Jim Lorenz Made An Interesting Point Last Night

[bob_sauve28]

He was talking about the Roy/Vanek/Stafford line and said words to the effect that since Max has been out Roy and Vanek get to hold the puck more and it has increased their play making abilities. He was saying, basically, they are better without Max there. Sure seems that way. Both have been red hot since Max went down. And Stafford is, well, you know, doing great.

 

And that segways nicely into a point I want to make. Hasn't this spate of injuries opened up many new options for the Sabres in regards to keeping both Drury and Briere? Do we really need Max and Kotalik around soaking up millions of dollars when we have kids ready to come in on the cheap and produce? I was a big defender of Kotalik but now that I have seen what we have waiting in the wings I sort of see him as an obsticle to progress. A speed bump if you will. After the season I would consider 'rolling these guys over.' Trading them for young players who can help us in a couple of years, like the way Ryan came here for Stu Barns. Don't we have to make room for these kids next year? They are ready for the NHL, why not have our cake and eat it to? Play the kids and sign both our superstars.

[deluca67]

He was talking about the Roy/Vanek/Stafford line and said words to the effect that since Max has been out Roy and Vanek get to hold the puck more and it has increased their play making abilities. He was saying, basically, they are better without Max there. Sure seems that way. Both have been red hot since Max went down. And Stafford is, well, you know, doing great.

 

And that segways nicely into a point I want to make. Hasn't this spate of injuries opened up many new options for the Sabres in regards to keeping both Drury and Briere? Do we really need Max and Kotalik around soaking up millions of dollars when we have kids ready to come in on the cheap and produce? I was a big defender of Kotalik but now that I have seen what we have waiting in the wings I sort of see him as an obsticle to progress. A speed bump if you will. After the season I would consider 'rolling these guys over.' Trading them for young players who can help us in a couple of years, like the way Ryan came here for Stu Barns. Don't we have to make room for these kids next year? They are ready for the NHL, why not have our cake and eat it to? Play the kids and sign both our superstars.

 

The depth of the organIzation has given Regier plenty of options. I'm not sure if keeping Drury and Briere is one of them. I don't think you can pay two players the amount of guaranteed money Drury and Briere are expected to make. Especially if you are going to make it a four or five year deal.

 

As fans it's easy for us to sit back an say pay every player the maximum just keep the team together. Regier on the other hand has to think long term. He not only has to take in account next years cap but also three or four years down the road. He has to account for Vanek and Miller's next contracts.

 

You really need to take a close look at Tampa Bay. They invested heavily in three players. Three great players. But they really can't afford much else.

 

Also take in account that Buffalo is still a small market with limited revenue streams.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

I think we need to keep Briere, let go of Drury and Kotalik and maybe Max, we can get something in the open market for those two....... :beer:

[bob_sauve28]

The depth of the organIzation has given Regier plenty of options. I'm not sure if keeping Drury and Briere is one of them. I don't think you can pay two players the amount of guaranteed money Drury and Briere are expected to make. Especially if you are going to make it a four or five year deal.

 

As fans it's easy for us to sit back an say pay every player the maximum just keep the team together. Regier on the other hand has to think long term. He not only has to take in account next years cap but also three or four years down the road. He has to account for Vanek and Miller's next contracts.

 

You really need to take a close look at Tampa Bay. They invested heavily in three players. Three great players. But they really can't afford much else.

 

Also take in account that Buffalo is still a small market with limited revenue streams.

Ya, I'm all over the place on this issue. One day I want both, next day I don't. When are Vanek and Miller up for new contracts? I'm sure Briere and Drury will want at least 3 year deals, I'm guessing, so you are right that Regiere has to plan for that. I think Tampa's problem was goaltending. They couldn't keep the Beulin wall or whatever his name was and they went right down the toilet. Still, I think we have no choice but to clear away some veterans--Max, Kotalik, or even Briere or Drury--to make room for these young guys. I'd rather keep a Briere or Drury over Max, and Max would bring some young prospects in a trade. And Kotalik, IMO, just got bumped by the younger players. I don't see a place for him on the team next year.

[wjag]

I would think there is a high degree of angst for injured players seeing that the team played well without them and might have even gotten better.

[evil_otto]

Ya, I'm all over the place on this issue. One day I want both, next day I don't. When are Vanek and Miller up for new contracts? I'm sure Briere and Drury will want at least 3 year deals, I'm guessing, so you are right that Regiere has to plan for that. I think Tampa's problem was goaltending. They couldn't keep the Beulin wall or whatever his name was and they went right down the toilet. Still, I think we have no choice but to clear away some veterans--Max, Kotalik, or even Briere or Drury--to make room for these young guys. I'd rather keep a Briere or Drury over Max, and Max would bring some young prospects in a trade. And Kotalik, IMO, just got bumped by the younger players. I don't see a place for him on the team next year.

I believe that Vanek is an RFA after this season and Miller just signed a three year deal just before this season began.

 

I think Briere is going bye-bye after this season. It would be great if the Sabres could keep both Cookie Monster and Drury, but yeah, it would probably hurt the team in the long run.

[deluca67]

Ya, I'm all over the place on this issue. One day I want both, next day I don't. When are Vanek and Miller up for new contracts? I'm sure Briere and Drury will want at least 3 year deals, I'm guessing, so you are right that Regiere has to plan for that. I think Tampa's problem was goaltending. They couldn't keep the Beulin wall or whatever his name was and they went right down the toilet. Still, I think we have no choice but to clear away some veterans--Max, Kotalik, or even Briere or Drury--to make room for these young guys. I'd rather keep a Briere or Drury over Max, and Max would bring some young prospects in a trade. And Kotalik, IMO, just got bumped by the younger players. I don't see a place for him on the team next year.

 

I think that will happen separate from the Drury/Briere issue. Your idea was 100% correct. You can convert Kotalik and Max into some more Michael Ryans'. Draft picks and prospects are the life blood of this franchise.

 

There is also a chance that Zubris is in the Sabres long term plans? You move Max, pick up a prospect and a pick then move his money to Zubris.

 

If the Sabres are going to break the bank for one player?For me it still has to be Drury. An all around game is more valuable than a one dimensional player. No matter how well that player is going.

 

I would think there is a high degree of angst for injured players seeing that the team played well without them and might have even gotten better.

 

I think Spacek and Paillie have the most to worry about. Paestch and Stafford have proven their worth.

[bob_sauve28]

I believe that Vanek is an RFA after this season and Miller just signed a three year deal just before this season began.

 

I think Briere is going bye-bye after this season. It would be great if the Sabres could keep both Cookie Monster and Drury, but yeah, it would probably hurt the team in the long run.

Vanek is probably worth $5 million himself, so that does complicate things. I just don't see how Max fits on the team anymore making $3 million if we expect to keep Vanek and one of the two captains.

 

If the Sabres are going to break the bank for one player?For me it still has to be Drury. An all around game is more valuable than a one dimensional player. No matter how well that player is going.

Absolutely. Drury is the man!

[SabresFan526]

I was kind of saying the same thing in a different thread. Maybe it's just me, but I feel that Drury and Briere, in addition to scoring, really bring a lot to the team in terms of leadership and intangibles. I love how Briere is a small guy, but is so freaking competitive, he fights past everything. His play as a small guy with a huge heart inspires the rest of the team, and I feel like that's needed for this team. I mean, it's kind of like the embodiment of Buffalo, it's a small town city, but with the heart of a champion. And, then there's Drury. All he does is win. He wins at every level. He epitomizes the word clutch. In addition, he's a legitimate Selke guy, which we need on this team. He usually plays against a team's top line, and he's the leading goal scorer on the team (tied with Vanek as of today). He also is crucial to our PK. Look how bad the PK has been in the last few games without Drury. He also wins important faceoffs, which we need in the playoffs. I think these 2 guys are what we need to build this team around.

 

Now, given the success of the youngsters, in my mind, they have not taken the place of Briere and Drury. They have taken the place of Kotalik, Max, and Connolly. Remember, the kids have been playing really well, but this is not the playoffs, and that's a whole different situation. We need the leaders come playoff time if we expect to be competitive every year in the playoffs. I guess the decision Regier needs to make is, who does he build this team around? Does he build the team around Drury, Briere and Miller? Or does he build this team around Miller, Kotalik, Max, and Connolly? Personally, if it were up to me, I'd rather unload some mid level salaries to keep the big guys and build around them than unload the big salaries and build around the mid level guys. That's just my opinion. The draft is on June 23, and the Sabres don't have a lot of draft picks for this year's draft, so we'll see what Darcy does on draft day and see if he unloads some salaries to keep the big boys and push the youngsters into more permanent roles next year. That's how I feel.

[bob_sauve28]

 

Now, given the success of the youngsters, in my mind, they have not taken the place of Briere and Drury. They have taken the place of Kotalik, Max, and Connolly. Remember, the kids have been playing really well, but this is not the playoffs, and that's a whole different situation. We need the leaders come playoff time if we expect to be competitive every year in the playoffs. I guess the decision Regier needs to make is, who does he build this team around? Does he build the team around Drury, Briere and Miller? Or does he build this team around Miller, Kotalik, Max, and Connolly? Personally, if it were up to me, I'd rather unload some mid level salaries to keep the big guys and build around them than unload the big salaries and build around the mid level guys. That's just my opinion. The draft is on June 23, and the Sabres don't have a lot of draft picks for this year's draft, so we'll see what Darcy does on draft day and see if he unloads some salaries to keep the big boys and push the youngsters into more permanent roles next year. That's how I feel.

Connelly is a real question mark. He is sucking up some serious dollars and who knows how well he will play. I suppose next season he will be his time to prove himself fit or not. I really don't see him being a major factor in this years playoffs

[Bmwolf21]

If the Sabres are going to break the bank for one player?For me it still has to be Drury. An all around game is more valuable than a one dimensional player. No matter how well that player is going.

Keep banging that drum, DeLuca...Drury is one of the most complete players the franchise has had in some time. Not discounting Danny's offense, but IMO, there is no way they should keep Briere over Drury.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

Keep banging that drum, DeLuca...Drury is one of the most complete players the franchise has had in some time. Not discounting Danny's offense, but IMO, there is no way they should keep Briere over Drury.

 

I think Briere is the one to keep............Would love to keep both of them............Maybe if we can trade Kotalik, and a couple of other, like Max, we could keep Drury and Briere and fill the other spots with Stafford and Ryan...........That could be an option..........We alread traded Marty.......... :beer:

[Screamin'Weasel]

Vanek is probably worth $5 million himself, so that does complicate things. I just don't see how Max fits on the team anymore making $3 million if we expect to keep Vanek and one of the two captains.

Absolutely. Drury is the man!

Vanek is an RFA this off-season. He won't get $5 million. That said, I think he will not be a Sabre after this season. Here is what I see happening:

• The Sabres offer Vanek the standard 1 year contract they give RFAs at the league mandated minimum raise.
  
• Philadelphia offers Vanek a 3 year, $8 million contract.
  
• Sabres either meet this offer and lose eslewhere or let Vanek go and get the picks/prospects.
  

The Sabres cannot afford to meet these offers from other teams to our RFAs. I think this off-season you will see alot of this by teams with cap space hitting teams with good/proven RFAs. This tactic will force teams near the cap to either pay more than they can afford or lose decent young players. If we start meeting offers, other players will have to be let go. Now add in the fact that if other teams know you are over the cap and need to move players to trim salary, the value of premiere players just dropped significantly.

 

I hope I am wrong, but I really see it happening.

[jad1]

I don't think that the Sabres are going to have a huge salary cap issue for a couple more seasons. Biron made @ $2.1 million. Numminem, who looks replaceable this season, makes @ $2.8 million. The salary cap could increase by $4 or $5 million.

 

So by replacing Numminem with Paetsch, the Sabres could have $9 or $10 million to sign Briere, Drury, and a few RFAs who aren't eligible for arbitration.

 

Much of the whole Briere/Drury negotiation is out of Regier's hands. Are there GMs out there who are willing to pay players on the wrong side of 30 $7 million a year? In the new NHL, older players (like Foresberg) aren't the guys signing $7 million contacts. It's more likely these guys will get offers of around 6 million, which Regier could match.

 

Regier signed a bunch of players to 3 year contracts last year. So the cap probably won't blow up for another 2 years. Of course, if the cap increase another $10 million in two years, the Sabres will be fine.

 

So would you bring back the entire team next year minus Numminem and Biron? Would you gamble two more Cup runs against possible salary cap jail in two years?

[SDS]

Vanek is an RFA this off-season. He won't get $5 million. That said, I think he will not be a Sabre after this season. Here is what I see happening:

• The Sabres offer Vanek the standard 1 year contract they give RFAs at the league mandated minimum raise.
  
• Philadelphia offers Vanek a 3 year, $8 million contract.
  
• Sabres either meet this offer and lose eslewhere or let Vanek go and get the picks/prospects.
  

The Sabres cannot afford to meet these offers from other teams to our RFAs. I think this off-season you will see alot of this by teams with cap space hitting teams with good/proven RFAs. This tactic will force teams near the cap to either pay more than they can afford or lose decent young players. If we start meeting offers, other players will have to be let go. Now add in the fact that if other teams know you are over the cap and need to move players to trim salary, the value of premiere players just dropped significantly.

 

I hope I am wrong, but I really see it happening.

 

I see it differently.

 

I know the world is full of stupid people like Bobby Clarke, but I think you are going to see the league adjust from the 1st couple of years. No one who has broken the bank for any player has really experienced overwhelming success with them. Chara has not made Boston a contender and I think the GM's will see this. I see salaries for top players being reigned in the next couple of years as other teams seek to copy our success.

[Screamin'Weasel]

I see it differently.

 

I know the world is full of stupid people like Bobby Clarke, but I think you are going to see the league adjust from the 1st couple of years. No one who has broken the bank for any player has really experienced overwhelming success with them. Chara has not made Boston a contender and I think the GM's will see this. I see salaries for top players being reigned in the next couple of years as other teams seek to copy our success.

When I said 3 years, $8million, I didn't mean $8 million per year, I meant $2.66 million per year over 3 years.

[ko12010]

I think we need to keep Briere, let go of Drury and Kotalik and maybe Max, we can get something in the open market for those two....... :beer:

 

 

 

No possible way you let go of a Drury. He exemplifies what it means to be a Buffalonian with his hard work, blue collar style, obviously superstar level skills, and humble attitude. In my opinion, he is one of the few superstar professional athletes that doesn't have a head three times the normal size sitting on his shoulders.

 

People will say to this "well Drury isn't exactly a superstar" I say, yes he is and the reason anyone might think differently is because of the type of person he is. I love Briere and Drury, but Danny benefits more from the strong play of his teammates than Drury (please don't misconstrue that I don't want Danny here, he is awesome and I wish he could be a Sabre for life.) Drury is the type of guy you lock up and Danny is the type of guy you have to let go if it comes to it (I feel like such a jerk writing this)

 

Didn't Danny have his chance to stay here for less pay? He's the one who publicly stated the need to keep last year's team intact but his arbitration ruling directly lead to the non signing of his best linemate JP Dumont.

 

We need to try to keep them both at as low a cost to the future of this orginization as possible. (Not just money, but young prospects need to be resigned.)

[X. Benedict]

I see it differently.

 

I know the world is full of stupid people like Bobby Clarke, but I think you are going to see the league adjust from the 1st couple of years. No one who has broken the bank for any player has really experienced overwhelming success with them. Chara has not made Boston a contender and I think the GM's will see this. I see salaries for top players being reigned in the next couple of years as other teams seek to copy our success.

 

There are already so many top heavy teams in the league that I think you are right.

First you have to look at the teams that can't be big players on the free agent market,

already there are 25 teams within 4 million of the cap this year.

 

Players and teams also watched the arbitration process were both the team and

the player lost. The team got no return and the player ended up with less money (e.g. JP Dumont).

 

The other thing is the St. Louis model of rebuilding which is going to be copied.

You sign aging stars that have more post-season value than seasonal value.

The Market for Forsberg, Tcuchuk, Geurrin, etc got pretty ridiculous.

 

These are the cap figures this year and I put in bold the teams that may possibly be

big players in free agency:

 

 

New Jersey cap locked

Boston already over invested

Philadelphia Likely to make a move

Buffalo Nope- except for possibly their own

San Jose they have their own to take care of

Toronto Free Agency has never helped them

Colorado It's a possibility.

Chicago $43.8M $2.15M

Montreal If they dump Souray in the offseason.

Detroit Goaltending may be more of an issue

Dallas They don't need free agents.

Tampa Bay They don't need another player they need another line

Vancouver Nope

Ottawa Nope

Calgary Nope

Minnesota Nope

Anaheim Nope

N.Y. Rangers They are stuck with Jagr - If Shanahan doesn't recover they may have money

Phoenix Nope

Atlanta Nope

Los Angeles They are already young

Florida

Edmonton Laugh, cough, sputter.

Columbus

Carolina I don't think they'll overpay though.

Nashville They have enough horses, and lines

N.Y. Islanders You never know with these lunatics.

St. Louis It is possible

Pittsburgh They may lose money even with a playoff run.

Washington But when is the last time Washington did anything exciting

[bob_sauve28]

When I said 3 years, $8million, I didn't mean $8 million per year, I meant $2.66 million per year over 3 years.

You don't think a team would offer Vanek $5 million a year? I do, he is one of the best players in the league

[JujuFish]

[*]Philadelphia offers Vanek a 3 year, $8 million contract.

I would sign Vanek at that price in a heartbeat. He is already third on the team in points per game (T-40th in the league, .98 P/G), behind only Max (1.08, T-21st) and Danny (1.22, 10th). He has continually gotten better since he has joined this team, in all aspects of his play.

[deluca67]

The salary cap could increase by $4 or $5 million.

 

You have to remember that the Sabres revenue needs to increase so they can afford the cap increases. Golisano made a commitment to this team because it is close to a Cup. Don't expect the Sabres to be hugging the cap every season.

 

Tough decisions are to be made. But that's in the future. Right now let's all have fun.

[X. Benedict]

You don't think a team would offer Vanek $5 million a year? I do, he is one of the best players in the league

Vanek has to play two more years before he is eligible for arbitration as a restricted free agent.

[Screamin'Weasel]

I would sign Vanek at that price in a heartbeat. He is already third on the team in points per game (T-40th in the league, .98 P/G), behind only Max (1.08, T-21st) and Danny (1.22, 10th). He has continually gotten better since he has joined this team, in all aspects of his play.

I would too, but you forget a few things: as an RFA they don't need to offer that much and, imo, won't with as close to the cap as they are now. They will most likely do the 1 year, minimum mandated raise this off-season. As for the 3 years, $8 million figure, what do you dump to clear up the cap space? Obviously if Briere and/or Drury go, there is plenty to spare, but if they make a play for both in anticipation of dumping Nummy's salary amoung others to do it, they will likely still be close to the cap. Lastly, this was just an example number I tossed out. Teams could potentially offer more.

 

From: X. Benedict

New Jersey cap locked

Boston already over invested

Philadelphia Likely to make a move

Buffalo Nope- except for possibly their own

San Jose they have their own to take care of

Toronto Free Agency has never helped them

Colorado It's a possibility.

Chicago $43.8M $2.15M

Montreal If they dump Souray in the offseason.

Detroit Goaltending may be more of an issue

Dallas They don't need free agents.

Tampa Bay They don't need another player they need another line

Vancouver Nope

Ottawa Nope

Calgary Nope

Minnesota Nope

Anaheim Nope

N.Y. Rangers They are stuck with Jagr - If Shanahan doesn't recover they may have money

Phoenix Nope

Atlanta Nope

Los Angeles They are already young

Florida

Edmonton Laugh, cough, sputter.

Columbus

Carolina I don't think they'll overpay though.

Nashville They have enough horses, and lines

N.Y. Islanders You never know with these lunatics.

St. Louis It is possible

Pittsburgh They may lose money even with a playoff run.

Washington But when is the last time Washington did anything exciting

As mentioned before, the cap will likely increase. Also, do you know how many of the players on each of these teams are under contract for next year? How many will be UFAs? RFAs? Released? Traded? Arbitrated?

[bob_sauve28]

Vanek has to play two more years before he is eligible for arbitration as a restricted free agent.

Can other teams make him an offer that Buffalo has to match?

[Screamin'Weasel]

Can other teams make him an offer that Buffalo has to match?

Yes, they can. If they do not match, he goes to play with th offering team and they give the Sabres some combination of picks/prospects.