Penguins Moving?

[Taro T]

That's a great sentiment. Then I assume you'll also be OK with either paying $5000 per ticket to go to the games or be OK with a team salary of $18mil, filled with one good player and a bunch of AHLers who end up with 45 points each year.

 

Let's face it, we may not like it, but professional sports are a business, there is no doubt about it. And at the end of the day, just like any business, you either support the business or move on.

 

In the perfect world, that's a great sentiment about being dead set against franchises moving. But that's just not reality, it's a theory that has a nice ring to it. Would you say the same thing if it were your business that were losing money big time?

 

Let's say that you are a Sabres fan who ended up buying the team. That would indicate that you must have been pretty smart to make that much money. How many years of bleeding money would you take before you gave up and started thinking about moving? For me, it'd be something you have to think about.

 

I don't like the Pens moving because I went to college in Pittsburgh and although I never liked the Pens, it's a great hockey town with a lot of passion for the team. But if the municipality and fans won't support the team, it's time to move.

 

Look at even other small markets like Edmonton. Rexall Place, although old, is a nice facility and one in which the Oilers can compete within the new salary cap era.

 

And ajflutie, I disagree with the fact tha because there are too many Texans, they won't catch on. I was a high school senior in Dallas when the Stars moved there. I went to about 5 games, and the people sitting around us kept asking me how I knew so much about the ball. When I mentioned to them that it's called a puck, they would Beavis giggle.

 

About 8 years later, I was at a game. Similar type people are now pissed when the Stars were doing the left wing lock. Yes, the same people that didn't know how to spell puck were able to identify the left wing lock. Not a grand concept, but the fact that they knew, and knew about the history of players, etc. means that a winning franchise that does things right will succeed.

 

Dallas was successful so that helps. But the reason they were successful is that they recognized that they needed to build excitement among kids, the kids that become paying customers in 10 years. They have built so many ice rinks that now, about 30 or 40 high schools have varsity hockey! That would have been unheard of when I moved to Dallas in 1987. If the Pens move to Houston and use the Stars blueprint (and they have a player better than Modano already), from both an on-ice and off-ice standpoint, you will have rednecks who want to discuss the intracacies of cycling the puck in 10 years. I promise - I've seen it in Dallas!

I don't think a team would be successful in Houston, not because it's full of Texans, but because the support for pro franchises there is adequate at best. When the Oilers were in the midst of a 7 year playoff run, the ONLY reason any non-Steelers / non-Cowboys games sold out is one of the local grocery stores would buy up the last few thousand seats. This in a low 60k seat stadium, in the land where football is king, in the 4th largest city in the country, with a team that made the playoffs 7 consecutive years.

 

When the Aeros moved into the Summit and ticket prices went up, I was told by people that lived there (that was before my time there) that attendence for the Gordie Howe led team plummeted.

 

Dallas has a different fan base than Houston does, and I don't see Houston being nearly as successful at generating fan interest as Dallas has been.

[wjag]

That's a great sentiment. Then I assume you'll also be OK with either paying $5000 per ticket to go to the games or be OK with a team salary of $18mil, filled with one good player and a bunch of AHLers who end up with 45 points each year.

 

Let's face it, we may not like it, but professional sports are a business, there is no doubt about it. And at the end of the day, just like any business, you either support the business or move on.

 

In the perfect world, that's a great sentiment about being dead set against franchises moving. But that's just not reality, it's a theory that has a nice ring to it. Would you say the same thing if it were your business that were losing money big time?

 

Let's say that you are a Sabres fan who ended up buying the team. That would indicate that you must have been pretty smart to make that much money. How many years of bleeding money would you take before you gave up and started thinking about moving? For me, it'd be something you have to think about.

 

Look at even other small markets like Edmonton. Rexall Place, although old, is a nice facility and one in which the Oilers can compete within the new salary cap era.

 

 

I'm sorry.. I'm just not buying this... This is the rant of every major league sports team in America these days... Boo hoo.. I can't compete.... I need, I need, I need...

 

If you won't give it to me, I'll extort you. If you refuse to pay, I'll move and sucker some other city into paying me what I want. I'll sell permanent sucker licenses and luxury boxes. As soon as I perceive another owner is getting a better deal than me, I'll do it all over again. I don't need to be held responsible for my own business decisions. I'm a business and I'll take it where ever I please.

[Seth Greenstein]

I'm sorry.. I'm just not buying this... This is the rant of every major league sports team in America these days... Boo hoo.. I can't compete.... I need, I need, I need...

 

If you won't give it to me, I'll extort you. If you refuse to pay, I'll move and sucker some other city into paying me what I want. I'll sell permanent sucker licenses and luxury boxes. As soon as I perceive another owner is getting a better deal than me, I'll do it all over again. I don't need to be held responsible for my own business decisions. I'm a business and I'll take it where ever I please.

 

Will you continue buying season tickets at $150 per seat while the owner breaks even and you watch 19 year olds who shouldn't even be in the AHL but should be in college? If so, then you are the rarity. You can keep saying that you aren't buying this, but many people said that they weren't buying the notion that the world was round. You can keep arguing until you go blue in the face, but at the end of the day, these people who own sports teams, while you may think are idiots, are clearly smarter than you and I, because they make more money on interest while sleeping than I do in a year. Do I think the owners tell whatever story they feel is necessary, yes. But, I also believe that teams can easily be a money losing thing, and I don't care how much you like sports, losing millions of dollars is never fun.

 

And your premise that all these teams do is extort until they get what they want, do you know why? Because the fans will pay for it. And they pay for it via season tickets and voting for public money. I live in Houston, and the city has allocated almost $700MM of public money for stadiums. It was brought forth by the politicians, but it was voted for by the people.

 

Can you give me real proof about why you don't believe that teams like the Pens lose money? Or is it just that you don't want to believe it? If you put the math together, especially in a sport like the NHL where there is no national TV revenue of any value, it's VERY easy to lose money. The NFL, maybe not - there I will agree that the money shows that teams don't lose money, they just don't make as much as others. But in the NHL, it is VERY likely to lose money.

[wjag]

Will you continue buying season tickets at $150 per seat while the owner breaks even and you watch 19 year olds who shouldn't even be in the AHL but should be in college? If so, then you are the rarity. You can keep saying that you aren't buying this, but many people said that they weren't buying the notion that the world was round. You can keep arguing until you go blue in the face, but at the end of the day, these people who own sports teams, while you may think are idiots, are clearly smarter than you and I, because they make more money on interest while sleeping than I do in a year. Do I think the owners tell whatever story they feel is necessary, yes. But, I also believe that teams can easily be a money losing thing, and I don't care how much you like sports, losing millions of dollars is never fun.

 

And your premise that all these teams do is extort until they get what they want, do you know why? Because the fans will pay for it. And they pay for it via season tickets and voting for public money. I live in Houston, and the city has allocated almost $700MM of public money for stadiums. It was brought forth by the politicians, but it was voted for by the people.

 

Can you give me real proof about why you don't believe that teams like the Pens lose money? Or is it just that you don't want to believe it? If you put the math together, especially in a sport like the NHL where there is no national TV revenue of any value, it's VERY easy to lose money. The NFL, maybe not - there I will agree that the money shows that teams don't lose money, they just don't make as much as others. But in the NHL, it is VERY likely to lose money.

 

First off, I invest in Center Ice and the NFL package because I don't live in the Queen City. Paying 150 per game strikes me personally as high. My suspicion is if a team thinks they can get it, they will charge it regardless of the quality of the product on the ice. See NYR....

 

I never said they were idiots. I have never believed they were. They are shrewd, greedy business men. What I said was they are extortionists. That I firmly, uneqivocably believe.

 

Take the Sabres.. Did they lose money or did they have a corrupt owner? Did he make good business decisions? Did he choose to put a poor product on the ice or were they just bad at evaluating talent? How does a wounded, left-for-dead franchise rebound in a few short years with a change of leadership? How do you go from bankrupt to success. These guys have a lot of control over where they choose to spend their money.

[sabregoats]

it is a capitalist world and the sports world is the same. You go to the profit, it sucks as a fan, but that is the way it is.

[Orange Seats]

 

Let's say that you are a Sabres fan who ended up buying the team. That would indicate that you must have been pretty smart to make that much money.

 

 

Assuming a necessary link between wealth and intelligence is a major mistake, and not at all reflective of the realities of wealth in this country.

[Seth Greenstein]

Assuming a necessary link between wealth and intelligence is a major mistake, and not at all reflective of the realities of wealth in this country.

 

I understand that it's not necessarily true. But it is true in the majority. I'm not saying that if you lined people up from smartest to dumbest that the smartest would all be the richest. I know that's not the case. But you don't become a multi-millionaire without being smart (or in a few cases, related to the right person).

 

And in the majority of cases, pro sports team owners are smart guys who are managing their teams in a way to make a profit. I understand that in the Sabres case, that was not the case at all. There have been examples where that's not true. But generally, pro sports owners are smart individuals who are managing their teams to make a profit, and if that means moving the team, they not only have the right, but the expectation.

 

I'm usually not a supporter of owners and somehow become one in this conversation, but I do support the Pens ownership's right to explore moving. For those who have been to Mellon Arena, you will know that they have every right to look around because at the end of the day, they are not competitive there in Pittsburgh in that arena. And won't be without a new arena. Whether it's in Pittsburgh or not.

[sabreman]

if you guys have ever been to a rochester americans game,you would see how passonite they are about there team.

I think that would be nice!

[SabresFan526]

I think a lot of people are kind of throwing around blame for a possible Penguins move, but they aren't really looking at the root cause. I feel like this has degenerated into a debate of rich vs. poor, good vs. evil and how owners of NHL teams fall in one camp or the other. The root cause of the problem is really the CBA and Gary Bettman.

 

I think we all agreed that players' salaries were skyrocketing, so they needed to be reigned in. Additionally, I think everyone agreed that the rich poor gap was way too much, so they needed to be brought closer together via the salary cap. But, here's where everything breaks down for the CBA and the NHL. There is supposedly revenue sharing, but that's only on common revenue. The real only common revenue comes from a TV deal. Well, the NHL went with Versus, and they have a terrible TV deal. Even the CBC / TSN TV deals don't really generate that much revenue that can be shared across the NHL. So, combined, there is very little revenue that is shared. So, the only way teams can generate revenue is through ticket and merchandise sales.

 

But, that revenue does not guarantee profitability. For example teams have payroll, administrative staff, and one of the bigger expenses being the lease payments on the arenas. Consequently, the bigger markets can afford to charge more money for tickets, people will come to the games, and ultimately they make a profit regardless of whether their team makes the playoffs or not (see the New York Rangers). The small market teams that play in older arenas cannot generate the revenue to the same level of the big markets, additionally, they cannot charge the same price for tickets if they want people coming to games, so they still end up losing money at the end of the season unless their team makes a long playoff run. The Sabres are a classic example of this. The Sabres made a $3 million profit last year. Well, that's because they had 3 home games in the first round, 2 home games in the second round, and 3 home games in the third round. Those 8 games is what allowed them to be profitable, otherwise the Sabres would have also lost money because they are in a small market.

 

The Penguins are another example. Even though the Penguins have passionate fans and sell out every game, they will not make a profit at the end of this year unless they make a deep run in the playoffs. The main reason is because they have an old arena. A new arena with luxury suites generate more revenue for teams and thus give them a better shot at profitability. In order for the owners of the Pens to make a profit at the end of the year they either need to win the Stanley Cup in Game 7 after playing 7 games in every single round of the playoffs up to the Cup Finals or get a new arena that will provide more revenue streams for them.

 

Now, some of you may disagree with this or not, but the owners of teams have made huge investments to buy these NHL teams, and they are entitled to make a return on their investment. At the end of the day, this is a business, and the owners have invested in these businesses. An NHL team is not a charity or non-profit organization that these guys put their money into. Turn this around, you invest in a company or a stock of a company. Well, that company starts losing money and the value of your investment goes down. What do you do? Would you not be upset because you are losing money? Would you not try to find a way to recoup your investment?

 

Given that, the owners of the Pens have a right and obligation to make the most of their investment. And, the blame here is not on the owners at all. If the city of Pittsburgh really wanted to keep the Pens, they would do whatever it takes to keep them in the city. The Mellon Arena is actually older than 3 Rivers, yet the Pens still don't have a new arena. Why? Because the city doesn't care. I'm not talking about the Pens fans, but the city government of Pittsburgh. They don't care, and they are not doing enough to keep the Pens. And by the way, after everything Lemieux has done for this team, he deserves to make money from his investment. He only bought the team because they owed him some $35 million in back payments, which they couldn't afford. And, he has never turned a profit since owning the team. And, he's been begging for a new arena since he first got the team in bankruptcy court. And the city has done absolutely nothing in the 6-7 years he's owned the team. He finally has to threaten moving the team before the city even gives a damn. Given the Pens situation, I do not blame them at all for looking at other options cause this city is not doing what it takes to keep the Pens. KC is not charging a lease and giving the Pens an equity stake in the new arena. If the city wants the Pens to stay in Pittsburgh, they have to really provide some reason for the team to stay.

 

Ultimately, the root cause of this problem is Gary Bettman and the CBA. All the lockout did was cut costs for the NHL. It didn't really even the playing field. What it did was put all the teams at pretty much the same cost structure, but it does not even the playing field in terms of profitability because there is no common league revenue that is shared amongst the teams. Until the NHL follows a pure communist structure where any and all revenues are distributed evenly throughout the league, this is going to continue and the small markets will continue to have a tough time if the cities don't support them with new arenas and other revenue streams.

[Taro T]

I think a lot of people are kind of throwing around blame for a possible Penguins move, but they aren't really looking at the root cause. I feel like this has degenerated into a debate of rich vs. poor, good vs. evil and how owners of NHL teams fall in one camp or the other. The root cause of the problem is really the CBA and Gary Bettman.

 

I think we all agreed that players' salaries were skyrocketing, so they needed to be reigned in. Additionally, I think everyone agreed that the rich poor gap was way too much, so they needed to be brought closer together via the salary cap. But, here's where everything breaks down for the CBA and the NHL. There is supposedly revenue sharing, but that's only on common revenue. The real only common revenue comes from a TV deal. Well, the NHL went with Versus, and they have a terrible TV deal. Even the CBC / TSN TV deals don't really generate that much revenue that can be shared across the NHL. So, combined, there is very little revenue that is shared. So, the only way teams can generate revenue is through ticket and merchandise sales.

 

...

You are mistaken on how revenue sharing works under the new CBA. Chapter 49 goes into great detail of how it actually works. (You can find the CBA on the NHL's and the NHLPA's websites.)

[Seth Greenstein]

You are mistaken on how revenue sharing works under the new CBA. Chapter 49 goes into great detail of how it actually works. (You can find the CBA on the NHL's and the NHLPA's websites.)

 

Could you expound on the key points for the lazy like me? :)