Archie Lee

This kind of summarizes it for me. The trade did not work out as intended at the time, but has worked our positively in the long run. I understand that some would argue that the trade can't possibly be deemed to have worked out positively because the team has failed to have any on-ice success (playoffs) since. To me though, this is like saying that none of our player acquisitions (draft picks/trades) have worked out for the past 12 years.

I don't think it takes more mental gymnastics to factor in what was or wasn't theoretically possible at the time of the trade, than it does to not factor in that we don't yet know what Thompson and R. Johnson will accomplish as Sabres. O'Reilly never wins a Conn Smythe with us. Tage might. As you said earlier, we likely just see it differently.

I would say that trading O'Reilly was part of a series of bad decisions made in the Botterill era. The 1st bad decision of that era was the actual hiring of Botterill. Then the hiring of Housley as head coach. Then, the complete dismantling of the team's toughness through the loss of Carrier in the expansion draft followed by the trading of Foligno, Deslauriers and eventually Kane (not critiquing any of those as individual moves, but collectively it was a a bad strategy). Next was the O'Reilly trade, but by that point it was too late. We were dead last in the NHL the season before the O'Reilly trade. Remember that Botterill is the guy who, when given a 2nd chance to hire a head coach, chose Ralph Krueger. It was a hopeless situation. In hindsight, we are fortunate that Botterill got lucky and Thompson turned out to be a legit goal scorer/point producer and R. Johnson looks like he will be a good long-term addition on the blue-line. In the context of how bad things were and, more importantly, how incredibly unlikely it was that a turnaround of any significance could have happened under Botterill, I struggle to say that the outcome of the trade was bad. We were not turning it around with O'Reilly unless we fired Botterill that off-season and that was never happening. I don't think it is close to the worst trade in team history. Andreychuk, Puppa and a 1st for Fuhr was terrible. Calle Johansson and a 2nd for Ledyard and Malarchuk turned out awful. We drafted 4 Hall of Fame players between 1982 and 1987, completely lost patience and traded them all for a sum that got us a 1st round win over the Bruins in 1993. Yuck.

I will be stunned if we get anything of value for Olofsson. If he was worth anything to other NHL teams he would have been traded months ago. He is a scoring winger who can't get in the line-up ahead of a sheltered 18 year-old on pace for 9 goals, on a team that struggles to generate offence that has a wretched power-play. And he makes 4.75 million per year. That said, if he were to be moved it would not be at all stunning if he scored at a 30 goal or better pace wherever he goes.

Reinhart is a lesson in patience. It's a generalization (there isn't necessarily a lot of crossover), but today we have fans lamenting our lack of patience with Reinhart while wanting to move-on from players on the youngest team in the NHL. In fairness, I think fans can be forgiven for wanting results and for not always being able to recognize the difference between a player who is not delivering due to their own shortcomings v. a player who is being held back by his environment (losing culture, poor talent around him, bad coaching). Reinhart was good here, but in his best season as a Sabre he put up numbers that almost exactly match what Mittelstadt is putting up this year. Of course, the inflection point was probably when Botterill hired Housley. A more-experienced, veteran coach with a winning track record at that moment likely changes the trajectory of the franchise and of the careers of many players.

I'm glad Quinn is back and no question he makes the team better. We were 3-2-1 in the 6 games before he came back as well. We have played at a 92 point pace over the past 16 games. The team was trending up and playing a bit better already after a 1-5 stretch from Nov 25 and to Dec 5. We have a chance over the next 6-7 games to move our trend line heading into the post all-star stretch. I think it is fair to criticize Adams. Quinn was out, Tuch was banged up (per Ray's hot-mic moment) and the organization had lost faith in Olofsson. There were players available (Toffoli, Zucker, Kerfoot) who could not only have bridged the gap but have been upgrades. Instead we opted to give the opportunity to the prospect who most rose to the challenge in camp. I love Benson, but we needed more from that position this year than a 10 goal pace from an 18 year old who needs occasional sheltering (as Quinn and Peterka needed at times last year).

1.) Speaking of false narratives, there is literally no hand-wringing in this thread about the loss of Cederqvist as an individual. 2.) I wholly agree with you that it is not the case that our top-prospects are entirely skilled offensive players with little or no forechecking ability/defensive ability/and grit. Indeed, most of our top forward prospects, with Kulich being the exception maybe, have shown a good to strong two-way acumen. None seem afraid to forecheck when playing at their current appropriate level. It is true that none are full on "bangers", but none are solely offensive minded, perimeter players who are fearful of going to tough areas. What they will be at the NHL level is not yet known.

I’m not close to bent out of shape over this. But it does perhaps speak to the issue of having too many bodies within a certain age-range. Without trading an established forward, there is little room for our high-end prospects in Buffalo. And the sheer # of prospects that we have, means there is insufficient oxygen for the b and c level players to grow and develop. This not only means that few will make it to Buffalo but also that they will have diminished to no value.

The good news is there are comparable players on that list who are not among the games most highly paid. Mittelstadt, as an RFA whose overall #’s don’t quite match his 5v5 #’s, should slot in below Thomas/DeBrincat and above the current Guentzel and Hyman deals. The bad news is, based on how the 1st half of this season has gone, we will likely go into next season as a bottom 10 team with our highest paid 8 players (current roster) making nearly 70% of the cap and with only one of them, Mitts, coming off a good season.

The Ice/Wild WHL franchise is in their first year in Wenatchee. I’m sure their management would love to go for it, but long-term it maybe makes more sense to try and build something bigger for 3-4 years down the road. Maybe they keep everyone and take a run if Benson had been sent back. I’m not a huge fan of trading 16-19 year old kids mid-season. Savoie has been through a lot of moves though and players of his status get the best billet homes. He will be taken care of. Moose Jaw will be loaded with fun players to watch in the 2nd half.

The Sabres are in a somewhat unique situation in that they have two waves of young players, each of which is worth getting excited about. Somewhat arbitrarily, you can separate these players by whether they were acquired pre-arrival of Adams and post-arrival of Adams. Pre-Adams: Luukkonen, Dahlin, Samuelsson, Jokiharju, R. Johnson, Thompson, Mittelstadt, Cozens. Adams: Levi, Power, Strbek, Krebs, Quinn, Peterka, Savoie, Östlund, Kulich, Rosen, Benson, Wahlberg. The pre-Adams group is, for the most part, ready as individuals to play their roles on winning NHL teams. Collectively they are young though. Outside of Skinner, Tuch and maybe Greenway and Clifton, there are no older veterans in higher-end roles to support this group. Indeed, we are largely supporting the pre-Adams group with even younger players acquired by Adams. If the players in the pre-Adams group are not yet near to reaching their full potential, then how long will it be until a critical mass of players from the younger group reaches their potential? If the plan is to slowly integrate the even younger players into the line-up, then fans will be asked for not just patience but for extreme patience.

Reasonable people would say we are in year 3 of the Adams/Granato plan. Maybe we are approaching the end of year 3, if you consider that Granato's 3rd anniversary as head coach is coming up March 17th. Prior to this season, the trajectory was positive. This season has thus far been a setback. My opinion, based on how the team has played for 2.5 months, is that there is little hope for a turnaround this season. We will see if Adams makes moves that reflect a belief that a change in approach is needed or if he will stay with a "trust the process" approach. I think Adams is kidding himself if he thinks the 9 years that preceded his arrival should have no influence on how he manages the team.

There is nothing inpatient about making smart roster moves or coaching changes in an effort to win more hockey games. There aren't many people who are actively calling for Adams to do something dumb and shortsighted. I do agree that patience is important. Those who want to dismiss the positive results Adams has rendered and ridicule him for having a 10-15 year plan are being rash. Things were very bad (frankly, as bad as it can get) when he took over and up until this off-season we had seen steady positive progression under Adams. He should rightly get credit for that. I think it would be a mistake though, for Adams to think he can operate in a vacuum where the 9 years out of the playoffs that preceded his arrival are meaningless to the fans and to the players on the team. Dahlin, Thompson, Mittelstadt are in year 6 of this. Incredibly, Cozens is in year 4 of it. Losing is what lead to some players not "wanting to be here". He is fooling himself if he thinks the same can't happen with the current group of players.

Good coaches get fired all of the time. Lots of fans want us to bring in Bob Woods who was fired because the Wild special teams were terrible. Doesn't mean he's a bad coach. Sometimes the sum equals less or more than the parts.

I don't doubt that bringing up Appert was determined to be the least disruptive way to proceed. I do think it was an unusual decision though and that it does speak to the lack of NHL experience on our coaching staff. I think that most NHL teams have an assistant or two on staff whose presence would make the idea of bringing up the AHL coach for the weekend a non-consideration.

As a fan, one can only judge coaching by outcomes. We aren't in the room, don't see what is being taught or how the lesson is communicated. I have no reason to think that any of our coaches are incapable or are out of their league as individuals. The desired outcome has not been there though. Matt Ellis worked as a development coach on the same Sabre staff as Granato (under Krueger). I don't know that there is any reason to think that Granato has had any issue with Ellis being on his staff. We don't know what discussions occur internally. For all we know, Adams may have been interested in flipping Ellis/Christie to Rochester for Peca/Alpert and Granato said no (I'm not saying this occurred; but what do we know about internal discussions that may or may not have occurred?). The bottom line is, regardless of who made the decisions, it isn't working. When things aren't working you can let the people you have entrusted to the job adjust and try and do better, or you can replace the people. For now, Adams is opting for the former over the latter.

I’ve been pretty critical of Adams for how his decisions have, in my view, contributed to this season being derailed. I see no need to be hyperbolic though. His isn’t a 10 year plan. He did not have the option of making moves to try and “remain” competitive. The team had not been competitive for a decade.

I think it is unusual that they wouldn’t just have someone on staff takeover. This is likely going to be for tonight and tomorrow I would guess, so maybe with it being two games they wanted a more experienced voice. Also, my recollection is that Adams coached the game or games that Granato missed during the Covid year and that Alpert was brought up to assist.

My 5th would be Wahlberg. I understand that they all won't make it longterm. But if the plan is to just let it play out and see which ones make it and which ones fall by the wayside, then we have a long road ahead of us.

I started this thought in the Olivier Nadeau thread, and then realized it maybe belonged more here. Nadeau being assigned to the ECHL is not remarkable. I'm not personally too concerned with the fate of any particular prospect. Nadeau will get ice-time and hopefully he finds a role in Rochester next year. His situation does though, perhaps, speak to the issue of us having too many prospects. This is particularly the case when one considers how young our current base of NHL players is. Barring a trade or two and assuming none of our UFA forwards are brought back, 10 of our 12 forward positions are spoken for next year. The two open positions would be 4th line wingers flanking Krebs. If we bump Greenway to the 4th line, that opens one middle-6 forward spot. Only Greenway is a UFA after next season. We have, I think, 5 prospects (aside from Benson, who I still consider a prospect) who project as top-9 forwards. Again, barring trades, and assuming not all will develop as hoped, we won't have room for all of them at the NHL level. This is even taking into account that their arrivals can be staggered over the next 2-3 years. Never mind the reality that adding a couple of 20-21 year old forwards to what is already the NHL's youngest roster, is not exactly what the Sabres need if they are trying to become a playoff team. What's the point of this post? If the Sabres don't even have room for their top forward prospects, what space is left for the B, C and D level prospects to develop? There is no oxygen left for Rousek, Nadeau, Poltapov, Cederqvist, Neuchev, Kisakov, Marjala, Huglen, Constantini, Richard, ..., etc.. Of course, the odds of any one of these players developing into a middle-6 NHL player is not high. But there is no room for them here, even if they do. Is Adams serious about winning? I think he is. The path to getting there is becoming harder to find though.

Brind'Amour? Or any experienced coach? Brind'Amour is a long shot I agree. Not absolute zero but near zero. There would be experienced coaches willing to come to Buffalo though, I'm certain of that. There are currently three coaches available who coached in the NHL playoffs last season (Gallant, Woodcroft and Evason), a guy who won a Stanley Cup 5 years ago (Berube). Some will get snapped up by other teams of course, but there will be more who join the list of unemployed (the list of high-end coaches who may be vulnerable to being fired after an early playoff exit is actually pretty long). There won't be enough chairs for everyone. If we want an experienced coach with a history of 45+ win playoff seasons, we will get one so long as we are willing to let Donnie go and pay what it would cost to bring in an experienced winner.

I think only one move would be needed. Jost and Johnson are out to make room for Thompson and Girgs. If Johnson comes back up, that is when another player would need to be waived, traded or sent down. I don't see a Comrie trade as making sense for anyone. While I do think he would be better on a team that plays with more structure (he probably should have just stayed in Winnipeg), his performance hasn't warranted interest from other teams. We likely would need to retain 1/2 his salary and I'm not sure that makes sense for us. The return we would get, even at 50% retention, might not warrant using one of the three retention spots. As we head towards the deadline, there might be players who would return more with retention (E. Johnson, Jokiharju, Girgs, Olofsson, Okposo, Robinson).

This must be a short term paper transaction. It leaves them with only 6 d-men on the 23. Something else will need to give in the next few days.

Every underperforming player on this team gets an asterisk from me for this season. This team was not, intentionally or otherwise, built to be successful. That is becoming clear. I do think there is a role for nearly every player on this team on a playoff squad, but collectively and with the current coaches they are not good enough. Until we get serious about icing and employing an overall playoff level team, there will be players who disappoint and who will be unfairly ridiculed for things that are largely out of their control. Power is currently in that group. I think of the nights when Eichel would be caught looking disinterested on the back check and people would think he is lazy. Or, the other nights when he would race back into his zone only to be lost in space, picking up nobody, leaving people thinking this guy can’t defend. Funny how those issues largely disappear on a veteran cup contending team with a top-level NHL coach. I don’t want to see any particular coach fired or any particular player traded. I just want to see the GM make moves and decisions that send the clear message that it is time to win. If we don’t do that soon, then we are just setting up Dahlin, Thompson, Cozens to be the next Eichel, Reinhart, Risto.

In what will almost certainly be our 13th consecutive year out of the playoffs, I won't make excuses for the team's record or performance or for management's failure to act. It is possible though that it just isn't realistic to expect this roster (the youngest in the league, with inconsistent goaltending), to play consistently good defence against NHL competition. It might just be that the team is not yet ready and able to play that particular way night in and night out. This perhaps supports your first point, that the roster as constructed is fatally flawed, but only if one views making the playoffs this season as a critical accomplishment (which most fans do, but which doesn't appear to be the case for the organization). I come back to what I've stated earlier, the core of the team's spine (top four centres, top four D, two best goalies), went into the season with an average age of 22 (Thompson the oldest at 26). We are 3-4 seasons away from that core being in the collective prime of their careers. It is not shocking to me that we struggle to consistently play structurally sound defensive hockey.