Thorner

Yup, ignore the last 3 is *exactly* what I’ve done, if you read all my endless posts in this discussion /s I’ve talked about the recent 3 a lot, multiple times. Don’t know how many ways I have to say it. ^ not only that ..but you literally said “assuming they same highs and lows we’ve seen thus far”. Jack’s career points per game, all 8 seasons, is .93. Getzlaf’s career is .88. You said “assuming the same highs and lows going forward.”. Jack has averaged 60 games a season, inclusive of all 8. Getzlaf averaged 72 games a season. Ive specifically posted in this thread about how Jack averaged 70 per, before the neck. And I specifically said in my post addressing yours, “if he gets back” I don’t think I’m doing any ignoring

We can blame Jack all we want but everyone knows in their heart of hearts the team and management was dysfunctional as well during the lions share of his time here. The fact they TANKED TO GET HIM proves the ineptitude preceded him. So blame Jack, do it. But blame both. Oh ic that makes sense thanks for the clarification

I agree with this mostly and good post but “good players for 8 years” thing is objectively false. The teams were the rats ass his first few years after the scorched earth tank And it got WORSE when Jack actually got good ie wasn’t on his elc ages 18-20 anymore. That’s when we dealt ROR and played Johansson at 2C - the year jack became point a game Saying those teams were actually good would be extreme revisionist history

Through first 5 seasons: Getzlaf: 363 games 339 points Eichel: 354 games, 337 points come on now everything went off track when he hurt his neck. So far

There’s a few 60 gamers early in his career to the tune of Ryan Getzlaf being a great comparable (even stylistically not far off, also both big bodied playmakers), until that big “21” shows up on Jack’s dB page. Like intimated earlier - if he gets back to 65/70 a year, if he can match Getzlaf’s will, could have an answer They even both had 82 in 77 early on and then a 90 point (78 in 68, COVID) season right after. Striking actually

As mentioned, not on tv so sadly will miss this one. Though, all is not lost: I will be watching the Royal Rumble If Cozens isn’t playing, I bet it’s cause he drew #30

Ya man I guess. If we are really getting into the nitty-gritty to the point where, it’s not a case of you/one suggesting, potentially, “oh we should have kept Eichel!” if he just explodes going forward, ie we are accepting he needed to he moved, and we are really on pins and needles waiting on Jack’s future career, spanning years of our lives, to evaluate whether Adams should have gotten, what, an extra second round pick?...gotta tell ya, not really for me. We know Adams got a good deal. We know from the time of the deal there was a ton of questions around Jack’s health, the constraints on the negotiating process KA had cause the new team needed to OK the surgery. If it could have been a better return, I struggle to think it significant. For me, the book on the trade is written. If Tuch assassinates Tage at practice tomorrow, maybe I’ll change my mind but I already made my peace with the deal, by way of KA being absolutely correct about the deal NEEDING to be made, while I thought we were receiving 50 point Tuch. If Tuch goes back to 50 point Tuch I’m still Tuching myself in with a smile on my face by way of vastly improved team. You may not (see: do not) agree but, I can only express my truest thought: the book on the trade is written for me. Adams receives full marks. Court adjourned. I’m done. (We’ll pick up the Eichel discussion Tuesday at 3:07pm, coffee will be on)

Is your contention about “playing” or “playing well” or both? No point even going back and forth on the latter. As for “playing”, if he’s got the will to be out there, and I think he does, I don’t see him hanging them up that early. There is a long history of players who’ve battled through injuries...continuing to do so until a more advanced age. Probably also depends if it’s nagging injury after nagging injury or if it’s a complication like the neck, something very serious that keeps cropping up. He’s not even at the top end of the list of “mainstay injury prone” guys in the league - Eichel has averaged 60 games per 80 since coming in, Zach Bogosian for example has averaged 47. If Eichel’s neck can be seen as a 1-off, (not saying it can, I truly don’t know yet/need more data) distinct from all the other random stuff he’s had crop up seemingly endlessly (it’s his only surgery, correct? I could be missing 1), he’s actually averaged 70 games per year, a reasonable number, any season in question where his disc issue isn’t factored in. (21 games in 2020-21, 34 games in 2021-22) To me, if I had to guess, if the neck DOES prove to be distinct, and he returns to the “generally gets banged up but is good for a solid 65-70 a year”, I don’t see a short career. If the neck set back is the first in a long line of similar set backs, I could definitely foresee an unfortunate, earlier than expected (when drafted) end to his career.

Could also see him putting it all together during a playoff run one of these years. (Not a talent comparison) like the way Peter the Great would have an injury riddled season, sit out most of it, but manage to keep himself glued together for a 20ish game stretch in the playoffs I mean, if a team he’s on ever makes the playoffs, I guess

But not ever here. Speaking of great music, Gord Downie: we miss you. - - - As for the OP, I’m more of an -the insult Comic Dog fan. I’ll show myself out of the thread

Where’s @Curtat? Haven’t seen him post in a bit

I don’t think the evaluation from the Sabres perspective takes one iota of a hit the better he plays. Eichel-in-Buffalo and Eichel-in-Vegas both posses their own unique variable(s) and Eichel having success in Vegas does not mean said success could have been had here. My stance here remains that Eichel *could* have worked out in Buffalo, had things been handled better, in many facets, from the start. But I believe it to be the case that the situation reached a point of no return where it could not be salvaged in all likelihood. Tage Thompson becoming great hasn’t changed the evaluation of the Blues trade, from the Blues’ perspective. The universe where Thompson remains a Blue is murky, vague and unreadable. The trade already worked for them: trades and signings and draft picks are a means to an end, they achieved the end. No Blues fan would consider taking back the deal. The Cup isn’t awarded for GM efficiency, by the quarterback-rating GM equivalent: it gets awarded for what actually happens. The Sabres traded Jack Eichel and got better, pretty quickly. Those are the results. I’d have to have ridiculous hubris to claim to foresee *better* results supposing a different course of action from the GM. Just like one would have to have ridiculous hubris to question the blues deal as a blues fan by saying something like, “we should have kept Tage, we might have TWO cups!”. This isn’t the way the world works, we don’t live in a vacuum starting point with carefully controlled variables. This is why I never bought into the “we need to see Eichel fail to make the trade even better!” Hard pass. We already won. Go fix yourself Jack, I’m rooting for you

Win tonight, with a Pens loss Sabres are officially in a playoff spot

Lineup looks a fair bit different with even a singular significant F injury, which we’ve been abnormally lucky to avoid. A strong argument for why Adams is still “open to improvement”. If the price is right, we could always use more good players. - - - “No tv and no game makes Thorny go something something”

I wasn’t supposing you wish ill will. I was supposing you’d prefer he didn’t establish as a no-bs elite player moving forward. Given the choice, would you rather he become a top 5 player in the game, or not?

Even *movie theatres* (sadly imo) are going the way of the above, nowadays. Less seats, less screens, more communal areas with games and bars. They just opened up what I think is the second largest movie theatre in Canada here called the Cineplex Junxion, and ya. Everything is shifting from “designed and tailored to a singular, focused experience” to multi-purpose entertainment centres

I am evaluating his career as a whole: I’m just sticking with my analysis of the first 5 seasons within. When the trajectory is satisfying for what still amounts to the majority of his career, I refer to the most recent stretch as disappointing, yet not the sum. It’s an inherently logical stance, the only thing that can be asked for any argument: if he fails to get back in gear, and the “disappointing” seasons outnumber the good, and he fails to establish as an elite or even VERY GOOD player, ill simply shift my stance at that time. I think I’ve proven that I’m hardly staunch to a point out of vain bias. I’m sitting here typing out that the last 3 have been disappointing 🤷‍♀️ You can correct me if I’m mistaken, but I think it’s fair to say we’ve now ventured far into the thickets of semantics at this point - how we are framing the first 8 years the differentiating factor, due to our own personal leanings, while our actual analysis of each individual season seems pretty close. No? Our stances have been converted to the same language - I know this because if Eichel continues to amount to more less this, in a few years my stance will have aligned with yours. And if Eichel turns it around, presumably you’d shift yours. I don’t agree he’ll be done at 34 going on 35. I think he’ll still he playing and playing well. Perhaps because we disagree on our varying desires to see this happen, we’ve reached a reasonable impasse. We’ll have to wait and see

It’s regulation wins first then regulation OT Even “Wins” outright comes before head to head.

Honestly, I can’t see us staying in the race much longer. I’m sorry. It seems inevitable- we’ll soon be so solidly in a playoff spot that using the term “race” would feel wildly misplaced. They are all well shaven and clean cut though

I’M GIVING IT ALL SHE’S GOT, CAPTAIN! The ship can’t hold any more good prospects!

4 assists in 5 games? #notgenerational 😸

The thing about Crosby is he’s such a worker. Speaking of motivation. No one more driven. He’s the greatest grinder of all time. We can haggle on talent all day but the career Crosby is putting together, it’s top 10. Generational, whatever: he’s just Great. To me you measure greatness by career output, that’s why Brady is the GOAT but he’s like, the furthest thing from a generational talent. You raise a good point with McDavid. To me, he’s clearly a generational talent. No one has ever played the game at the level he has, as good as he has (not saying relatively, I’m not saying he’s the greatest ever) but athletes these days are better, they just are. Quicker, faster, stronger, better trained. Every sport. Jim Brown today would be an average running back. You’d have to time travel Gretzky forward and have him be born today with today’s advancements in health and training for him to compete on the ice surface with McDavid, but if you time travelled McDavid backwards, as is, he would quite literally destroy everyone out there. Again, this isn’t greatness, just talent. McDavid is more “purely talented” than Crosby, but Crosby has had the better career. In a list of top 100 players ever, Crosby still finishes ahead right now and it’s not close to changing for me. Tough pill to swallow being such a team game but championships are a prerequisite for greatness in perception, always have been.

I hear Matty Moulson is available if the price is right, as well

Putting “argue” in quotations shows you are my kind of people

Again, I’m not haggling with you over him failing to live up to even elite, of late, in fact I made that point in another post: that he’s not generational because he’s not generational, but if he doesn’t solidify as “elite”, that’s on him: he has the talent for that. As I explained to dudacek, my position isn’t swayed/your argument isn’t made stronger, relative to the point I’m making, by saying “8 years” when I didn’t reasonable expect elite within the first 4. You could just as soon say “Jack Eichel hasn’t stabilized as elite within his first 26 years on earth”. Adding years to the total to make it look more impressive isn’t relevant to me, cannot stress this enough: if that’s your preferred method of framing, go for it. But it stuck out like a sore thumb within the presence of dudacek’s usually excellently formed arguments and I’m saying the same to you. Under the prism of not expecting generational (you can grant me this stance, yes?) but rather elite, Jack’s development curve over his first 4 years, linear upward trajectory, culminating in a 5th year, staring at age 22 (you know, the age Dahlin is) where he *did* amount to elite is exactly what I wanted to see. I cannot stress enough that what’s interesting to me is the most recent stretch where he very clearly needs to find a way to get things back on track. - - - If he never does, and just remains a “good” player in need of the right fit, of course I’d reframe my stance on his overall career over time: it would become a disappointment relative to what I think he could have been. This isn’t the terminology I’d use thus far. When the majority of his career thus far has been on a satisfying trajectory and then reached what appears to be a significant rocky stretch/chance of plateau, my view incorporates exactly that: he has had a disappointing stretch since exactly the onset of covid. Whether he can salvage his “elite” career needs to be seen. The burden of proof is squarely on him, but I’m not casting judgement on his career so far, labelling it “disappointing”, I’m just not close to there. He’s 26.