Paul Hamilton on Ryan Miller this morning on WGR

[Done]

How about 70+ games is too many for 99% of goalies to play, regardless of how big or small they are.

 

Do you have any scientific data to back up this recovery time theory, or are you just throwing that one out there too?

 

I can think of plenty of other sports where that "aerobic monotonous exercise" is found.

 

If you look at earlier in the thread, I mentioned I run racehorses. I also explain how that is relevant to the discussion at hand.

 

If playing hockey didn't require any fast twitch muscle to play, then yes...having less weight on would probably be to your advantage. Miller needs that every time he goes down and comes up, as he bursts side to side in the crease, in any sort of scrum, and in making saves...not to mention he has to support his weight in a crouch almost the entire 2 hours on ice. Look at a comparison of two of the fastest guys on the team. Connolly and Afinogenov. Connolly is smooth and can skate close to Max's to speed, but Afinogenov makes bursts all over the ice for the durration of the game. If you look at the two of them without uniforms, Max is a freaking athlete. I have to look, but I would guess Max weighs about 10-12 pounds more than Connolly, but Connolly is built more like the frat brother who plays club sports. He still has some baby fat to him. Max has more potency even with his size.

 

The last time we had this discussion, I was banned by SDS. It seems as if people think I am saying smaller athletes are not any good. I'm not. Why is it that in football you see a guy like Aaron Schobel taking a knee on the sidelines after 5 plays when a guy built like Bruce Smith wouldn't miss a down? The NFL plays once a week for a reason....to let guys recover. By the end of the year you can't find one guy that doesn't have at least a jammed finger, or a stiff back, etc.

 

Like I said in the other post....why do Kerry Wood, K-Rod and other fireballers only pitch 8-15 pitches a game, then almost never get back to back games? It is because they are driving every little bit of energy they can muster out of their bodies to get those 3 guys out. Their bodies NEEDS to recover from that energy expulsion or else they are going to pop a tendon or ligament at worst, or give up 2 HRs at best because they can only get to 93 MPH instead of 100 the next day.

 

I am not a hockey player, but I believe I can make an educated guess at energy expulsion due to my in depth knowledge as a fan and participation in other sports. If the Sabres played 1 game a week....it wouldn't matter, in fact, Miller may have an advantage playing fresh as bigger guys are more sluggish by not keeping up the regiment. That is probably the line of thought you are going with, which is correct in an instance like that. When the team has 4 games in 6 days at times and back to back games many weeks, there isn't that recovery period.

 

Sorry if I snipped before, but I remember the last time this came up and as much as people may think I like hearing myself talk, I don't like hearing myself type!

[Taro T]

OK....want to get burried?

 

The following goalies weighing under 190 have appeared in a combined 13 Stanley Cups

 

Belfour

Hasek

Fuhr

Kiprusoff

Ranford

Richter

 

In those 13 appearances, only 1 time did a goalie play 70+ games in the regular season, and that was Grant Fuhr.

 

These goalies HAVE played 70+ games in their careers. Here is the listing of those seasons, as well as the amount of playoff games they then played in that same year.

 

Belfour

 

'91 74 games 6 playoffs

'93 71 games 4 playoffs

'94 70 games 6 playoffs

 

Kiprusoff

 

'06 74 games 6 playoffs

'07 74 games 7 playoffs

'08 76 games 7 playoffs

 

Fuhr

 

'96 79 games 2 playoffs

'97 73 games 6 playoffs

 

Hasek

 

'98 72 games 15 playoffs

 

Ranford

 

'94 71 games 0 playoffs

 

Richter

 

'98 72 games 0 playoffs

 

Turco

 

'04 73 games 0 playoffs

So....we have this same batch of goalies going to 12 of 13 Stanley Cups when playing less than 70 games

 

This same group when playing OVER 70 games in 13 seasons...made 1 trip to the Stanley Cup...1 Conference final....8 first round losses and 3 missed playoffs.

 

Now, I'm sure that size has nothing to do with it, and neither does games played. It was bad ice.

I don't know what has your panties in a knot about this. I never said small athletes don't have success. Small athletes get into peak condition much quicker than their bigger counterparts. That is a huge advantage. Once the bigger athlete can match the fitness level needed for the contact sport at hand, he is going to be able to perform at HIS PEAK PERFORMANCE with less recovery time needed in between performances than his smaller counterpart. The smaller athlete may in fact posses a HIGHER PEAK PERFORMANCE than the larger counterpart, but needs MORE TIME ON AVERAGE to recover in order to REPEAT HIS PEAK PERFORMANCE.

 

It isn't as simple as Big Good....it may have sounded that way. A 160 lb guy running 20 miles should have an advantage on a 200 lb guy running 20 miles, but that type of aerobic monotonous exercise is really only found in marathons and to a point, soccer.

Dwight,

 

Why are you taking a small sample of an already small sample? (Not necessarily referring to this specific post, but the whole series in this thread.) You are only looking at the stats of the handful of goalies that have played in the Finals AND played 70+ games in the regular season.

 

I'd hazard a guess that if you looked at the entire sample of goalies that have played 70+ games in a season you would see little, if any, correlation between body size and success in the playoffs. I'd also suspect that the data would indicate that far more goalies are unsuccessful (especially when winning a SC is considered success) when playing 70+ games.

 

Teams typically, at least since the 50's, only play a goalie (not named Brodeur) in 70+ games if they are seriously lacking a solid backup goalie or are struggling mightily and can't afford the possible loss to an inferior team that playing the backup could result in.

 

And, as an aside, Fuhr was listed at 201.

[X. Benedict]

An interesting exercise - but I don't think Sawchuck, Worsley, Esposito, Giocomin were 6' or 200 lbs.

 

Ken Dryden was pretty big but never sniffed 70 games a year.

 

I only really remember Esposito and Dryden but every hockey card pack seemed to have Eddie Giocomin.

[Done]

An interesting exercise - but I don't think Sawchuck, Worsley, Esposito, Giocomin were 6' or 200 lbs.

 

Ken Dryden was pretty big but never sniffed 70 games a year.

 

I only really remember Esposito and Dryden but every hockey card pack seemed to have Eddie Giocomin.

 

It was a different game....nobody even worked out back then. Science has partially ruined sports. Look at how many pitchers used to pitch 45 games on 3 days rest. How many football players that would go both ways (offense and defense Ink!). Hockey players didn't wear helmets and thick pads and did just fine. Between the stick, and the bulk of the player these days, they are ready to make shields and cages mandatory. Goalies didn't even wear a helmet....it was a different time all around. In my sport, there were no drugs and nutrients to muscle up a horse or give them pain relief and the top horses would race 30+ times a year....now the top horses run 7 or 8.

 

People are bigger now, steroids are in our food and our medicine cabinets, and because of that, almost every sport is more dangerous with more carnage.

 

If it was all about less weight for endurance....wouldn't a pro football team run 5 wide fly patterns on every play with 160 lb white guys, because by the end of the game the opposing db's would be exhausted and cramped up?

 

If you can find a sports nutritionist that can prove otherwise, I am willing to listen. Like I said, in my sport the doctor wouldn't let a horse take to the track if it was in the shape Miller was in by the end of the season. We haven't even gotten to the internal damage this time around when a goalie loses 7-10 lbs in some games, and he is burning muscle, not fat. Your kidneys are going to start freaking on you, then your liver.....but that's another story for another day.

 

I was taking a stab at his eyes....I see millions of dollars change hands on a regular basis because of a size difference, so I am a bit more confident in this realm.

 

As for Dave saying Fuhr was 201...great...NO goalie under 190 has ever gone to the Cup in the modern era after playing more than 70 games!

I believe all the data is relevant. All you need to do is look at the record of the same player in years that he plays 70+ versus those years that he didn't and you see a huge difference. When this year's goalies were posted, there are guys in the playoffs that played more than 70 and are still alive, but they are bigger.

 

I don't know how deep someone needs to go to prove a point. To me, common sense can see it right in front of me. If someone wants to petition the NHL for statistics and write a thesis to prove otherwise, fine with me. In reality, it's another "Who really gives a crap?" If the thermometer says 70, but I see grey clouds rolling in, I'm going to take a jacket with me. I'm not going to wait to be rained on to come to that conclusion.

[Done]

Here is a read, right from the horse's mouth. Mitch Korn gives the Sabres' philosophy on training their goalies. McKinnie is sited so probably still used on Miller. Korn brings up the points everyone has made here. He says you don't want a fat goalie, but you need to focus on adding muscle to the lower body and torso. The formula looks to be, get as strong as possible to help your short burst of energy needed, but don't lose any flexability. There is no article I can find that really jams home my point, other than saying Brodeur, Pronger and Jagr are the leaders of ice time over the last decade and are the ideal guys for endurance. You can also find guys that say size doesn't matter for a goalie...yet they all get a bad rap for being fat in the old days.

 

Top Secret Sabres Manual taken from Darcy's '86 Astrovan

[hopeleslyobvious]

Dwight,

 

Why are you taking a small sample of an already small sample? (Not necessarily referring to this specific post, but the whole series in this thread.) You are only looking at the stats of the handful of goalies that have played in the Finals AND played 70+ games in the regular season.

 

I'd hazard a guess that if you looked at the entire sample of goalies that have played 70+ games in a season you would see little, if any, correlation between body size and success in the playoffs. I'd also suspect that the data would indicate that far more goalies are unsuccessful (especially when winning a SC is considered success) when playing 70+ games.

 

Teams typically, at least since the 50's, only play a goalie (not named Brodeur) in 70+ games if they are seriously lacking a solid backup goalie or are struggling mightily and can't afford the possible loss to an inferior team that playing the backup could result in.

 

And, as an aside, Fuhr was listed at 201.

 

Hit the nail right on the head.

 

Anyone else think it's a bit odd that we're comparing horseracing to hockey?

 

How does conditioning for a race that lasts a few minutes compare to a game where you spend roughly 2 hours on the ice if you're between the pipes?

[Taro T]

It was a different game....nobody even worked out back then. Science has partially ruined sports. Look at how many pitchers used to pitch 45 games on 3 days rest. How many football players that would go both ways (offense and defense Ink!). Hockey players didn't wear helmets and thick pads and did just fine. Between the stick, and the bulk of the player these days, they are ready to make shields and cages mandatory. Goalies didn't even wear a helmet....it was a different time all around. In my sport, there were no drugs and nutrients to muscle up a horse or give them pain relief and the top horses would race 30+ times a year....now the top horses run 7 or 8.

 

People are bigger now, steroids are in our food and our medicine cabinets, and because of that, almost every sport is more dangerous with more carnage.

 

If it was all about less weight for endurance....wouldn't a pro football team run 5 wide fly patterns on every play with 160 lb white guys, because by the end of the game the opposing db's would be exhausted and cramped up?

 

If you can find a sports nutritionist that can prove otherwise, I am willing to listen. Like I said, in my sport the doctor wouldn't let a horse take to the track if it was in the shape Miller was in by the end of the season. We haven't even gotten to the internal damage this time around when a goalie loses 7-10 lbs in some games, and he is burning muscle, not fat. Your kidneys are going to start freaking on you, then your liver.....but that's another story for another day.

 

I was taking a stab at his eyes....I see millions of dollars change hands on a regular basis because of a size difference, so I am a bit more confident in this realm.

 

As for Dave saying Fuhr was 201...great...NO goalie under 190 has ever gone to the Cup in the modern era after playing more than 70 games!

I believe all the data is relevant. All you need to do is look at the record of the same player in years that he plays 70+ versus those years that he didn't and you see a huge difference. When this year's goalies were posted, there are guys in the playoffs that played more than 70 and are still alive, but they are bigger.

 

I don't know how deep someone needs to go to prove a point. To me, common sense can see it right in front of me. If someone wants to petition the NHL for statistics and write a thesis to prove otherwise, fine with me. In reality, it's another "Who really gives a crap?" If the thermometer says 70, but I see grey clouds rolling in, I'm going to take a jacket with me. I'm not going to wait to be rained on to come to that conclusion.

Bullsquat.

 

I don't know how you are defining the "modern era", but assuming you are counting it at when the league expanded from 6 teams, there are 3 goalies that have won a Stanley Cup after playing 70+ games. Only 2 of those 3 weighed over 180 pounds. If you are defining the modern era as starting around 1990, which is an extremely narrow definition of the modern era, there is only one goalie that has played 70+ and won a Stanley Cup. Considering he is a future HoF'er and plays 70+ every single year, I don't see where that stat is particularily representative of anything.

 

You say you believe the data is relevant, but again, why are you only choosing a VERY small portion of an already small set of goalies, namely, those that have played 70+ games in a season.

 

Only 4 times since '67 has a goalie won the Stanley Cup after playing 70+. This is out of 62 opportunities. Nearly 25% of the time, a goalie that plays 70+ doesn't play a single playoff game. Heck, it's only happened 6 times in the history of the NHL. That out of 92 opportunities, where again ~25% of the time the goalie doesn't play a single playoff game.

 

You've stated that only 20% of the goalies in the league are 180; how does that compare to the rest of the players in the league? I'd expect that is comparable as the Sabres only had 3 regular skaters (4 if you include MacArthur) that weigh 186 or less. Only Mike Ryan was the proverbial 180, as Roy and Pomms both are listed at 186.

 

The analysis you have performed is very interesting. However, IMHO, the sample set you have chosen is not nearly comprehensive enough to be able to make the conclusions you draw.

[Done]

Did anyone bother to read the report that came directly from the Sabres?

 

 

Here is a statistic for you all......40% of the posters in this thread have a stick up their a$$.

 

 

To quote Cartman...."F you guys, I'm goin home."

[outlaw16511]

Like all those big, beefy runners who win marathons? :chris:

 

 

That's a sport of endurance not strength. I don't think right now Ryan Miller is strong enough physically to handle 70 plus games per season but few goaltenders are. If he wants to play 70 plus he needs to add muscle to endure the beating his body takes over 70 plus games.

[Bmwolf21]

That's a sport of endurance not strength. I don't think right now Ryan Miller is strong enough physically to handle 70 plus games per season but few goaltenders are. If he wants to play 70 plus he needs to add muscle to endure the beating his body takes over 70 plus games.

Setting aside the idea that he needs to add muscle to endure a 70+game season (which would likely impact his quickness and agility and probably hurt him more than help him, plus there is no proof whatsoever that it would help him play 70+ games) you're missing my point completely in focusing on one throwaway post in the middle of this madness. Whether you want to believe its' simply a matter of endurance, strength or a combo of both (which is what it is) the bottom line is he doesn't NEED to play 70+ games, and that playing 70+ games is more likely going to make a serious impact on his playoff readiness and sharpness.

 

Again, the bottom line is there are very few goalies who can stay sharp and focused for 70+ regular-season games and still have enough in the tank for up to 28 more games in the playoffs. If Miller is a 60-65 game guy, that's fine with me. I couldn't care less if he is a 3.00, .895 regular season goalie if he can turn it on in the playoffs and get us the 16 wins.

[hopeleslyobvious]

That's a sport of endurance not strength. I don't think right now Ryan Miller is strong enough physically to handle 70 plus games per season but few goaltenders are. If he wants to play 70 plus he needs to add muscle to endure the beating his body takes over 70 plus games.

 

How is not having enough gas in the tank to play more games not a matter of endurance?