always be chirping about the FO and what they need to do, but I never felt like he wanted to work with them to keep the team together. His interviews and comments about the business side of the game always seemed too mercenary to me.

 

Oh well, he's gone now, and it gives me another reason to dislike the Flyers.

 

Don't get me wrong BM... I loved him when he scored and BFLO won... Call me two-faced... Just look how the NHL went back after the lockout... Something has to give? IMO, I trust the front office to understand that even if they do mistep at times.

[Bmwolf21]

Don't get me wrong BM... I loved him when he scored and BFLO won... Call me two-faced... Just look how the NHL went back after the lockout... Something has to give? IMO, I trust the front office to understand that even if they do mistep at times.

No I understand, that's how I am as well - I liked what he brought in terms of offense or scoring or shootouts, but I never really liked him as a Sabre and was more than fine with them letting him walk in favor of Dru. I was much, much, much more pissed that they screwed up the Drury negotiations and now we have to watch him in the second round in a frigging Rangers' jersey... :wallbash:

[ExiledInIllinois]

No I understand, that's how I am as well - I liked what he brought in terms of offense or scoring or shootouts, but I never really liked him as a Sabre and was more than fine with them letting him walk in favor of Dru. I was much, much, much more pissed that they screwed up the Drury negotiations and now we have to watch him in the second round in a frigging Rangers' jersey... :wallbash:

 

Same here... I won't openly admit it... :oops: guess I just did!

 

That is my story and I am sticking to it!

 

;) ;)

[deluca67]

Just for the record: tonight, both Chris Drury and Scott Gomez were on the ice for shifts of the final PK (less than three minutes left in a tie game), as well as for the final minute of the game when they were trailing by one. Guess who else was on the ice for both: Sidney Crosby. He was there on the PP to take the lead and on the ice for the "PK" (6-on-5 w/ EN) to hold that lead. Crosby and Gomez also have higher points/game in these playoffs than Briere.

 

Just sayin' ...

Disclaimer: I know comparing Briere to Crosby isn't fair and I mostly added him for fun.

Great players play in big moments. When the game is on the line and your $50 million alleged star is on the bench you have question the wisdom of that contract and the heart of that player.

[tom webster]

Great players play in big moments. When the game is on the line and your $50 million alleged star is on the bench you have question the wisdom of that contract and the heart of that player.

 

Nice how you ignore posts you have no answer for. Do you think the French Connection or Luce, Ramsay and Gare were out there at the end when Buffalo was ahead?

[tom webster]

Just for the record: tonight, both Chris Drury and Scott Gomez were on the ice for shifts of the final PK (less than three minutes left in a tie game), as well as for the final minute of the game when they were trailing by one. Guess who else was on the ice for both: Sidney Crosby. He was there on the PP to take the lead and on the ice for the "PK" (6-on-5 w/ EN) to hold that lead. Crosby and Gomez also have higher points/game in these playoffs than Briere.

 

Just sayin' ...

Disclaimer: I know comparing Briere to Crosby isn't fair and I mostly added him for fun.

 

Didn't say that all great players weren't on the ice at the end.When was the last Ovechkin killed a penalty or was out to "ice" the game. According to DeLuca, that must make him a $100 million question mark!

[tom webster]

I understand what you're saying...I was never a big fan of Danny - I liked what he brought in terms of offense, but there was something I couldn't put my finger on that really bugged me about him - on the ice it was the diving, off the ice he seemed to always be chirping about the FO and what they need to do, but I never felt like he wanted to work with them to keep the team together. His interviews and comments about the business side of the game always seemed too mercenary to me.

 

Oh well, he's gone now, and it gives me another reason to dislike the Flyers.

 

You sure you weren't on Second Life or some other internet site. I would like to see even one link were he sounded like a mercenary or was "chirping" about the FO. I understand if you didn't like him as a player, but you won't find a nicer guy or a guy who was more disappointed that the team didn't want to keep him.

[deluca67]

Nice how you ignore posts you have no answer for. Do you think the French Connection or Luce, Ramsay and Gare were out there at the end when Buffalo was ahead?

Do you mean that point about the Habs not using their Hall of Fame defensive talent instead of their Hall of Fame offensive talent? I see you follow it up with another example from 30 years ago. In case you haven't noticed it's now 2008. The game has changed both on the ice and the economics. In todays game you need to elite players to be all around players. They need to play at both ends and they need to play in all the big moments.

 

Your OV point was funny. At 23 years I wouldn't expect him to be out there. Similar to Vanek, they both have a lot of learning to do. I do expect both of which would be that all around player at some point in their careers. OV, unlike Briere brings a huge physical game to the rink. While Briere is a one dimensional player OV can beat you and make you pay a physical price. He is also a presence in the defensive zone. He has improved his +/- by +47 while Briere's dropped by -39. And before anyone starts crying about power play points, Briere and OV each had 37 power play points.

[carpandean]

When was the last Ovechkin killed a penalty or was out to "ice" the game.

I didn't check PKs (I believe you are right that he doesn't play that much), but he is definitely out there to "ice" the game:

 

Game 7: on ice for last minute of regulation in tie game

Game 6: on ice for over a minute starting with about two-minutes left, when leading by 2

Game 5: on ice for final 45 seconds of game when leading by 1

Game 4: on ice for final 38 seconds of regulation in tie game

Game 3: out for a 1:27, starting at 17:28, until Flyers scored ENer to go up by 3.

Game 2: on ice for final 1:39 when trailing by 2

Game 1: on ice for final 1:01 when leading by 1

 

Obviously, Game 1 and 5 are the clearest examples, but he took a long shift in Game 6 with less than two minutes left, so I'd say that counts, too. The rest of the games, they were either tied or losing at the end of regulation, so they don't fit, but he was out there in those, too.

[deluca67]

I didn't check PKs (I believe you are right that he doesn't play that much), but he is definitely out there to "ice" the game:

 

Game 7: on ice for last minute of regulation in tie game

Game 6: on ice for over a minute starting with about two-minutes left, when leading by 2

Game 5: on ice for final 45 seconds of game when leading by 1

Game 4: on ice for final 38 seconds of regulation in tie game

Game 3: out for a 1:27, starting at 17:28, until Flyers scored ENer to go up by 3.

Game 2: on ice for final 1:39 when trailing by 2

Game 1: on ice for final 1:01 when leading by 1

 

Obviously, Game 1 and 5 are the clearest examples, but he took a long shift in Game 6 with less than two minutes left, so I'd say that counts, too. The rest of the games, they were either tied or losing at the end of regulation, so they don't fit, but he was out there in those, too.

It was clearly a stretch by TW to even involve OV in a discussion regarding B-Rod. OV has already surpassed Briere as a player and will be a relevant force in the NHL for years to come.

[Bmwolf21]

You sure you weren't on Second Life or some other internet site. I would like to see even one link were he sounded like a mercenary or was "chirping" about the FO. I understand if you didn't like him as a player, but you won't find a nicer guy or a guy who was more disappointed that the team didn't want to keep him.

I'll ignore the unnecessary smartass comment about "Second Life some other internet site" for now and just say that I honestly couldn't care less if he stopped to help old ladies cross the street before going to the arena. I don't have the time nor the inclination to go back two, three years and find clips and interviews that back up the general feeling I got about a player. Some guys say things that don't sit just right, and when you pair them with their business-side actions, they stink even more. That was the case for me. I (and apparently a lot of other fans) got the impression that he wanted to keep the team together - as long as he got his.

 

Most people don't have the luxury of dealing with athletes away from the arena and media, so I'm sure many are great guys, no matter how they sound in the press. I have had that privilege in other sports (but not with the Sabres or NHL players) so I know that some guys are great guys to deal with no matter what, while others are jackasses both on and off the field. But perception is reality, and for me, his media image painted a picture of a mercenary.

[tom webster]

It was clearly a stretch by TW to even involve OV in a discussion regarding B-Rod. OV has already surpassed Briere as a player and will be a relevant force in the NHL for years to come.

 

You are right OV was probably a stretch, but not much more then using Thornton as an example of clutch playoff play. Bad choice of examples not withstanding, the point being is that there very few elite level players playing in all situations.

 

Furthermore, you both continue to use the TG method of responding to the question of whether the team would be better if he was here. I didn't want him here at Philly money. I ask again, would this team be better off having Briere and Drury at 5 to 6 million each instead of having Connolly, Max and Ales?

[SabreNod]

Oh, you couldn't let it go, could you? You, SDS, DeLuca and the rest of your little club. Well, for the record, the Sabres aren't the same without him. That is to say, they aren't going to the conference finals this year, are they? (and yes, I know, it's not just him that we lost from last year's team, blah blah blah).

 

Again: if Briere scores in the next game, I will not post immediately saying how great he is, etc., but this wave of posts that arises after every game in which he doesn't score is just ridiculous.

 

 

LOL, *MY* club? You're the one with the club, my friend. The Danny Danny Danny club! Had you just paid for a jersey or something? My god, this thread is beyond absurd.

 

 

Yea, the Sabres aren't the same without Briere, you're right. And weren't the same without Drury. And Teppo Numminen. The loss of Teppo might actually have been the most critical loss of the three. They won't be the same without Kalinin, and they won't be the same without Max. The team is always different year to year. What's the point? Roy is a better player than Briere anyway, and two highly-paid, diminutive centers is probably one too many. The league has clearly shifted back the other way, where it's going to remain. I like Briere, too! But Roy is a better player. And the Sabres knew that other key players are coming due...

 

Kripes...

 

Are we Sabres fans or Danny fans?

[tom webster]

I'll ignore the unnecessary smartass comment about "Second Life some other internet site" for now and just say that I honestly couldn't care less if he stopped to help old ladies cross the street before going to the arena. I don't have the time nor the inclination to go back two, three years and find clips and interviews that back up the general feeling I got about a player. Some guys say things that don't sit just right, and when you pair them with their business-side actions, they stink even more. That was the case for me. I (and apparently a lot of other fans) got the impression that he wanted to keep the team together - as long as he got his.

 

Most people don't have the luxury of dealing with athletes away from the arena and media, so I'm sure many are great guys, no matter how they sound in the press. I have had that privilege in other sports (but not with the Sabres or NHL players) so I know that some guys are great guys to deal with no matter what, while others are jackasses both on and off the field. But perception is reality, and for me, his media image painted a picture of a mercenary.

 

I apologize, I just have come to expect mostly rational arguments from you and I had no idea people like yourself had those impressions of Briere. I dismiss Exiled and DeLuca and guys like that, but while I understand the arguments against him as a player, I thought it was rather universally believed that he was genuinely a great guy and team leader.

I can't remember ever hear him saying anything that even remotely sounded mercenary to me. In fact, I am more offended by the way TG and LQ continually tell us how grateful we should be to TG. When I asked for a link, its because I am generally interested in what you took as shots at the FO and such, nit that I was questioning their authenticity.

Once again, I apologize for offending you, it wasn't intentional.

[deluca67]

You are right OV was probably a stretch, but not much more then using Thornton as an example of clutch playoff play. Bad choice of examples not withstanding, the point being is that there very few elite level players playing in all situations.

 

Furthermore, you both continue to use the TG method of responding to the question of whether the team would be better if he was here. I didn't want him here at Philly money. I ask again, would this team be better off having Briere and Drury at 5 to 6 million each instead of having Connolly, Max and Ales?

First you need to remove Drury from the question. The Sabres wanted him and he decided to leave. To answer the question. I don't want Briere on the roster at $5-6 million regardless of the rest of the roster. If you to put him in place of Max at the $3.5 million I would consider it.

 

My Thornton point still stands a great example of an elite player making the elite play. I see top level players all over the league on the ice at crunch time. The Sabres have two in Pominville and Roy, though they are not elite at this time they are on their way. One of the reasons Detroit is so good again this season is Zetterberg and Datsyuk who play in all situations. If you want more examples look to the dynamic duo in Tampa Bay. Shanahan and Drury on the Rangers. Stastny in Colorado. Brad Richards in Dallas. This is just a small sampling of the NHL's top players who earn their paychecks at both end of the ice.

[Bmwolf21]

I apologize, I just have come to expect mostly rational arguments from you and I had no idea people like yourself had those impressions of Briere. I dismiss Exiled and DeLuca and guys like that, but while I understand the arguments against him as a player, I thought it was rather universally believed that he was genuinely a great guy and team leader.

I can't remember ever hear him saying anything that even remotely sounded mercenary to me. In fact, I am more offended by the way TG and LQ continually tell us how grateful we should be to TG. When I asked for a link, its because I am generally interested in what you took as shots at the FO and such, nit that I was questioning their authenticity.

Once again, I apologize for offending you, it wasn't intentional.

No biggie, just was surprised a little to see your response, given our usual discourse.

 

It might not have been any specific comments that he made - it started with the offseason interviews where his attitude seemed very challenging toward the front office to "keep the team together" but then his own contract actions seemed to imply that he wanted them to what I can only imagine was spend to the cap to keep everyone around, but at the same time he was "going to get his."

 

FWIW, there were some interesting debates on this board about Danny and his impending FA and his image as a me-first mercenary. You'd have to spend some time going through the archives, but I can assure you that guys like myself, EiI and DeLuca weren't the only ones who were rubbed the wrong way by some of DB's interviews and comments. He seemed to get better with his media comments (much more diplomatic, IMO) as the 06-07 season started and rolled on, but between the 05-06 campaign and the start of 06-07 he seemed to stick his foot in his mouth quite a bit regarding contact talks, etc.

[carpandean]

I didn't want him here at Philly money. I ask again, would this team be better off having Briere and Drury at 5 to 6 million each instead of having Connolly, Max and Ales?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I can answer the question. I agree with Deluca that we can take Drury out since everyone, even the Sabres, knew that we would be better with him, but the deal fell through. As for Briere, we all would agree that we would have been better swapping him for any of those three for this season. However, they will all be on their last years of their contracts, so those mistakes can easily be fixed in short time. Whether taking on Briere for 5-7 years at a high cap hit was the right decision is what is debatable. Some say yes and will continue to as long as he is in the league. Others of us will say no for just as long.

 

We are at an impasse.

 

*Passes the iocane powder*

 

Smell, but do not inhale ...