Danny Briere 2 goals last night

[tom webster]

Tom: Move on.

 

 

I have moved on. If you look back, I have not once posted something to the effect of see, I told you so. All of my posts have been in response to someone else's post. I have even said that for all their mistakes, management deserves a chance to prove themselves this off season. However, I will continue to respond when someone like yourself take liberties with the truth. I do not mean this as an attack, but you, like some others have a tendency to post things that you state as fact but have no basis in fact. The team chose to go with Drury, Connolly and Roy as their centers. So far we know that they erred on Drury, either in assuming the deal was done or otherwise, and they took a calculated risks on Tim that has so far been a disaster. That said, there is no reason why Drury, Briere and Roy could not all still be here with reasonable, cap-friendly contracts. For you to posts that Roy and Briere preclude each other, is just not correct. It may not have been prudent to keep both, which may be your opinion, but it wasn't impossible to keep both.

[K-9]

... That said, there is no reason why Drury, Briere and Roy could not all still be here with reasonable, cap-friendly contracts. For you to posts that Roy and Briere preclude each other, is just not correct. It may not have been prudent to keep both, which may be your opinion, but it wasn't impossible to keep both.

 

You can't make that statement in a vacuum. That is you are completely ignoring the Sabres' business model. Whether we like it or not (and I don't) they WON'T spend to the cap if it means they don't break even. By their own admission then, it WAS impossible for management to keep both Briere and Roy.

 

That said, I wonder if Briere were younger if they would have pulled the trigger. Management has clearly shown they'll pay long term deals for younger stars on the rise IF they're convinced of it.

 

GO SABRES!!!

[tom webster]

You can't make that statement in a vacuum. That is you are completely ignoring the Sabres' business model. Whether we like it or not (and I don't) they WON'T spend to the cap if it means they don't break even. By their own admission then, it WAS impossible for management to keep both Briere and Roy.

 

That said, I wonder if Briere were younger if they would have pulled the trigger. Management has clearly shown they'll pay long term deals for younger stars on the rise IF they're convinced of it.

 

GO SABRES!!!

 

First my point is that they chose, whether its because of the business model or not, it is their choice. I don't agree with that choice, but I can't argue with that part of the statement.

Secondly, however, they could have had Briere, Drury and Roy under their business model if they discarded Max and Tim and signed Danny and Chris when they had a chance to cap friendly deals. Admittedly it is using hind sight, but my main point has always been that managements greatest shortcoming has been mis=reading the market, which was supposedly TG and Dan Dipofi's strength.

[calti]

I can't speak for Tom, but as long as there are posters out there taking gratuitous (and, IMHO, nonsensical) shots at Briere, while he leads the NHL in playoff scoring for the last 3 years at the same time that the team I really care about misses the playoffs due to management incompetence, I will respond.

Exactly Freeman....People have lost their senses with the silliness about Briere--our best and most proven player for the last couple of years and a playoff stud---who has just continued his sensational play this year in the playoffs for Philly. Big coincidence that the Sabres went from best in points to out of the playoffs--and that Philly went from out of the playoffs to the second round so far: And that Briere leads the entire playoffs in scoring.---These shots at Briere are not only hysterical and non-sensical but sad.

[deluca67]

Indeed.

 

However, I'm pretty confident this thread will keep going strong as long as the Flyers are in the playoffs. And if Drury and/or Soupy come up big in their series? Get ready for more more more.

Which will be about 4 -5 more games. Montreal is a far better team than Washington. If Washington was in a stronger division they wouldn't have even made the playoffs.

[stenbaro]

Indeed.

 

However, I'm pretty confident this thread will keep going strong as long as the Flyers are in the playoffs. And if Drury and/or Soupy come up big in their series? Get ready for more more more.

Speaking of the soupmeister

 

[stenbaro]

You can't make that statement in a vacuum. That is you are completely ignoring the Sabres' business model. Whether we like it or not (and I don't) they WON'T spend to the cap if it means they don't break even. By their own admission then, it WAS impossible for management to keep both Briere and Roy.

 

That said, I wonder if Briere were younger if they would have pulled the trigger. Management has clearly shown they'll pay long term deals for younger stars on the rise IF they're convinced of it.

 

GO SABRES!!!

My business model says's that if the Sabres dont acquire a Captain type person this yr my hard earned dollars wont be spent on them..LOL

[carpandean]

My business model says's that if the Sabres dont acquire a Captain type person this yr my hard earned dollars wont be spent on them..LOL

Well, they weren't going to, but after reading your post, they have bumped their self-imposed budget by $3 million so that they can afford one. :nana:

 

 

 

I can't believe that nobody has jumped in here with a "0G, 0A, -1" yet.

[SDS]

Well, they weren't going to, but after reading your post, they have bumped their self-imposed budget by $3 million so that they can afford one. :nana:

I can't believe that nobody has jumped in here with a "0G, 0A, -1" yet.

 

after realizing he scored 3 goals in 16 games last playoffs, in what could only be described as a "Post-Season of Dreams" by any measure - I've decided to cut him some slack. I mean, who could ever followup a 3 goal in 16 game performance? #%^$#!ing legendary man. Legendary. <_>

[deluca67]

Well, they weren't going to, but after reading your post, they have bumped their self-imposed budget by $3 million so that they can afford one. :nana:

I can't believe that nobody has jumped in here with a "0G, 0A, -1" yet.

You can add 2 for 7 on face-offs to that stat line. :thumbsup:

[tasker48b]

You can add 2 for 7 on face-offs to that stat line. :thumbsup:

 

 

maybe a mod can rename the thread title to that?

 

I picked Briere in the Sportsnet.ca hockey pool i'm in .... that'll be the kiss of death for him in round 2 for sure.

[rbochan]

You can add 2 for 7 on face-offs to that stat line. :thumbsup:

But were those the only two face-offs he wasn't kicked out of last night?

[SabreNod]

after realizing he scored 3 goals in 16 games last playoffs, in what could only be described as a "Post-Season of Dreams" by any measure - I've decided to cut him some slack. I mean, who could ever followup a 3 goal in 16 game performance? #%^$#!ing legendary man. Legendary. <_<

 

 

But Scott, the Sabres aren't the same without him! Danny Danny Danny Danny Danny!

 

Danny!

[nfreeman]

But Scott, the Sabres aren't the same without him! Danny Danny Danny Danny Danny!

 

Danny!

 

Oh, you couldn't let it go, could you? You, SDS, DeLuca and the rest of your little club. Well, for the record, the Sabres aren't the same without him. That is to say, they aren't going to the conference finals this year, are they? (and yes, I know, it's not just him that we lost from last year's team, blah blah blah).

 

Again: if Briere scores in the next game, I will not post immediately saying how great he is, etc., but this wave of posts that arises after every game in which he doesn't score is just ridiculous.

[deluca67]

Oh, you couldn't let it go, could you? You, SDS, DeLuca and the rest of your little club. Well, for the record, the Sabres aren't the same without him. That is to say, they aren't going to the conference finals this year, are they? (and yes, I know, it's not just him that we lost from last year's team, blah blah blah).

 

Again: if Briere scores in the next game, I will not post immediately saying how great he is, etc., but this wave of posts that arises after every game in which he doesn't score is just ridiculous.

nfreeman, you just don't get it. They wouldn't have been the same with him. Even at the legendary $25 million over 5 years the Sabres can't afford to spend that much money on a one dimensional player like Briere. When Briere doesn't score he brings nothing else to the table. He is not physical and plays zero defense. Sure, he is great on the power play. Spending from $25-40 million for a power play specialist is not a luxury they Sabres can afford. It's not like Briere is at a point in his career where he is getting better. He is not expanding his game and has little interest in rounding out his game to compensate for those nights in which he gets shut down. If Briere is not on the score sheet he becomes a liability. He's not like Roy, Pominville or even Vanek who have proven they can produce offensively at Briere's level and they all work hard in their own end. Complete well rounded players are what the Sabres need in order to succeed. Not aging one dimensional players void of any physical game.

[stenbaro]

This thread is all about the wrong player

 

[tom webster]

nfreeman, you just don't get it. They wouldn't have been the same with him. Even at the legendary $25 million over 5 years the Sabres can't afford to spend that much money on a one dimensional player like Briere. When Briere doesn't score he brings nothing else to the table. He is not physical and plays zero defense. Sure, he is great on the power play. Spending from $25-40 million for a power play specialist is not a luxury they Sabres can afford. It's not like Briere is at a point in his career where he is getting better. He is not expanding his game and has little interest in rounding out his game to compensate for those nights in which he gets shut down. If Briere is not on the score sheet he becomes a liability. He's not like Roy, Pominville or even Vanek who have proven they can produce offensively at Briere's level and they all work hard in their own end. Complete well rounded players are what the Sabres need in order to succeed. Not aging one dimensional players void of any physical game.

 

Assuming I give you the precept that he is a one dimensional player (I'll omit aging because that's ridiculous), wouldn't it make more sense to pay that "power play and shootout specialist" two million dollars per year more then you are already paying one of your third liners if it gets you 3 to 6 home playoff games per year?

[stenbaro]

Assuming I give you the precept that he is a one dimensional player (I'll omit aging because that's ridiculous), wouldn't it make more sense to pay that "power play and shootout specialist" two million dollars per year more then you are already paying one of your third liners if it gets you 3 to 6 home playoff games per year?

ya think he might have helped any in those shootout losses? Nahhh....What am I thinking???

[deluca67]

Assuming I give you the precept that he is a one dimensional player (I'll omit aging because that's ridiculous), wouldn't it make more sense to pay that "power play and shootout specialist" two million dollars per year more then you are already paying one of your third liners if it gets you 3 to 6 home playoff games per year?

Wouldn't it make more sense to put that money towards players that can play all facets of the game? If you are going to pay elite status money to a player shouldn't you get value for the money? Shouldn't that $5-7 million dollar player be on the ice in the final minute when you are up a goal as well as down a goal.

 

We're talking top level money. In the final minutes of the Sharks vs Flames series there was an elite play made by an elite player. Joe Thornton went into the corner against Jarome Iginla. Thornton won the battle and cleared the puck to help preserve the victory and the series. Thornton makes $6.7 million this year. How can you possibly justify paying a player anywhere near that when that player, Briere, wouldn't even have been on the ice. Even if he were on the ice he wouldn't even have considered going into the corner to battle any player let alone a player like Iginla. That is not the type of player the Sabres need. That is not the type of captain the Sabres need. Small Market Economics 101 - you have maximize every dollar you can. Spending top level money without getting top level results is financial suicide and sends the Sabres back on the path they were on pre-Golisano era.

[deluca67]

ya think he might have helped any in those shootout losses? Nahhh....What am I thinking???

Assuming the Sabres would have made it to the shootout? Adding a career minus player would probably hurt more than help.

[nfreeman]

nfreeman, you just don't get it. They wouldn't have been the same with him. Even at the legendary $25 million over 5 years the Sabres can't afford to spend that much money on a one dimensional player like Briere. When Briere doesn't score he brings nothing else to the table. He is not physical and plays zero defense. Sure, he is great on the power play. Spending from $25-40 million for a power play specialist is not a luxury they Sabres can afford. It's not like Briere is at a point in his career where he is getting better. He is not expanding his game and has little interest in rounding out his game to compensate for those nights in which he gets shut down. If Briere is not on the score sheet he becomes a liability. He's not like Roy, Pominville or even Vanek who have proven they can produce offensively at Briere's level and they all work hard in their own end. Complete well rounded players are what the Sabres need in order to succeed. Not aging one dimensional players void of any physical game.

 

Respectfully, if anyone here doesn't get it, it ain't me. These playoffs that are going on? We're not in them, even though we had virtually the same team that won the GD President's trophy last year, minus 3 important players. Briere was one of those 3. This team completely fell apart this year. They had zero leadership, zero mental toughness and zero clutch scoring. Briere provided plenty of all 3 of those qualities. I also completely disagree that he's a liability when he's not on the score sheet. He requires the attention of the defense, which frees up space for his teammates.

 

I like Roy, Vanek and Pommer, but Vanek and Pommer were invisible in the 1st half of this season, and Roy's alleged leadership qualities did not materialize this year. None of those 3 is a physical player (one of the issues you cite with Briere). As for clutch scoring -- Vanek had some nice hat tricks vs. Tampa, but he also had 11 goals in 41 games against 15 playoff teams this year (leaving out Boston). And I don't know where you're getting the notion that Vanek works hard in the defensive zone. Lindy made it clear that he has a long way to go to become a complete player.

 

Briere isn't worth $50 million. He's no Crosby, Ovechkin, Iginla, or even Alfredsson. But he was a big part of the best team the Sabres have had since the early 80s. It seems obvious to me that his departure left a huge hole on the team. You are of course free to disagree, but it doesn't seem to hold water to me to say that we need players unlike him to succeed, when in fact we hugely succeeded when we had him and then we immediately crashed and burned when he (along with 2 other key players) left.

[millbank]

You waste your time in this debate. It is indeed sad that so many given the class that Briere showed as a Sabre, in dealing with team mates, media , fans alike , plus his on ice contributions being part of arguably some of the most exciting Sabre teams ever, simply cannot acknowledge his current success and feel good for the man . Frankly I find it shameful .

 

 

Respectfully, if anyone here doesn't get it, it ain't me. These playoffs that are going on? We're not in them, even though we had virtually the same team that won the GD President's trophy last year, minus 3 important players. Briere was one of those 3. This team completely fell apart this year. They had zero leadership, zero mental toughness and zero clutch scoring. Briere provided plenty of all 3 of those qualities. I also completely disagree that he's a liability when he's not on the score sheet. He requires the attention of the defense, which frees up space for his teammates.

 

I like Roy, Vanek and Pommer, but Vanek and Pommer were invisible in the 1st half of this season, and Roy's alleged leadership qualities did not materialize this year. None of those 3 is a physical player (one of the issues you cite with Briere). As for clutch scoring -- Vanek had some nice hat tricks vs. Tampa, but he also had 11 goals in 41 games against 15 playoff teams this year (leaving out Boston). And I don't know where you're getting the notion that Vanek works hard in the defensive zone. Lindy made it clear that he has a long way to go to become a complete player.

 

Briere isn't worth $50 million. He's no Crosby, Ovechkin, Iginla, or even Alfredsson. But he was a big part of the best team the Sabres have had since the early 80s. It seems obvious to me that his departure left a huge hole on the team. You are of course free to disagree, but it doesn't seem to hold water to me to say that we need players unlike him to succeed, when in fact we hugely succeeded when we had him and then we immediately crashed and burned when he (along with 2 other key players) left.

[carpandean]

Briere isn't worth $50 million. He's no Crosby, Ovechkin, Iginla, or even Alfredsson. But he was a big part of the best team the Sabres have had since the early 80s. It seems obvious to me that his departure left a huge hole on the team. You are of course free to disagree, but it doesn't seem to hold water to me to say that we need players unlike him to succeed, when in fact we hugely succeeded when we had him and then we immediately crashed and burned when he (along with 2 other key players) left.

This paragraph illustrates that the two "sides" of this debate aren't as far apart as it seems.

 

Some points that we all can agree on:

1) The team was missing a veteran presence without Briere or Drury.

2) The team was missing a second, reliable top-two center without Briere or Drury (Connolly could be, but was injured too much; Goose is a third/fourth-line center, Hecht is a top-line winger, neither is a top-line center.)

3) The team was missing a physical presence on defense.

4) Management made some mistakes in their efforts to keep Chris to solve (1) and (2); right decision, poor execution.

5) Management made mistakes in relying on Connolly to fill (2) and just Teppo to fill (1).

6) Management made a mistake in doing nothing to address (3).

7) Briere is a very good offensive forward, who has a great shot, is good at setting up other players and is great on the PP/SOs.

8) Briere is not a great two-way forward, who has some defensive deficiencies.

9) Briere would have been an upgrade to our top-two line centers this year, because we only had a second real one half the time (see #2.)

10) Management should have put money toward (1), (2) and (3), likely through trading off some dead weight (though, I imagine this is easier said than done.)

 

Where we disagree:

1) Was Danny the best use of the money to fill (1) and (2)?

 

The answer to this question depends a lot on a person's assessment of the levels in (7) and (8), and their relative worth to the team. Nobody here will debate that Danny has great offensive skills, just like nobody here will suggest that he will ever win a Selke Trophy. It is hard to find players with the level of offensive skills that he possesses and great defensive skills, though they do exist.

 

The answer also depends a lot on the amount that we actually could have gotten Danny for at the time when we would have signed him. I would still contend that when $5 x 5 was on the table, nobody felt that he was worth that much. By the time people began to think that he was worth that much, his price was higher. However, nobody here knows for sure and we can speculate all we want, but it doesn't make either opinion more correct.

[deluca67]

Respectfully, if anyone here doesn't get it, it ain't me. These playoffs that are going on? We're not in them, even though we had virtually the same team that won the GD President's trophy last year, minus 3 important players. Briere was one of those 3. This team completely fell apart this year. They had zero leadership, zero mental toughness and zero clutch scoring. Briere provided plenty of all 3 of those qualities. I also completely disagree that he's a liability when he's not on the score sheet. He requires the attention of the defense, which frees up space for his teammates.

 

I like Roy, Vanek and Pommer, but Vanek and Pommer were invisible in the 1st half of this season, and Roy's alleged leadership qualities did not materialize this year. None of those 3 is a physical player (one of the issues you cite with Briere). As for clutch scoring -- Vanek had some nice hat tricks vs. Tampa, but he also had 11 goals in 41 games against 15 playoff teams this year (leaving out Boston). And I don't know where you're getting the notion that Vanek works hard in the defensive zone. Lindy made it clear that he has a long way to go to become a complete player.

 

Briere isn't worth $50 million. He's no Crosby, Ovechkin, Iginla, or even Alfredsson. But he was a big part of the best team the Sabres have had since the early 80s. It seems obvious to me that his departure left a huge hole on the team. You are of course free to disagree, but it doesn't seem to hold water to me to say that we need players unlike him to succeed, when in fact we hugely succeeded when we had him and then we immediately crashed and burned when he (along with 2 other key players) left.

If you were saying that about Drury I would agree. It's why the Sabres wanted to keep Drury.

 

If Briere was "freeing up space for his teamates" wouldn't his plus/minus be much better. Being on the ice "freeing up space" while his teammates scored would be a plus?

 

Vanek does have a long way to go. Ruff knows it and the fans know it. At least he works at it. The kid back checks and works in the defensive zone. Is he great at it? No. It will come in time. Briere makes no attempt what so ever. I'll take a younger player with equal, if not better, offensive ability who is going to get better in his own zone.

 

Teams can use a player like Briere. Just not at that price. If the Sabres had money to burn I still wouldn't waste it on Briere.

 

That "hole" in the team was created by more than Briere. You can add :

 

Drury deciding to go to the Rangers.

 

Tallinder's and Lydman's games falling off.

 

The Sabres not having a decent back-up goalie to give Miller rest.

 

Tim Connolly getting injured again.

 

Teppo being out for the year.

 

Max returning to the pre-lockout version of himself.

 

As you can see, even with Briere this was far from being the same team as last season. It's time to let go of the fantasy that if B-Rod was here everything would have stayed the same. It's just not true.

[nfreeman]

If you were saying that about Drury I would agree. It's why the Sabres wanted to keep Drury.

 

If Briere was "freeing up space for his teamates" wouldn't his plus/minus be much better. Being on the ice "freeing up space" while his teammates scored would be a plus?

 

Vanek does have a long way to go. Ruff knows it and the fans know it. At least he works at it. The kid back checks and works in the defensive zone. Is he great at it? No. It will come in time. Briere makes no attempt what so ever. I'll take a younger player with equal, if not better, offensive ability who is going to get better in his own zone.

 

Teams can use a player like Briere. Just not at that price. If the Sabres had money to burn I still wouldn't waste it on Briere.

 

That "hole" in the team was created by more than Briere. You can add :

 

Drury deciding to go to the Rangers.

 

Tallinder's and Lydman's games falling off.

 

The Sabres not having a decent back-up goalie to give Miller rest.

 

Tim Connolly getting injured again.

 

Teppo being out for the year.

 

Max returning to the pre-lockout version of himself.

 

As you can see, even with Briere this was far from being the same team as last season. It's time to let go of the fantasy that if B-Rod was here everything would have stayed the same. It's just not true.

 

I've never said this. What I have said, and continue to believe, is that with Briere, we'd be in the playoffs due to (i) clutch scoring from Briere and (ii) much less pressure on other guys (like Max, Vanek and Pommer and to a lesser extent Tallinder, Lydman and Miller), leading to better performance by them. Given how even the East seems to be, there's also no reason to think we wouldn't have won a round or 2. And I am highly confident that the bottom wouldn't have dropped out the way it did this year. That's why I've said, consistently, that when Drury bailed on us in the fall of 2006 (which was a pretty crappy thing of him to do, IMHO), management should've immediately realized that under no circumstances could they allow both captains to leave, because the consequences would be catastrophic, and should've signed Briere on January 1, 2007 (or at least tried hard to do so).

 

You seem to think the Sabres are better off (presumably in the long term because it's obviously not true in the short term) having let Briere go. I don't agree, and I think the facts support my side of the discussion, but there we are.

 

BTW, here's what the coach of the Habs said about Briere: (Linky)

 

"Every time we face a team, we focus on the best player," Canadiens coach Guy Carbonneau said. "Daniel won't be any different, and we'll also focus on [Flyers defenceman Kimmo] Timonen."

 

Over and out (for now, anyway).